Am I the only one who finds Wheel of Time overwriten and drawn out?

[Shryke]

It's almost as if they don't trust Rand and aren't completely on his side....

[Prince Who Was Promised]

How would any of us react in the same situation?

I'd flip shit.

Rand WAS awesome.

When he was proactive and not reactive.

When he didn't whine endlessly about "harming women" and act like women should be wrapped up in cotton wool and kept somewhere safe.

In his defense, I'd wrap up the only thing close to me in cotton wool and keep it somewhere safe as well. But yes, some of his "woman protection" did annoy me, I'll admit that.

When he didn't sit and shake paws like a good little dog whenever someone with boobs asks him too.

Example?

When he wasn't involved in some stupid 4 way relationship.

True.

Yes characters with flaws are good, but whining is not a good flaw. Whining is a shit flaw which ruins characters.

If you were like what...22?...and you discovered that you had to save the world, people all over the world wanted to use you, you had been trapped inside a box, became (basically) friendless, and had the voice of a man who has been dead over 3,000 years AND you had to fight the ultimate demon (which can't be killed) or the world would be destroyed...I'm curious how you would react.

Some rulers with far less pressure on their shoulders get stressed out...small wonder the man with the universe resting on his doesn't get a break. At all. Ever. 'Till he's dead.

The fact that characters never talk to each other has gone beyond stupid into the realms of pure crap.

Rand turns up at Caemlyn, mentions Mat and makes a wrong statement about where he is. But Elayne, Aviendha and Nynaeve don't -ing bother to correct him and 3 BOOKS later Nynaeve still hasn't told Rand her and the idiot duo managed to get Mat stuck in Ebou Dar with the -ing Seanchan.

Yeah...no deffense for that one.

[fionwe1987]

This is all pretty subjective, but I felt Martin made his characters more complex, grayer and more susceptible to subtle changes than Jordan, allowing for some incertitude about who was thinking what or what would anyone, including the heroes, do in a given situation. I'm talking in general, mind, like you know Nynaeve will not kill a guy or another in cold blood from the get go, while Catelyn, it depends. It also ties in that Jordan I think has sharper contrasts between his characters, his are more principled, more bitchy, more scoundrely, more flamboyant, more eeeeeevil, whatever, than Martin's, and he takes pains to highlight it, while Martin never highlight it but lets it seep through plot development.

As I said, it's pretty subjective, but I cannot really see them as similar

Yes, it is subjective, and also, given that you have read only five of the books, you have fewer instances of ambiguity to choose from, and that might well be colouring your impression as well.

Again, subjective, I never felt there were too much description in WoT for some reason (maybe because I stopped at book 5, or because I read Balzac or Hugo, whatever), but I was acutely annoyed from the first book that what was told us never seemed to match what was shown us, be it that actions and narration were at odds, or that there was no action to back up the narration. I will take two examples (and let's not discuss how I'm wrong to perceive them like that, I'm just illustrating my perception):

I agree that the description isn't too much.

As for what you were told in the first book that never panned out... given that much of this is from the perspcetive of naive village teens, what pans out later is meant to be in discord with those ideas. And the dissonance between what is perceived and/or projected and what is in fact true continues to be a major theme of the series.

first, the supposed matriarchal society. We are told it is one, and what are we shown? Arrogant ineffectual females that need to be saved by males. Sniffing and stare contests while men actually do something even if they don't wield a percent of those women's supposed power. And more, the actual behaviour patterns are not different one iota from the ones in our patriarchal society, women have to be protected and saved and given gifts and are even the object of (self!) objectification.

Secondly, the supposed great minds. THE wall-banger for me, the amyrlin (or whatever, that head woman at the tower) sending three mostly untrained, well known novices, alone, behind thirteen (or was it eleven?) rogue experienced aes sedai, who have already tried to kidnap those three and almost succeeded, who now have powerful amulets of power and who the novices don't know? *headdesk* This is exactly not what the best ruler in the country would do. Yet we are told it's cool and perfect and afteralldidn'titturnoutok? Yeah right, when the only one I can trust is that young guy with potential still in cop academy, I don't send him into mafia turf alone to try to beat and arrest a whole gang of rogue cops.

I won't discuss either of these much, except to say that not once were we told this is a matriarchal society, nor were we ever told that Siuan is the perfect leader. Whatever we know of the society and this character comes from their own actions.

