So I just read the first Malazan book

[thornofcamorr]

Wow. I don't remember like any of this stuff. I think the only way to read this series is to reread all the previous books before a new one comes out. Erikson is ridiculously complicated.

[polishgenius]

This gets carried to EXTREME lengths later in the series, by Erikson and Esslemont both:

SPOILER: examples

RotCG when the random Seguleh Malazan soldier is able to hold off one of the most feared creatures in the world, Ryllanderas, without the aid of magic or allies.

RG? maybe? whichever book it is when suddenly the random autistic soldier is able to defeat the massed power of the Tiste Edur and Crippled God single-handedly, after being mentioned maybe a grand total of one time before that book.

Sinn, saving them from the firestorm.

Etc... etc... etc...

SPOILER: examples

The only one of these that really works is the second one, with Beak, who came a bit out of nowhere- Sinn was built up as a big deal a long time before she did anything major, and the Seguleh scare the shit out of everyone.

The most annoying anticlimactic fight was the one in Bonehunters with the critter in the prologue built up as this huge deal then taken out easily

Arrgh can't stand anticlimactic fights.

To be fair, for all that some of his fights are this, many others are FUCKING AWESOME, so you should be covered.

Rake is part of Shadowthrone and he resist Annamas(or whatever his name is) so why not Cotillion.

Rake is Dark, Ammanas is Shadow. Though the Cotillion thing is odd anyway in hindsight of later books.

[jurble]

The Gods seemed weird and terrifying in the GotM, and then they just kept showing up in the later books, and now

SPOILER: books

Gods aren't even that interesting, nor does it make sense really, someone progressively gets more awesome, and attracts fanboys and suddenly at some point he becomes a God, whether he wants it or not, i.e. Dessembrae. Sometimes people go straight from mortal to god, sometimes from dead to god, there's like a hundred different paths to get to Godhood. And everyone does it.

And, I haven't read the new book yet, but I still don't get Rake's death, maybe it's answered. Where exactly do dead Ascendants go? I mean, I don't see exactly see Hood's Realm being capable of holding Rake...

[Horza]

Possibly the saddest thing about Malazan is that none of the characters have a life.

[End of Disc One]

Last thing: The guy who said Malazan is better than asoiaf should be shunned now.

Now? Way to let other people influence your opinion. You could try actually reading other books in the series before saying something like this and trying to look cool.

Also I've been on other literature message boards, and this one definitely hates Malazan more than the others.

[Zach H]

Last thing: The guy who said Malazan is better than asoiaf should be shunned now.

That's kind of silly. I prefer Erikson to Martin provided I'm in the mood for a stylized sword and sorecery epic. And I prefer Martin when I want steady buildups and a more down to earth brand of feudal intrigue. Both are very different writers to me, and each have their own set of strenghts and weaknesses.

[Arakasi]

Possibly the saddest thing about Malazan is that none of the characters have a life.

Considering that the Malazan books have one of the best female characters ever in the history of fantasy literature (aka Felisin) that is blatantly false.

As for Foxhunt, if you enjoy the books read them, if you don't than don't. Just don't let others here (whether they be fanboys or critics) tell you what to think. Find out for yourself.

Edit: Lots of people prefer Erikson to Martin. Hint: You're not going to find very many of them on a Martin board. Shockingly enough if you go to the Malazan forums the ratio is pretty much the opposite.

[jurble]

Malazan is pretty much a literary comic book.

[Arakasi]

Malazan is pretty much a literary comic book.

I think people tend to focus too much on the explosions/pyrotechnics. There is a lot of deep themes going on in the series. Whether it be politcal thinking on capitalism (MT), or the theme of family from TtH, or the arc of Felisin's character, etc. There is a lot of deep stuff in there. But it is mixed with a lot of the aforementioned pyro and big time sorcery. It makes for a weird mix and there are a couple different levels the series can be read on. But I can see how it can be compared to a comic book, but I would say its more Gaiman for example than X-Men.

