Am I the only one who finds Wheel of Time overwriten and drawn out?

[Slurktan]

You're severely mistaken. Bakker alone spawned 4 contentions threads that lasted for 3 months on his take on sexism. Discussion on Erikson's Malazan empire was so contentious we've had to moderate the threads. Your lack of data points does not reflect the reality.

Not to disagree with you but OsRavan alone spawned more of his eloquent "in your opinion" debates than that by himself, that generally lasted until the threads were closed because he was extremely persistant. :)

I'd have to agree more with Fionwe on this in general if only because the WoT divisiveness has been around for a lot longer than the other stuff. It was on the old board, and the old board before that.

[xythil]

Guys I didn't mean to start a flame war. I am just frustrated by how critical I have become of fantasy thanks to GRRM's amazing writing, detail, characters and plot.

[Galactus]

However, your characterization is rather insipid. Rand is the dragon fucking reborn. He can tie Min up in weaves of air and leave her guarded. He didn't. He let her come with him, because he's weak against the alluring call of the female sex. He let her come with him because he wanted her to be close to him. But even if we set it aside, it was Rand's slow reaction that doomed his hand. The first flicker of the disguise should have tipped him off.

To be honest, I think the fact that Rand is incapable of dealing with women kind of has enough explanations to not jar me. Perrin and Mat does, OTOH, but not Rand. Rand is just messed up in that regard and both the author and he himself knows it. It's a side effect of, you know, him being crazy.

[Guest Nadine]

Guys I didn't mean to start a flame war. I am just frustrated by how critical I have become of fantasy thanks to GRRM's amazing writing, detail, characters and plot.

I had to be talked into reading AGoT due to the RJ blurb on the cover. :lol: And these sort of threads have been around for at least 9 years here.

[xythil]

I had to be talked into reading AGoT due to the RJ blurb on the cover. :lol: And these sort of threads have been around for at least 9 years here.

LOL exactly the same for me.

My friend recomended wOT to me and then AGOT and I was like wtf dude you made me read that WOT book for 5 books. Lol

[Silent Brother Clegane]

Re: Silent Brother Clegane

And that's why I detest Mat the most, of the 6 main characters. I skimmed most of his chapters.

Because he's a rogue? You must play wizard characters often...

[TerraPrime]

Because he's a rogue? You must play wizard characters often...

Nope. Favorite class is a rogue. Prefers urban setting. More along the line of Gentleman Bastards from Lynch.

Second favorite is the healer class.

But of course the "rogue" descriptor for Mat is not the same as "rogue" in the classical ADD setting.

[Guest Nadine]

Not even in the romance novel meaning either. But then farmhands are rarely objects of desire in romance novels, unless they are a duke in disguise, of course.

[fionwe1987]

Not even in the romance novel meaning either. But then farmhands are rarely objects of desire in romance novels, unless they are a duke in disguise, of course.

Mat is likely the descendant of the kings of Manetheren. But that was mentioned only once in the series, I think.

[Xanrn]

1) The Rudeness

I love Rudeness, thats the Rand I want back.

2) Whinier than Potter

Never said he did Self Pity, I said he fuckin whines and whines constantly see number 3 and 5

3) The Student Life

Nope, he has no excuses, fuck the Seanchan, if he got off his goddam arse and found Mat he could give Mat full reign to push the Seanchan back into the Sea. Instead he wasted Mat on some stupid pointless escort job AFTER chewing Mat out for not taking more responseability. After making Mat take command and plan the Attack on Illian, he turns the greatest living General into a freakin Bodyguard and then has the goddam balls to whine about Mat (and Perrin) having a nice pleasent trip in the pleasure gardens when he views Mat riding in the country during one of their flashes.

He has become reactive, he won't do anything about the Black Tower till it explodes in his face. The same with the Borderland Armies.

If anything Rand takes too many liberties with his own life and tries to do too much himself. IMO.

Yeah then he whines about it, because he sent Mat and Perrin off on crappy jobs they should have finished by now and shouldn't have been sent in the case of Mat but he won't actually check to find out.