Jordan leans more towards LOTR in that the PoV are (almost, not sure) sympathetic ones that basically have all the same agenda in the end. He gives PoVs to people who know a lot, who are at the forefront, almost exclusively. Martin gives PoVs to more subdued characters who are there to witness what the movers and shakers do, and his PoVs (so far) do not share the same agenda at all, nor are they all sympathetic, or indeed, heroes. I think it is even more obvious with AFFC and that it's going to get more prevalent.

No. Just no. I cannot see how Moridin, Graendal, Sevanna, Sammael, Elaida... can be seen as sympathetic characters. They certainly have no common goals. Even within the subset of the main protagonists, while the end goal is the same, their ideas on how to get there are scarcely in accord.

Many a PoV is from lesser players, people who are merely a part of the flow.

Maybe this perception is because fewer such PoVs were present before book 5 (maybe, not sure of this). But the first thing I felt when I read aFFC was that Martin too was doing what Jordan did wrt. PoVs.

But yet again, it's how I view it.

Yeah, we know how it would end :)

:D

[Werthead]

Jordan leans more towards LOTR in that the PoV are (almost, not sure) sympathetic ones that basically have all the same agenda in the end. He gives PoVs to people who know a lot, who are at the forefront, almost exclusively. Martin gives PoVs to more subdued characters who are there to witness what the movers and shakers do, and his PoVs (so far) do not share the same agenda at all, nor are they all sympathetic, or indeed, heroes. I think it is even more obvious with AFFC and that it's going to get more prevalent.

Yeah, I have to go with Fionwe on this one. Admittedly it doesn't start until Book 5 or so, but the 'bad guys' start getting quite extensive POV chapters starting there and continuing through to the end of the series. Sammael, Moridin, Alviarin, Suroth, Graendal and a lot more. We also get POVs from characters who are more in the middle, such as Pedron Niall and Elaida, and arguably Rodel Ituralde (who isn't a bad guy by any means but isn't well-disposed to Rand after the Dragonsworn spent a year and a half tearing up his home kingdom).

2) Others have found that being an ardent (and outspoken) WoT fan is a lonely calling on this forum, and they find forums more suited to their interests.

I'm not too sure about this. There are a lot of people who are broadly positively inclined towards the series, even if just out of nostalgia for a book they read as a teenager, and I think there's a fair bit of constructive criticism of the series from people here as well, for example from people willing to look at the structural complexity of the series and where it went off the rails (arguably Jordan was confronted by the same complexities as GRRM and Erikson and took a different path, trying to write his way out of them rather than rewriting and re-editing around them as with GRRM or simply ignoring them as with Erikson), although we get lots of tiresome "Jordan just wanted money!" arguments.

The most vitriolic anti-Jordan diatribes generally come from people who haven't read all the books. In fact, the fewer books people have read, the more vitriolic the hatred seems to be.

3) Finally, and this is my personal opinion, WoT is not as thematically rich as the other works and so inspires less consideration along those lines; almost all the significant discussions I've seen regarding WoT over the years (as epitomized by rasfw-rj's magnificent FAQ) are about plot and setting details. And those plot and setting details are fun -- the too-young-Sitters, who-killed-Asmodean, what do various prophecies mean, etc. -- but I find that RJ's basic themes are pretty straightforward, generally admitting of less ambiguity than in the significant post-RJ fantasies. The most complex and interesting themes have to do with depictions of gender and gender relations, and that's a very mixed bag unfortunately.

The thematic elements in Wheel of Time are interesting, but I think it's sad that people are less interested by the themes that Jordan held up as the ones he was most interested in - the mutability of knowledge, the relationships of legend, myth and history and the corruption of power backed by prophecy - than by the gender relations and zap-pow-boom stuff.

I think the thematic elements Jordan is exploring in WoT are generally handled very well, certainly far more successfully than Erikson, whose thematic elements are confused and morally simplistic, or Bakker, whose thematic elements are considerably more interesting and richer than WoT's, but sometimes trip up the storytelling (a problem much reduced in The Judging Eye, it has to be said). Jordan and Martin are both successful in their thematic elements because they choose relatively straightforward subjects (power in GRRM's case) and explore them in-depth, whilst some other modern fantasists choose something much more complicated and bungle it, to some extent.