[Eurytus]

The thinking on capitalism in Midnight Tides may be deep compared to Terry Goodkind's political musings but its hardly anything special now is it?

And Felisin might be a stand out character by Malazan standards, which is not hard when most of them are either identical marines or rule-of-cool D&D characters but she is no better a female character than several in ASOIAF for example.

[kungtotte]

I think my main issue with Erikson is the wasted potential. Basically, the Malazan books are the literary equivalent of Michael Bay movies. Transformers was pretty good (let's not speak of the sequel), but imagine how much better it could have been? It wouldn't even have been difficult to get there.

Also, Erikson is guilty of plenty of the Do Not's of writing. I forget the names of the various flaws, but one Erikson stumbles into a lot is the "Look at what I learned/know" one. It's great that an author takes the time to immerse himself in the subject, to learn all those little quirks and cultural traits that turn Generic Steppe People into Steppe People You Can Believe in, or whatever. But don't shove this knowledge down the throats of your readers, use it for flavour and not substance. For example, he repeatedly tells the reader about why you camp on top of hills instead of in gullies: the wind keeps the bugs away. Cool. Tell us that once. Don't let every travelling party bring it up.

Another thing he does is he falls in love with specific words, and keeps using them over, and over, and over again. If something really is turgid, then 'turgid' is a perfectly cromulent word to describe it with. But maybe not everything needs to be turgid in the Malazan world? Think about it. Also, 'skein'. We get the effect you are going for when you use that word, but pick up a thesaurus or something, because I don't want to read about the skeins of magic/fire/chaos/darkness fifty times per book.

He should also look up the definition of consistency, and then strive to achieve it. Oh and Steve, look up deus ex machina when you're at it.

That being said, I should get back to Dust of Dreams now. If nothing else, I have to know what happens to the Bridgeburners.

[Arakasi]

The thinking on capitalism in Midnight Tides may be deep compared to Terry Goodkind's political musings but its hardly anything special now is it?

And Felisin might be a stand out character by Malazan standards, which is not hard when most of them are either identical marines or rule-of-cool D&D characters but she is no better a female character than several in ASOIAF for example.

Actually for the fantasy genre it pretty much is. Compared to the current FotM authors like Lynch, Abercombie, Rothfuss, etc its a big step up. It's not like most of the modern fantasy genre tries to do anything ambitious at all. Bakker is another good example of someone exploring themes.

I agree with you on the second point to a degree. Too much time has been spent on the soldiers and its watered things down somewhat. I wish he would spend less time on some of those characters. Fiddler is good, random X marine not so good. Felisin I would argue is a better female character than any in ASOIAF (see Cerys' posts a long time back on a good explanation for why its one of the very rare times a male has written a female character successfully when dealing with sexuality), the problem is that its inconsistent. There are great characters in Malazan, but then there are cardboard thin ones too. Any author would likely do well with some selective editing at times, but overall you just gotta take the bad with the good.

[Eurytus]

I would personally put both Sansa and her mother above Felisin.

The main problem with Felisin, as is so often the case with Erikson, is that he kills off one of the most interesting characters in an incredibly cheap way for no real reason. He did the same with Trull. He seems overly enamoured of certain characters, especially those he tells us are funny like Kruppe and Tehol & Bugg and constantly writes about them. Meanwhile the more interesting ones either get killed off cheaply, left out of 2 or 3 books on the trot or given over to Esslemont so we have to buy even less well written books about Malazan to find out about them.

I gave up on the Wheel of Time when I found myself wanting to skip not just entire chapters but pretty much whole segments of books (and on some occasion the entire book). In the last few books, in fact since Midnight Tides really, Erikson has been heading heavily in the same way. With the first 3 books I had him a little below Martin in my ranking but each book since then has reduced him further. Midnight Tides mitigated it a little despite being almost entirely unrelated to that which preceded it, but since then its been a steep decline. I think the completely inconsequential and boring Redmask storyline may have tipped it finally over the edge.

