Nobel Peace Prize

[The Progressive]

The conservatives would have attacked him as arrogant and demeaning the office of the president on an international scale.

Lol, they already done that over the Olympic nomination.

[Kalbear]

The conservatives would have attacked him as arrogant and demeaning the office of the president on an international scale. Fuck em, they are gonna attack regardless of what he does.

That's true - but I'd rather them attack him with an argument that makes sense and has some weight. Winning a prize for what he might be about to do is precisely in the conservative argument about Obama not accomplishing anything and being heaped praised for exactly that. I mean, really - right there.

I do think that the best thing that could have happened was that he simply doesn't win, but I don't think that declining the prize on the basis that he's still a wartime president would be unwarranted.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Lev,

Scot,

Since when did affirmation of Ameican leadership role became an acknowledgement of a vassalage relationship in which one is beholden to another?

I think you're grasping at really thin straws here, or drinking from the usual teabagged koolaid.

Nice ad hominum.

No, I'm saying presuming the award is an affirmation or reaffirmation of American leadership in Europe is presumptious without some statement from the committee to that effect.

[Annelise]

Lev,

No, I don't believe they've explicitely rejected American leadership. However, you don't find it a tad presumptious for Pres. Obama to presume his award is a reaffirmation of "American Leadership"? In fact as far as I know no European nation has ever explicitly accepted U.S. Hegemony. Even NATO is presumed, on its face, to be an alliance of equals.

I took this away, "We think you're on the right track with x and y. It's hard to make progress on those things if America is ignoring them, or working against them, so we hope you keep America moving in a positive direction on those things. May the force be with you, we tried to do our part FWIW."

And maybe he *was* peeing on a couple trees too, but I don't think it was Europe's.

But for people who think it should have been worded differently, cool. Sounds like they probably wrote the speech in an hour or two, though I expect they could have delayed a bit longer if they'd wanted.

[The Progressive]

Lev,

Nice ad hominum.

No, I'm saying presuming the award is an affirmation or reaffirmation of American leadership in Europe is presumptious without some statement from the committee to that effect.

Lol, so that's the angle from which the conservatives would have attacked Obama as arrogant, as Sword predicted.

[Swordfish]

I agree - but Obama had the chance to do some political judo and be someone who can have the Peace Prize accolade (in the sense that people want him to have it) while being able to say 'no, I don't deserve it' and depriving conservatives of another piece of ammunition and helping at home somewhat.

:lol:

Awesome!

Obama should have declined because someone might use it against him!

Love it!

[Annelise]

and depriving conservatives of another piece of ammunition and helping at home somewhat.

Yeah.. I posted earlier on what I think them attacking him over this will gain them. And anyway, that attack has been around for a year and a half now. Can't make decisions just based on what some conservatives will try to make hay over, especially when they're gonna make hay regardless.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Lev,

Lol, so that's the angle from which the conservatives would have attacked Obama as arrogant, as Sword predicted.

So, if Bush had said the same thing after being awarded the Nobel in Bizarro world you wouldn't be drawing the same conclusion? If it's arrogent for Bush to make that presumption it's arrogent for Pres. Obama to make the same presumption.

[The Progressive]

Lev,

So, if Bush had said the same thing after being awarded the Nobel in Bizarro world you wouldn't be drawing the same conclusion? If it's arrogent for Bush to make that presumption it's arrogent for Pres. Obama to make the same presumption.

If Bush had said the same thing after being awarded the Nobel in Bizarro world, I would think that whatever he said wouldn't be too presumptious for a man who's the second-coming of Christ.

[Annelise]

Lev,

So, if Bush had said the same thing after being awarded the Nobel in Bizarro world you wouldn't be drawing the same conclusion? If it's arrogent for Bush to make that presumption it's arrogent for Pres. Obama to make the same presumption.

But that's sort of a weird thing to say when part of the reason they supposedly gave Obama the award is his approach to international diplomacy. As opposed to Bush's, which, as we all know was .. unpopular abroad, thought of as arrogant, etc.

ETA: Suffice it to say, based on his policies and decisions, hecks yeah it would be taken as arrogant by Bush. Oh my goodness, yes. Might still be so for Obama too, but I think the difference in approaches do matter, though to what extent I can't judge.

[Marcelo Rebelo Firqoralas]

Honestly, the Norwegians have been mismanaging the peace prize for decades now. They should wait to 10-20 years to see if the work pans out, just like they do in all the other categories.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Annelise,

You can't judge because not enough time has passed.

[CloudFlare]

The Prize was for the Gates-Crowley Beer Summit, which brought peace to cops and blacks in America.

Duh.

[Annelise]

Annelise,

You can't judge because not enough time has passed.