[The Real Will]

If you were like what...22?...and you discovered that you had to save the world, people all over the world wanted to use you, you had been trapped inside a box, became (basically) friendless, and had the voice of a man who has been dead over 3,000 years AND you had to fight the ultimate demon (which can't be killed) or the world would be destroyed...I'm curious how you would react.

This maybe true--I like to think that I'd suck it up stoically, but there is at least an even chance that I'd cave in and just whinge. That said I don't think that "it's realistic" is necessarily the catch all defense that you think it is. While there are any number of people who would behave in any number of sickening and irritating ways in Rand's position, I really don't want to read about those people for 5,000 pages. I dare say that it would be possible to create a character of perfect psychological realism that no one would want to read about for any great amount of time. I don't claim that Rand approaches either of these situation, I'm saying that realism doesn't excuse aggravating the reader beyond reason. I've already admitted that I've grown attached to Rand, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't annoy me. And I generally don't come to a book to be annoyed. Rand's burden is interesting, his decent into madness is interesting, his approach to knowing that his own death is foretold is interesting. His immaturity and his moments of caricature are grating.

Indeed, I've been wondering whether to dip my toe in the turgid water of RJ's female characterisation. I've also been having a bit of a reread, and I've noticed, going through tEotW again, that Egwene was actually one of the more interesting characters through a lot of that book; Moiraine is rational and reasonable, if aloof; and even Nynaeve is generally sympathetic not overly obnoxious if you see things from her point of view. There is no denying, however, that many similar traits started appear among many of the women (and some of the men I might add) as the series progressed. I find it odd that fionwe chose Elayne and Nynaeve as his example of women who couldn't be more different, since they are probably the most similar and easiest to compare of all of them. And since the subject of Min has been raised, why is it that RJ believes that no one can resist pretty clothing. The reaction of almost every character to finery has been almost identical (those not born to wealth at any rate). First they reject it outright (apparently in fit of working class pique), then they start to wear smatterings of it claiming all the while that they still disdain it, then they start to wear it openly and defy anyone to judge them for it. RJ himself was clearly obsessed with clothing, but does he really believe that people who don't care about nice clothes are an aberration that will be fixed through exposure to embroidery?

...nor were we ever told that Siuan is the perfect leader. Whatever we know of the society and this character comes from their own actions.

Well, no, but Siuan is a political genius. Not only is implied but it's demonstrated fairly conclusively in the later books. She doesn't have to be "perfect" to know that sending three untrained girls after a troop of evil channelers is probably a stunningly bad idea on paper. Her sending the wonder girls on a mission of utmost importance because they were the only ones she could trust was an act of narrative convenience that RJ probably ought to be ashamed of. Not too ashamed though because writers generally seem to be addicted to this kind of thing.

God that all sounds negative. For the record, I quite like WoT. It was the pinnacle of great fantasy writing for me during my teenage years.

[Indigo Cloak]

Rand WAS awesome.

When he was proactive and not reactive.

When he didn't whine endlessly about "harming women" and act like women should be wrapped up in cotton wool and kept somewhere safe.

When he didn't sit and shake paws like a good little dog whenever someone with boobs asks him too.

When he wasn't involved in some stupid 4 way relationship.

Yes characters with flaws are good, but whining is not a good flaw. Whining is a shit flaw which ruins characters.

The fact that characters never talk to each other has gone beyond stupid into the realms of pure crap.

Rand turns up at Caemlyn, mentions Mat and makes a wrong statement about where he is. But Elayne, Aviendha and Nynaeve don't -ing bother to correct him and 3 BOOKS later Nynaeve still hasn't told Rand her and the idiot duo managed to get Mat stuck in Ebou Dar with the -ing Seanchan.

Just pasting my (imperfect) post from Wotmania explaining why I disagree with you. I never get it when people say Rand whines, mostly because, well, he just doesn't. Ever. To a fault. All his complaints (actually, I lie, in KoD he starts to whine a little, but compared to, say, Tyrion or Jon...) occur within his head and are arguably justified.

Following a trend: Pro Rand

IndigoAjah - 11/6/2007 5:34:01 AM

Noticing that the latest trend on the MB seems to be defending, attacking or satirising various characters, mostly those who are “love them or hate them†characters, I have decided to be a sheep for the day.

So here it is: inferior to its inspiration of course, but my best attempt.