4) Bad to the Bone

I agree

5) Finally: The List

The List is the fuckin worst bit, the stupidest pile of chaunvinistic crap in the books.

Maidens of the Spear who died FOR HIM, should not be on any goddam list solely because they were female. He doesn't put the thousands upon of thousands of men on his list. So why the hell should the Maidens be on it. They have tried to explain again and again, they should be treated the same as the men but he won't have it.

Maidens of the Spear and Darkfriends who dies oppossing him, another bullshit entry. For pretty much the same reason and the fact DARKFRIENDS deserve no mercy or regret or sympathy.

Lady Colavere(sp), who murdered atleast 3 people and then stole the Sun Throne and hung herself when she couldn't deal with Rand's very soft punishment.

The Random woman who got killed because the Whitecloak assassins suck.

The first one is their choice and the fact he refuses to accept it pisses me off.

The second one, if he is not going to mourn for all his enemies he shouldn't mourn for any of them.

The third one is just pathetic, god forbid the guilty get punished and it wasn't his fault she couldn't take the whirlwind she sowed.

The fourth one isn't his fault either and he should be glad Pedron Niel is dead and that should be the end of that.

The only female death he should beat himself up about is Moirraine who he got "killed" because of his pathetic can't hurt 3000 year old barely counted as human to start with women.

But no we get endless whining about all the females he has got killed, when they are either doing what they choose and should be respected, actively working against him, weak little psychopaths or simply not his fault.

Mat was fine until he started letting Tuon walk all over him. "There is no such thing as Shadowspawn, Toy" should have been ansewered with "Go up to the Borderlands, keep going till you hit the Blight and then inform the Trollocs they don't excist.". He won't call her on the fact she can channel and thinks all women who can channel should be collared, when his damm sister can channel and is being trained as an Aes Sedai. I half hope Bode Cauthon gets collared in the Seanchan attack on the White Tower just so Mat will finally get called on it.

Perrin frankly snapped when his family got killed and that is the reason for his insane fixation on Faile. That and the stupid using an Axe to kill is Evil, using a Hammer and Knife to kill is perfectly fine. Also the fact I find anyone fighting with a 10 pound smiths hammer stupidity that should be reserved for Gods called Thor. Perrin needs a power wrought weapon like the other 2.

As for the romances, most of them are pure crap.

I especially like Rand and his 3 women, Elayne meets him for all of 10 minutes and decides he should be her husband, warder and father of her children. Min and Aviendha are in love with him because they saw themselves in love with him... Which has got to be the lazyist romance ever.

Then there is the bullcrap with them bonding him, "Yay we wuv Rand, so lets all bond him so the Shadow can have 3 more ways to corrupt/kill him..." *slow clap* and people say Elayne isn't a terminally stupid shallow spoilt little brat...

[Guest Nadine]

Mat is likely the descendant of the kings of Manetheren. But that was mentioned only once in the series, I think.

That was a joke. Maybe I need to add an 'this is a joke' smilie to everything.

Edit: Oh, and you are wrong. It says CLEARLY that Mat is not decended from the kings of Manetheren or any other kingship. (oh, and these two sentances are not jokes.)

[fionwe1987]

That was a joke. Maybe I need to add an 'this is a joke' smilie to everything.

Why is everything a debate with you? I merely stated that there was mention that Mat was a descendant of the kings of Manetheren. I also stated it was mentioned only once, and that can scarcely take away from your point that farmhands are not objects of desire in most romances.

You don't have to enter every discussion with claws bared and slash out with pathetic attempts at wit.

Edit: Oh, and you are wrong. It says CLEARLY that Mat is not decended from the kings of Manetheren or any other kingship. (oh, and these two sentances are not jokes.)

Where?

[Guest Nadine]

Why is everything a debate with you? I merely stated that there was mention that Mat was a descendant of the kings of Manetheren. I also stated it was mentioned only once, and that can scarcely take away from your point that farmhands are not objects of desire in most romances.

You don't have to enter every discussion with claws bared and slash out with pathetic attempts at wit.