Sure we can, to the present. Whether it will be the same, better or worse tomorrow, that we can't know. The point is, what they do is part of the equation on how they are perceived. Just trying to sub what Obama said into Bush's mouth ignores other, very relevant factors.

[Crazydog7]

What the hell? The Nobel peace prize is like the Grammies now?

Obama?

You know some of the glammer is starting to come off for me. Really I don't see any difference so far between his policies and Bush's policies. Obama is more articulate and perhaps the retoric has gotten a little more polite but we are still invoved in 2 useless and bloody wars, Gitmo is still opened, umemployment is still high, dont ask don't tell is still in place and national health care remains an elusive dream.

Honestly what the hell happened to "Hope and Change" nowadays its lets keep things as they are.

Yeah next time his slogan should be "don't rock the boat you might piss people off"

At least he's sounds sinceare the other party is even worse the party of non issues if I meet one more birther I am going to punch them in the face. Also Obama is not going to steal God or your gun from you grow up. Also if you like to whine and bitch about the stimulus packages remember that good old King George got the ball rolling. Hey if Palin is the best you idiots can do you've already lost.

[Andriy Czarchenko]

Couple points.

1. Obama´s speach was not acceptance speech but accepting to receive speech. The acceptance speech will be given in Norway in December.

2. Attacking Obama over receiving an award he probably didn´t even know he was nominated for is bloody stupid.

[Tempra]

Couple points.

1. Obama´s speach was not acceptance speech but accepting to receive speech. The acceptance speech will be given in Norway in December.

2. Attacking Obama over receiving an award he probably didn´t even know he was nominated for is bloody stupid.

Agreed. Whatever fault, if any, belongs to the nobel peace prize committee.

[Arthmail]

This is worth it just to see all the idiot talking heads and wingnuts and Republicans in general losing their fucking minds. Rush is coming out and saying he sides with the Taliban, which only goes to show how out of touch Republicans are with much of anything that is going on.

This next part, cribbed from another post, is what needs to be examined the hardest:

one part to the person who shall have produced in the field of literature the most outstanding work of an idealistic tendency; and one part to the person who shall have done the most or the best work for fraternity among nations, for the abolition or reduction of standing armies and for the holding and promotion of peace congresses.

This is what Obama has done. Saying that he's still overseeing two wars, and takes a hard stance on Iran and not on Israel is just so much hot wind. In fact, lets call it for what it is, bullshit. The fact of the matter is that while only within his first term, he has started a great deal of work in repairing multi-lateral relations with the rest of the world. The US is no longer seen as divisively as it was only two years ago. I think those that bitch and moan about him not deserving it are forgetting the sheer hate that was felt by many towards Bush and his policies, and for some, America by extension. Obama has gone out of his way to start the reversal of those policies.

Yes, he has been saddled with two wars that he is still embroiled in. (Though i will point out, as someone did before, they are not of his making, and while i wish he would call them to a close, he cannot be blamed for their inception - as someone on this board even implied). But he has also been trying to make substantive change within his own country, namely in terms of health care, while dealing with a financial crisis bought about in part, though not in entirity, by his successors and the same idiot Republicans that are decrying his win even now.

The idea that he should deny the prize is also idiotic. What the prize represents is not politics, but the idea that change can come. I don't know if any of you naysayers remember the last eight years under Bush, but i certainly do, and the climate of hate and devisiveness that was present under him is, while not gone entirely, much reduced.

Change does not happen over night, but slowly. It has started, and i think within the next few years we will see the full extent of that change.

Personally, i think all of the idiocy from the Republicans will only further prove that they are a regional party at best. Instead of being proud that their president is being honoured (many seem to forget that they lobbied pretty hard to get Bush a peace prize), they are raving and ranting. This prize will in no way shape or form damaged Obama, because while there may be some that think he doesn't deserve it, those that are losing their minds over the entire affair were not going to vote for him in any case.

[Ser Reptitious]

Great post, Arthmail! I have to admit I was quite sceptical when I first heard about the nomination, but I gotta admit that arguments such as the ones posted by you (and a few others in this thread) are slowly winning me over to believing that the Nobel committee did the right thing after all!

[Ormond]

2. Attacking Obama over receiving an award he probably didn´t even know he was nominated for is bloody stupid.

I am definitely not one who is attacking him.

But if he didn't know he was probably nominated for this he's a lot less informed and intelligent than I believe him to be. Given that thousands of people have nomination rights, including every member of every national legislature in the world, it would be remarkable if every sitting US President wasn't nominated every year. Even though nominations are not officially released for 50 years, we know that George W. Bush was nominated for the Prize while he was President because some of those who nominated him released that information themselves.