I can’t help but notice that several of Rand’s detractors highlight these as major points against his character:

1) his supposed arrogance rudeness to characters in general, but specifically to Aes Sedai, Logain and his “friendsâ€

2) his supposed self-pity

3) his perceived inaction and indecision

4) his self-inflicted “hardness†or “trying to be this hardend badassâ€

5) The List

So these are the points I shall mainly address.

1) The Rudeness

Quite a few people seem to believe that Rand feels he can abuse people because of his position. However as far as I can tell, most of this rudeness is either misunderstanding or the result of an already damaged relationship between characters.

Point in case: I like Logain as a character, he’s strong and all that, but I can’t agree with people who state that Rand was unspeakably rude to Logain in KoD. Firstly, it’s made clear that Logain is being insolent towards Rand: throughout the book he’s surly, he feigns belief that Rand didn’t cleanse Saidin and when he admits Rand is more powerful, it’s very grudgingly. Rand is “rude†because he refuses to act on Logain’s information, treats him as a subordinate and gets annoyed by Logain’s attitude. Logain is a subordinate, and hence his own sulky manner is akin to insubordination. As for his information, Rand has no evidence other than Logain’s word. He has no proof that Logain is loyal to him: Whilst he dislikes Taim, Taim has come to his rescue once, “saved his lifeâ€, has trained up an effective army and is evidently excellent as his job. Rand can’t kill him because Taim’s closest rival, who would dislike him for being placed above him and for being another False Dragon, tells him to. Speaking of which, people seem to assume that Logain is a great guy with impeccable morals. No, he’s a man who claimed to be saviour of the world, knowing he wasn’t, for personal gain, and who has caused a war and the deaths of many people. So has Rand, but Rand had a valid reason. Logain is in fact Rand but without a moral excuse.

As for his “arroganceâ€, lilltempest covers this brilliantly in the link below. All the AS he is rude to, he is either retaliating to a truly despicable betrayal of trust, or merely being curt. He is never rude to Mat, Perrin (except in staged fights), Cadsuane once he has accepted that she deserves his trust, Min, Elayne or Aviendah once he decides that alienating them is not an effective way to protect them, or any of the Aiel except as part of his jocular exchanges with the Maidens. He is only rude to loyal noblemen once in KoD. Circumstances were bad. No-one here could claim they can remain cool in all situations. His bouts of anger have been much exaggerated. There was that moment in KoD and that’s it. Name another.

2) Whinier than Potter

Apparently Rand is full of self-pity. I thought the series continued after tDR. Let’s review what self-pity is…OK, obviously feeling pity for oneself, but its implied use here is beyond its definition. The somewhat varyingly reliable Wikipedia says:

Self-pity is a psychological state of mind of a person in a perceived adverse situation who has not accepted the situation and does not have the confidence or ability to cope with it. It is characterised by the person’s belief that he or she is the victim of events and is therefore deserving of condolence.

Self-pity is generally regarded as a negative emotion, in that it does not apparently help deal with the situation. However, in a social context, it may result in either sympathy being offered or advice being given. Self-pity may be considered normal, if perhaps not exactly healthy, so long as it is transitory and leads to either acceptance or a determination to change the situation.

Self-pity can also be remarkably self-sustaining, especially in conjunction with depression or other conditions. For example, a child at school is feeling bad for themselves because they see others being more social than themselves. If they do not take action by attempting to get to know others despite possible negative consequences (such as rejection) then they will continue to feel alone, and their feelings of self-pity will be sustained.

Aside from in the beginning of tDR, when does Rand feel sorry for himself? He feels contempt, anger, disgust, doubt and dislike but never pity at his own lot. He accepts his fairly sucky fate with stoicism. He accepts his own faults and mistakes frequently (sometimes prompted by LTT). He never feels that he deserves condolence. He does not self-pity.

3) The Student Life

Another supposed fault of Rand is his inaction. Primarily I must assume that people who proclaim this must only remember book 10, which is funny, because that’s the book I try to forget. But even then he’s not doing nothing: he’s setting up a truce with the Seanchan, still trying to control several nations (it is made clear in KoD that he has been Travelling around all the time whilst he “sits there†in Tear), recovering from executing the single greatest act of his Age and planning a grand-scale military attack. All also valid reasons to ignore Logain’s advice on the BT. He is accused of being unable to act unless it is a reaction. But all actions are reactions of one sort or another. And throughout the books the FS have had trouble deealing with Rand’s unpredictability. Let’s review his inaction through the series:

1) Most of it isn’t under his own steam, but when left alone he effectively makes his way to Andor more swiftly and with less fuss than any of his allies.