Where?

I am busy playing WoW, how about you prove* yourself right.

*proof on this board means finding the exact quote then providing the book version (us hc 1st ed, for example), book name, chapter name and page number. If I could be arsed, I'd prove you wrong, yet again, but ...

[fionwe1987]

I am busy playing WoW, how about you prove* yourself right.

*proof on this board means finding the exact quote then providing the book version (us hc 1st ed, for example), book name, chapter name and page number. If I could be arsed, I'd prove you wrong, yet again, but ...

Very well, I'll begin...

Moiraine's smile took in Egwene and Mat both, though her gaze may have rested a moment longer on him than on her. "The blood of Arad's line is still strong in the Two Rivers. The old blood still sings."

Mat and Egwene looked at each other, while everyone else looked at them both. Egwene's eyes were wide, and her mouth kept quirking into a smile that she bit back every time it began, as if she was not sure just how to take this talk of the old blood. Mat was sure, from the scowling frown on his face.

Rand thought he knew what Mat was thinking. The same thing he was thinking. If Mat was a descendant of the ancient kings of Manetheren, maybe the Trollocs were really after him and not all three of them. The thought made him ashamed. His cheeks colored, and when he caught a guilty grimace on Perrin's face, he knew

Perrin had been having the same thought.

Not conclusive proof, which is why I said "likely the descendant".

Now, since you so "obviously" know WoT better than me, go right ahead and prove to me where it is said clearly that Mat is not descended from the kings of Manetheren.

Don't expect a reply though. I'm through with your moronic debates. You have shown neither sense nor any knowledge of the series, and have chosen to merely insult and bluster. I have better things to do.

[Prince Who Was Promised]

I think that was just speculation on Rand's part...something to try and make himself believe they were'nt after him. We all know they wanted the Dragon Reborn...there's no proof for or against Mat being a king that I can think of. But, then again, I thought the last King had died as well as all his family. I'll check later.

[Guest Nadine]

I think that was just speculation on Rand's part...something to try and make himself believe they were'nt after him. We all know they wanted the Dragon Reborn...there's no proof for or against Mat being a king that I can think of. But, then again, I thought the last King had died as well as all his family. I'll check later.

There was no mention of heirs of the Manatherian kings, unless it was in the white book of cash. Still, mentioned or not, in book 4 it clearly shows Mat in a battle scene and he is not the King - he is a fighter. He 'remembers' seeing Aemon killed.

Gotta finish up WoW before I find the exact chapter, but its book four, after Rhuidean, and I think during the siege of Cairhein.

[Werthead]

Personal insults will not be tolerated on the forum. I don't really want to have to keep deleting posts, so keep it civil.

The quote from EotW seems pretty straightforward, and Moiraine seems to be doing more than just guessing. The later flashback is not so decisive, as there is no reason the ancestor of the person Mat flashed back to couldn't have been the king of a line that lost the throne for whatever reason (Manetheren having been around for 1,200 years by that point), or that Mat's ancestor's family was perhaps noble and related to the crown whilst not actually holding it.

It is a relatively minor point though. Moiraine said that Mat was a descendant of the line of kings. There's no real way of getting round that, unless it was an EotWism that Jordan later retconned.

[Guest Nadine]

Eye of the world

"Carai an Caldazar," Moiraine said. They all twisted to stare at her. "Carai an Ellisande.

Al Ellisande. For the honor of the Red Eagle. For the honor of the Rose of the Sun.

The Rose of the Sun. The ancient warcry of Manetheren, and the warcry of its last king.

Eldrene was called the Rose of the Sun." Moiraine's smile took in Egwene and Mat both,

though her gaze may have rested a moment longer on him than on her.

"The blood of Arad's line is still strong in the Two Rivers. The old blood still sings."

I can't find references to Arad, unless he is in the GWB, which I sold.

Rand thought he knew what Mat was thinking. The same thing he was thinking.

If Mat was a descendant of the ancient kings of Manetheren,

maybe the Trollocs were really after him and not all three of them.

Note the if.

breath to calm himself before going on. "The old blood, she said. The blood, not a dead man.

I've heard that it can happen, sometimes. Heard, though I never really thought . . .

It was your roots, boy. A line running from you to your father to your grandfather,

right on back to Manetheren, and maybe beyond. Well, now you know your family is old.

You ought to let it go at that and be glad. Most people don't know much more than that

they had a father."

In your roots, not your roots mean kingdoms.

In the days when Thorin al Toren al Ban was King of Manetheren,

the King of Aridhol was Balwen Mayel, Balwen Ironhand.

In a twilight of despair during the Trolloc Wars, when it seemed the Father of Lies

must surely conquer, the man called Mordeth came to Balwen's court."

The last name with the al indicates royal linage. Here is good old Thorin. There is also the matter of Mat's name - seems everyone else in the two rivers is al something but not Mat. Yes, he could be from a bastard line or the distaff side, but not likely.

That told me something, but not enough. Manetheren blood was always stubborn,

and more so after Aemon died and Eldrene's heart was shattered

Emo.

The Shadow Rising

mountains. Manetheren, city of soaring spires and splashing fountains,

capital of a great nation of the same name, perhaps the most beautiful city in the world,

according to old Ogier tales. Gone now without a trace, except for the all-but-indestructible

Waygate that had stood in the Ogier grove. Burned to barren rock more than two thousand years

ago, while the Trolloc Wars still raged, destroyed by the One Power after the death of its last

king, Aemon al’Caar al’Thorin, in his last bloody battle against the Shadow. Aemon’s Field,

men had named that place, where the village called Emond’s Field now stood.

Aemon is the grandson of good ol' Thorin, from above.

It was hard to believe that the small villages and quiet farms of the Two Rivers held the last of Manetheren’s blood, but that was what Moiraine had said. The old blood runs strong in the Two Rivers, she had said

Surely not everyone was related to the king. And its simply silly to think old blood = royal blood.

It was “Midean’s Ford.†An old song; of Manetheren, oddly enough, and war before the Trolloc Wars. Natael did a fair job of it; nothing like Thom’s sonorous recitals, of course, but the rolling words drew a crowd of Aiel thick around the edge of the fire’s light. Villainous Aedomon led the Saferi down on unsuspecting Manetheren, pillaging and burning, driving all before them until King Buiryn gathered Manetheren’s strength, and the men of Manetheren met the Saferi at Midean’s Ford, holding, though heavily outnumbered, through three days of unrelenting battle, while the river ran red and vultures blacked the sky. On the third day, numbers dwindling, hope fading, Buiryn and his men fought their way across the ford in a desperate sortie, driving deep into Aedomon’s horde, seeking to turn the enemy back by killing Aedomon himself. But forces too great to overpower swept in around them, trapping them, driving them ever in on themselves. Surrounding their king and the Red Eagle banner, they fought on, refusing surrender even when their doom became clear.

Natael sang how their courage touched even Aedomon’s heart, and how at last he allowed the remnant to go free, turning his army back to Safer in honor of them. “Back across the blood-red water, marching back with heads held high. No surrender, arm or sword, no surrender, heart or soul. Honor be theirs, ever after,honor all the Age shall know.â€

He plucked the final chord, and the Aiel whistled their approval, drumming spears on their hide bucklers, some raising ululating cries.

It had not been that way, of course. Mat could remember — Light, I don’t want to! But it came anyway — he remembered counseling Buiryn not to accept the offer, being told in return that the smallest chance was better than none. Aedomon, glossy black beard hanging below the steel mesh that veiled his face, drew his spearmen back, waited until they were strung out and nearly to the ford before the hidden archers rose and the cavalry charged in. As for turning back to Safer. . . . Mat did not think so. His last memory at the ford was trying to keep his feet, waist-deep in the river with three arrows in him, but there was something later, a fragment. Seeing Aedomon, gray-bearded now, go down in a sharp fight in a forest, toppling from his rearing horse, the spear in his back put there by an unarmored, beardless boy. This was worse than the holes had been.