2) When alone he chases down Fain and makes the decision to try and save Egwene.

3) A small period of inaction at the beginning is followed by a book full of self-motivated action.

4) Here he doesn’t really react at all. He plays to his own rules, with no periods of idleness and mightily confuses the FS.

5) The only periods of inaction are when he’s has to consolidate his position, which shows intelligent leadership, and when he has to wait to get the other clans to help attack Couladin.

6) He makes many bold decisions. Though he doesn’t actively hunt down the FS, which is a virtual impossibility as not even other FS know where the likes of Demandred are, he consolidates his rule over several nations, sets up the Black Tower under Taim as well as other schools and begins to plan his next anti-FS strike. His period of inaction is when he is shoved into a box.

7) Aside from a fit of self-loathing, he uses his time repairing the damage that his betrayal by despicable AS caused, killing Sammael, influencing his opponents’ camp, etc.

Decides to strike at the Seanchan. Doesn’t really work, but it’s the effort that counts.

9) Kills his own assassins then cleanses Saidin. My that Rand, he never does anything does he?

10) Recovers from using unfeasible amounts of the OP, still setting up a truce and planning a war through his less exhausted followers. NB. This well-earned rest is over a very short period.

11) Continues truce and war planning. These things do actually take time, otherwise they could backfire and Rand could get into an unscheduled fight with an FS. Oh.

12) Who knows?

If anything Rand takes too many liberties with his own life and tries to do too much himself. IMO.

4) Bad to the Bone

Here at least I can agree to a certain extent. He doesn’t need to be as hard as he is trying to be. Note that he is not that hard actually. He is still capable of feeling plenty of emotions, he just refuses to. This is to avoid a permament state of anguish at the number of people he has led to their deaths, among other things. Fair enough he shouldn’t really do it. But no-one, not even the mighty Cadsuane, has the guts to tell Rand this to his face. Instead they try to manipulate him behind his back, which is doomed to fail from the start. He still feels emotions towards Min, Elayne and Aviendah. He is just really well practised at keeping them locked up.

I feel it is churlish to dislike someone for being willing to sacrifice something as great as his own humanity and basically his friends by extension. Rand isn’t a heartless bastard. He needs and wants friends. But the world doesn’t need or want it. So he’s sacrificing any vestige of comfort that he could have to save the world. And it’s held against him. Although it plainly hurts him. He’s not hard, just trying to suppress his feelings to do a job.

5) Finally: The List

It annoys me that this is held against Rand. Many people who complain against it also tend, as far as I have seen, to complain about his hardness as well.Even though the list is a direct indicator that Rand hasn’t lost his humanity yet. An indicator of his pain and the that he is not as arrogant as he’s made out to be: he is upset that the lives of so many have been spent to aid his, regardless of importance. You also have to bear in mind that he only goes through t he list in his head, so people finding it “annoying†that he goes through it so frequently should be aware that he won’t annoy characters in that way. They have no idea of his inner anguish and, aside from Min and Perrin pre-WH, no ability to empathise. It concerns me that apparently many readers can’t/won’t do this to Rand either.

Please attack my post at liberty, so I can have the pleasure of defending it more extensively.

[Errant Bard]

The most vitriolic anti-Jordan diatribes generally come from people who haven't read all the books. In fact, the fewer books people have read, the more vitriolic the hatred seems to be.

That shouldn't come off as a surprise, since those for which reading WoT becomes unbearable would naturally be those who also hate it the most. In truth, I'm not too sure what you try to say here, was it a roundabout way to suggest that the most negative the reactions towards towards the series, the less relevant they are?

[Silent Brother Clegane]

There's is no denying the statement of 44,000,000 sales. It speaks loud and true for the power of Jordan's legacy.

[Errant Bard]

Heh, Twilight sold more, so did Harry Potter, so Did Da Vinci Code and Goodkind trusts the bestseller list too. Sales are indicator of neither quality nor staying power.

[fionwe1987]

I find it odd that fionwe chose Elayne and Nynaeve as his example of women who couldn't be more different, since they are probably the most similar and easiest to compare of all of them.

I don't find it odd at all. I cannot see how Elayne and Nynaeve can be called the same. Throughout their sojourns together, their reactions to events, the way they handle situations, everything... there's just no comparison. Nynaeve is completely depended on her emotional response to an event, while Elayne places a very conscious emphasis on rationality before reacting to an event. Their insecurities are completely different and opposite, and that shows in their perceptions of themselves and each other.

This is perhaps the only useful thing that absurd circus achieved. Allowed us to see Elayne and Nynaeve in a true light. But god I wish RJ had chosen something else!

Well, no, but Siuan is a political genius. Not only is implied but it's demonstrated fairly conclusively in the later books. She doesn't have to be "perfect" to know that sending three untrained girls after a troop of evil channelers is probably a stunningly bad idea on paper. Her sending the wonder girls on a mission of utmost importance because they were the only ones she could trust was an act of narrative convenience that RJ probably ought to be ashamed of. Not too ashamed though because writers generally seem to be addicted to this kind of thing.

Siuan is a limited political genius, as Jordan so clearly showed with Elaida's coup. Siuan herself admits to that when she teaches Egwene about the various issues prior Amyrlins have had.

Siuan's complete lack of trust in anyone but the wondergirls is stupid, based on an outside perspective. But from what Siuan knows, its the only thing that makes sense.

Lets review what she knows, okay? When she was just raised Aes Sedai, she knew for a fact that the Black Ajah captured and tortured the strongest Aes Sedai alive, and did this right in the Tower. She knows the Amyrlin Seat herself was tortured and killed, as were all the women she entrusted with her secret.

The only possible implication is that the Black Ajah has an extended network in the Tower that keeps tabs on the movement of the most important Aes Sedai. They have the ability to secretly get hold of any Aes Sedai at all, and do what they want with them.

Secondly, anyone can be Black, even the Mistress of Novices who you trusted and admired. Why not your Keeper or someone else you think you can trust?

Third, Siuan slipped a note to Seirin Vayu about Tamra and Meilyn's murder. She started inquiries, and withing months, was dead. Marith Jeane and the next Amyrlin suffered similar fates. Clearly, the BA is ruthless in killing anyone they suspect of being capable of exposing them. Which is why Siuan keps completely silent on what she knew about them.

Now, she has evidence that the BA is after the Dragon Reborn. Rand himself is not yet a capable channeler, and Siuan knows that Moiraine is not enough to take care of him. Nor can he be trusted to do as Moiraine says.

At this juncture, three women who are infinitely stronger than she was when she started her own dangerous quest to find the Dragon are proved to be non-BA without a shadow of doubt. In the larger scheme of things, sacrificing them to keep the Dragon alive, even if all they do is provide a distraction so that he can escape, is completely acceptable. More, these women have proven that they are not going to be stumped if they're in a tight spot. They escaped from the Seanchan, despite the fact that one of them was captured by them.

What was Siuan to do? Send no one after the BA and allow them to trap Rand? Send women she cannot trust at all and risk that the BA will find out, torture her and find out about Rand? Let her fear for three women override the greater worry that the Dragon Reborn will be killed or turned?

As far as she knew, she had no choice. She had to send them, and sending them did, in the long run, prove to be good. In the Tower, as she knew, the BA was already gunning for them. Liandrin and co. had already tried to dispose of them once. There was no safety for them in the Tower, and nor could they be useful. Outside, they are less restricted, and the circumstances would result in them being forced, so they'd grow stronger sooner, as Siuan well knew.

She did the only thing she could. She was aware it is a desperate gamble, and when idiot sisters like Sheriam accused her of not trusting anyone, her defense was correct. They would have done nothing, she knew something had to be done.

This in no way makes her an idiot.

[TerraPrime]

Re: Silent Brother Clegane

The fact remains: Matrim Cauthon is one of the best fantasy characters there ever has been. Between Mat Cauthon, Tyrion Lannister and Prince Kheldar of Drasnia we find the holy trinity of roguish fantasy characters. I'm a rogue and I want to read about a rogue and there are none finer than Mat, and only a few who are his equal.

And that's why I detest Mat the most, of the 6 main characters. I skimmed most of his chapters.