Mat doesn't remember being a king, he remembers counselling the king.

"The Red Eagle had been the symbol of Manetheren"

The symbol of Manetheren, so that implies the king used it as his own.

The Fires of Heaven

“The Band of the Red Hand,†Moiraine murmured. “Shen an Calhar. A legendary group of heroes indeed, though the men in it must have changed many times in a war that lasted well over three hundred years. It is said they were the last to fall to the Trollocs, guarding Aemon himself, when Manetheren died. Legend says a spring rose where they fell, to mark their passing, but I rather think the spring was already there.â€

Whereas Mat builds the band of the red hand, NOT the red eagle. Also note, the band fell guarding the last king. If Mat were decended from Aemon, et all, he would have used the red eagle, not the red hand.

There are also various memories in later books that indicate Mat was at courts, but he never ruled them.

*sniff*

I should have been a brown.

[Lord Biff]

1) The Rudeness

I love Rudeness, thats the Rand I want back.

2) Whinier than Potter

Never said he did Self Pity, I said he fuckin whines and whines constantly see number 3 and 5

3) The Student Life

Nope, he has no excuses, fuck the Seanchan, if he got off his goddam arse and found Mat he could give Mat full reign to push the Seanchan back into the Sea. Instead he wasted Mat on some stupid pointless escort job AFTER chewing Mat out for not taking more responseability. After making Mat take command and plan the Attack on Illian, he turns the greatest living General into a freakin Bodyguard and then has the goddam balls to whine about Mat (and Perrin) having a nice pleasent trip in the pleasure gardens when he views Mat riding in the country during one of their flashes.

He has become reactive, he won't do anything about the Black Tower till it explodes in his face. The same with the Borderland Armies.

If anything Rand takes too many liberties with his own life and tries to do too much himself. IMO.

Yeah then he whines about it, because he sent Mat and Perrin off on crappy jobs they should have finished by now and shouldn't have been sent in the case of Mat but he won't actually check to find out.

4) Bad to the Bone

I agree

5) Finally: The List

The List is the fuckin worst bit, the stupidest pile of chaunvinistic crap in the books.

Maidens of the Spear who died FOR HIM, should not be on any goddam list solely because they were female. He doesn't put the thousands upon of thousands of men on his list. So why the hell should the Maidens be on it. They have tried to explain again and again, they should be treated the same as the men but he won't have it.

Maidens of the Spear and Darkfriends who dies oppossing him, another bullshit entry. For pretty much the same reason and the fact DARKFRIENDS deserve no mercy or regret or sympathy.

Lady Colavere(sp), who murdered atleast 3 people and then stole the Sun Throne and hung herself when she couldn't deal with Rand's very soft punishment.

The Random woman who got killed because the Whitecloak assassins suck.

The first one is their choice and the fact he refuses to accept it pisses me off.

The second one, if he is not going to mourn for all his enemies he shouldn't mourn for any of them.

The third one is just pathetic, god forbid the guilty get punished and it wasn't his fault she couldn't take the whirlwind she sowed.

The fourth one isn't his fault either and he should be glad Pedron Niel is dead and that should be the end of that.

The only female death he should beat himself up about is Moirraine who he got "killed" because of his pathetic can't hurt 3000 year old barely counted as human to start with women.

But no we get endless whining about all the females he has got killed, when they are either doing what they choose and should be respected, actively working against him, weak little psychopaths or simply not his fault.

Mat was fine until he started letting Tuon walk all over him. "There is no such thing as Shadowspawn, Toy" should have been ansewered with "Go up to the Borderlands, keep going till you hit the Blight and then inform the Trollocs they don't excist.". He won't call her on the fact she can channel and thinks all women who can channel should be collared, when his damm sister can channel and is being trained as an Aes Sedai. I half hope Bode Cauthon gets collared in the Seanchan attack on the White Tower just so Mat will finally get called on it.