Re: Fionwe

Its an interesting thing, isn't it? Within these boards, at least, it may well be the most divisive of epic fantasies. Sure, Erikson, Bakker and even Martin get argued over endlessly, but I've not seen nearly as many of those discussions.

You're severely mistaken. Bakker alone spawned 4 contentions threads that lasted for 3 months on his take on sexism. Discussion on Erikson's Malazan empire was so contentious we've had to moderate the threads. Your lack of data points does not reflect the reality.

You like Min? :stunned:

I'm sorry, but the woman is irritating beyond belief. The woman spends the series acting as Rand's blanket, and criticizes him when he needs support and supports him when he needs criticism! Not to mention insisting on accompanying him on dangerous missions resulting in him losing body parts.

I'm not a fan of Min, because, like many female characters in fantasy, she was defined by her love interest, and does not have a story of her own. Into that same category goes Faile, and the married Nynaeve.

However, your characterization is rather insipid. Rand is the dragon fucking reborn. He can tie Min up in weaves of air and leave her guarded. He didn't. He let her come with him, because he's weak against the alluring call of the female sex. He let her come with him because he wanted her to be close to him. But even if we set it aside, it was Rand's slow reaction that doomed his hand. The first flicker of the disguise should have tipped him off.

At any rate, the problem between Rand and Min is just a tiny bit of the larger problem that plagues RJ's WoT, which is that few of the relationships between men and women in the book seem genuine or believable. The best apologetic for that is the claim that the male Aes Sedai breaking the world forever warped the gender relations. I suppose that's one explanation. But I am more convinced that it's just a matter of RJ's own take on gender and chauvinism seeping through.

And while this does show that these women have a lowly notion of men like Mat, and points to a smug sense of power, that is neither bad characterization, not unexpected given the realities of their world.

And that, imo, ought to be the true criticism, that RJ created a world where such behaviors and antics are normative and accepted.

[Guest Nadine]

blurry eyed, hungover.

Sorry for the petty in-fighting. I was drunk and thought it would be amusing to paraphrase comments made by various WoT female characters and see if fionwe would catch on, since he thinks he knows so much about the books.

Jokes on me. :(

Sorry again mon dudes.

[fionwe1987]

Re: Fionwe

You're severely mistaken. Bakker alone spawned 4 contentions threads that lasted for 3 months on his take on sexism. Discussion on Erikson's Malazan empire was so contentious we've had to moderate the threads. Your lack of data points does not reflect the reality.

I may well be mistaken, as I hinted in my original post, but discussions of one aspect of Bakker's books does not mean his series is more divisive. Erikson... yes, Malazan does approach WoT in the amount of arguments that go back and forth. Maybe even exceeds it.

I'm not a fan of Min, because, like many female characters in fantasy, she was defined by her love interest, and does not have a story of her own. Into that same category goes Faile, and the married Nynaeve.

Nynaeve is defined by her love interest? How?

And Perrin is defined by his love interest and doesn't have a story of his own. Remember, he gave up his mission to rescue Faile?

However, your characterization is rather insipid. Rand is the dragon fucking reborn. He can tie Min up in weaves of air and leave her guarded. He didn't. He let her come with him, because he's weak against the alluring call of the female sex. He let her come with him because he wanted her to be close to him. But even if we set it aside, it was Rand's slow reaction that doomed his hand. The first flicker of the disguise should have tipped him off.

Min is perfectly aware that in Rand's current state, where he is suspicious of everyone and thinks most people are out to get him, he is going to have a tough time denying her anything, let alone manhandling her. And the woman uses that fact to make him take her into a risky mission. The fault is all her's.

At any rate, the problem between Rand and Min is just a tiny bit of the larger problem that plagues RJ's WoT, which is that few of the relationships between men and women in the book seem genuine or believable. The best apologetic for that is the claim that the male Aes Sedai breaking the world forever warped the gender relations. I suppose that's one explanation. But I am more convinced that it's just a matter of RJ's own take on gender and chauvinism seeping through.

Right. Obviously, it is a huge coincidence that men Broke the World and have been generally shunted aside in positions of power as a result. :rolleyes:

And that, imo, ought to be the true criticism, that RJ created a world where such behaviors and antics are normative and accepted.

I see. So when women are the dominant sex and show sexist attitudes, the series should be criticized, as should the author. But it is completely okay that in other epic fantasies depicting a medeival world similar to ours, even greater sexism is evident, and mistreatement of women is even more the norm. Double standards much?

blurry eyed, hungover.

Sorry for the petty in-fighting. I was drunk and thought it would be amusing to paraphrase comments made by various WoT female characters and see if fionwe would catch on, since he thinks he knows so much about the books.

Jokes on me. :(

Sorry again mon dudes.

I see. Maybe you should consider the possibility that your ability to paraphrase is a little wonky? Not even the bitchiest WoT character has come across as a complete jerk like you did.

[Guest Nadine]

I changed the verbage but little. ;) So maybe the women of WoT really are all the same, and jerks to boot.

[fionwe1987]

I changed the verbage but little. ;) So maybe the women of WoT really are all the same, and jerks to boot.

No one noticed. Maybe you've built up an image of them in your head. Unless you believe that only you know what is in the books. :P

[Errant Bard]

No one noticed.

:lol: yeah right

[fionwe1987]

:lol: yeah right

Indeed. :D

[TerraPrime]

Nynaeve is defined by her love interest? How?

The "married" Nynaeve. Not the Nynaeve in the first few books.

And Perrin is defined by his love interest and doesn't have a story of his own. Remember, he gave up his mission to rescue Faile?

Yes, and Perrin ceases to be as interesting at that point. However, the point is that the stereotypical fantasy female character is often defined predominantly by her role as a love interest. So while Perrin became more one-dimensional with his obsessive pursuit to rescue Faile, he didn't fulfill a sexist troupe.

Min is perfectly aware that in Rand's current state, where he is suspicious of everyone and thinks most people are out to get him, he is going to have a tough time denying her anything, let alone manhandling her. And the woman uses that fact to make him take her into a risky mission. The fault is all her's.

And that is Rand's own chauvinsm at fault.

Right. Obviously, it is a huge coincidence that men Broke the World and have been generally shunted aside in positions of power as a result. :rolleyes:

I'm not sure what that attempt at sarcasm is supposed to accomplish.

I see. So when women are the dominant sex and show sexist attitudes, the series should be criticized, as should the author. But it is completely okay that in other epic fantasies depicting a medeival world similar to ours, even greater sexism is evident, and mistreatement of women is even more the norm. Double standards much?

Bleargh. If you're going to argue against strawmen arguments, go ahead. I'm done with you.

I see. Maybe you should consider the possibility that your ability to paraphrase is a little wonky? Not even the bitchiest WoT character has come across as a complete jerk like you did.

Nadine was acting the fool. You're no saint. At least she apologized.

[Guest Nadine]

Nah, I am old enough to know better than to twit someone like that. Fionwe has no toh toward me.

[fionwe1987]

The "married" Nynaeve. Not the Nynaeve in the first few books.

Exactly. How is her story revolving around Lan's? For god's sake, in KoD, she arranged for Lan to go do what he wants and despite knowing that he could die, stayed back with Rand because she thinks that's where her duty lies.

Yes, and Perrin ceases to be as interesting at that point. However, the point is that the stereotypical fantasy female character is often defined predominantly by her role as a love interest. So while Perrin became more one-dimensional with his obsessive pursuit to rescue Faile, he didn't fulfill a sexist troupe.

Agreed. But my point was that Faile herself doesn't fulfill that trope either.

And that is Rand's own chauvinsm at fault.

It is not chauvinism. That she is a woman has nothing to do with the fact that she is one of the few people he trusts. He trusts Lan too, and refusing to let him die gets him imprisoned in Far Madding.

I'm not sure what that attempt at sarcasm is supposed to accomplish.

I'm saying that your assertion that RJ's chauvinism is responsible for the skew in power between the sexes in his series. I don't even know how that works, unless you claim that RJ is a female chauvinist.

Bleargh. If you're going to argue against strawmen arguments, go ahead. I'm done with you.

How is this a strawman? Imagine, in aSoIaF, Catelyn offering to protect and come to the rescue of Jaime, Loras and Barristan the Bold. If they would have laughed at her face and told her to tend to her children, you wouldn't have blamed the author for creating particularly obnoxious or bitchy characters. You'd have taken it in your stride and said they are a product of their world.

Maybe you wouldn't, but most people who have a problem with RJ's women would have. And that is true, not a strawman.

Nadine was acting the fool. You're no saint. At least she apologized.

Very well. I apologize for not being a saint. Fine?