Perrin frankly snapped when his family got killed and that is the reason for his insane fixation on Faile. That and the stupid using an Axe to kill is Evil, using a Hammer and Knife to kill is perfectly fine. Also the fact I find anyone fighting with a 10 pound smiths hammer stupidity that should be reserved for Gods called Thor. Perrin needs a power wrought weapon like the other 2.

As for the romances, most of them are pure crap.

I especially like Rand and his 3 women, Elayne meets him for all of 10 minutes and decides he should be her husband, warder and father of her children. Min and Aviendha are in love with him because they saw themselves in love with him... Which has got to be the lazyist romance ever.

Then there is the bullcrap with them bonding him, "Yay we wuv Rand, so lets all bond him so the Shadow can have 3 more ways to corrupt/kill him..." *slow clap* and people say Elayne isn't a terminally stupid shallow spoilt little brat...

Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you!

I have been trying to say this for years.

I realize that RJ was trying to prove how bad communication kills. But what has staggered me is the extent to which Our Guys absolutely suck at coordination and more importantly *calling shit out*

The only fucking time in the books where anyone actually does gets called out is when Birgitte (frankly, I so wish she would do us a favor and off her Aes Sedai) goes to Elayne, having talked to Mat, and finds out that they didn't even say thank you. And we see this scene from Nynaeve's POV, so we know she'd rather murder Mat than thank him for anything.

Frankly, I could understand all of these problems exist if RJ ever fucking killed anyone! But instead we are forced to watch as Our Guys routinely triumph over evil *because* good is dumb. It's the most broken Aesop I've ever seen.

The way Mat was written for 9 books makes me amazed that suddenly, in 10 and 11, he's unable to tell that fucking slave holder that she's absolutely full of it. Rather, he's falling in love with her. A really quick way of illustrating his point would have been to collar *her* and give the bracelet to Teslyn. I'm pretty sure Tuon will never get the memo until that happens.

Perrin's "storyline" these days leaves nothing good to be said.

But fundamentally it is Rand who has let this series drag out and seriously decline from its glory days.

I fucking hate the list too. It is indicative, as Leigh Butler over at Tor.com has pointed out in her recaps, of Rand's abject inability to respect the choices of any women. It really *is* a misogynist view of the world in the extreme, because Rand routinely denies any woman the right to choose her own path. Even Moiraine, who's probably the only one to deserve inclusion, should have been viewed in light of Lan's point to Rand after her "death", namely, that she was a soldier as much as he was, and that today was a good day to die, taking a Forsaken crazylady with her.

But if anything, what Moiraine's death ought to have shown Rand is that his incapability to deal with threats *no matter what gender the threat came from* will only lead to the deaths of more people, women included, and not lead to the creation of his psychotic list.

In general, actually, Rand has been turned by RJ into essentially this huge dick. A lot of people find Cadsuane annoying. But she's basically the *only* person left willing to slap him upside the head and call him out on his bullshit, *while still trying to help him achieve his goals*. Even the Supergirls, who might be willing to level with him, all seem to be convinced they know what he ought to be doing best.

Cads' only mission is to get him to the Last Battle while giving him back his humanity. And she's not exactly being helped by Elamindha. Frankly, the only suspense left in the series for me is whether she can succeed in bringing back the old Rand, who was awesome in the extreme.

My dearest wish is that someone can finally bring Moiraine to him, and allow him to collapse into tears again and laughter. Either that, or meeting Tam.

The sad thing is, I can even understand why Rand is how he is now, and that he might never actually get better. I know, and I'm sure RJ knew far more than me, plenty of friends who never could leave the Central Highlands or Khe Sanh or Da Nang or the Mekong or Hue or Saigon behind. I know guys from my late grandpa's VFW who still, in some ways, haven't left Okinawa behind sixty years later. :(

More to the point, I know guys around my - and Rand's - age that don't look like they'll be able to leave behind Baghdad or the Swat Valley.

[Guest Nadine]

A really quick way of illustrating his point would have been to collar *her* and give the bracelet to Teslyn. I'm pretty sure Tuon will never get the memo until that happens.

Bad way to start wooing your wife. :P Tho I totally agree on the suckitude of the grade school romance. GWAD.