[williamjm]

SPOILER: hood

If you recall, at one point, the Ghost-Bridgeburners(i believe), are traveling through that Hold which holds all them undead-Imass where that one broken Imass's son lives, you know, the Imass who had a kid with Tool's sister, where that son lives with all his undead-but alive looking Imass buddies, and Quick Ben rapes those dragons (before being ported out to fight Icarium), anyway, while they're there, I kinda imagined the Warrens and holds are concentric spheres or something, and they're walking that place up through the bottom of Hood's Warren, if you recall, and before they enter the bottom of Hood's Warren, they find a Jaghut corpse on a throne, in a glacial warren, surrounded by a shit ton of Jaghut corpses, I've always taken this to imply, Hood was the Jaghut god, but as his people died, he became the God of Death.

SPOILER: Reapers Gale? Maybe

I do remember that scene, and did also assume that the Jaghut on the throne was Hood's body. I didn't think of it implying he had been a God beforehand, but I guess it is possible that you're right. I suspect it is related to the Jaghut War that Kallor and Gothos discuss in Toll The Hounds.

That is another thing. I still don't get why Oponn got involved. Was it just to fuck with everyone? They didn't seem to have a goal

Your first guess is pretty much right. Meddling with things that are none of their business is their entire purpose of existence - they are the Gods of chance, after all.

[kungtotte]

Tehol and Bugg are objectively funny though. I would read eight books about those two alone, because they are hilarious. Iskaral Pust and Mogora could feature, too.

That said, I agree with you. Erikson falls way too much in love with his characters, and there's very little in the terms of coherency in the series, to the point where I'm wondering if he's even trying to write a series of books or if he's just writing Cool Stuff That Takes Place In My Roleplaying Setting.

SPOILER: The entire series

What happened to Quick Ben's quest to save Burn from the Crippled God's venom? Why did Krul manifest as Keruli, get all hot and bothered about things and then fuck off? Where did Ganoes Paran and an entire frickin' Malazan legion go? What happened to the Moranth? Where is Leoman of the Flails and Whiskeyjack's damned sister now that the Queen of Dreams snatched them? Where are the Nameless Ones now?

So many plots that went nowhere.

[Foxhunt]

Now? Way to let other people influence your opinion. You could try actually reading other books in the series before saying something like this and trying to look cool.

Also I've been on other literature message boards, and this one definitely hates Malazan more than the others.

I was joking guy. Sorry if it was misunderstood. I have to learn internet joke skills.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Arrgh can't stand anticlimactic fights. But if other stuff is explained later I will give it a shot. My final decision will be when I finish Deadhouse Gate. Thanks for the help good ladies and gentlemen.

There are plenty of fight scenes that will be so non-anticlimactic that this will be made up for. Like I said, these were anticlimactic to make a specific point about the world.

SPOILER: The entire series

What happened to Quick Ben's quest to save Burn from the Crippled God's venom? Why did Krul manifest as Keruli, get all hot and bothered about things and then fuck off? Where did Ganoes Paran and an entire frickin' Malazan legion go? What happened to the Moranth? Where is Leoman of the Flails and Whiskeyjack's damned sister now that the Queen of Dreams snatched them? Where are the Nameless Ones now?

So many plots that went nowhere.

SPOILER: the entire series

1. QB resolved that plotline at the end of Memories of Ice. The Jaghut who was in charge of the Pannion Domin went to Morn, where the Rent was resealed with the Matron's soul (IIRC - it might also have been a T'lan Imass, but I doubt it) and he got his sister back. QB then took them both into Burn and they put the dying Warren of Omtose Phellack inside of Burn's Warren (somehow), which cooled the sickness and either stopped its advancement completely or slowed it to such a slow trickle that they gained time to deal with the problem further.

2. I think he was frustrated because people were not taking him seriously. I'm still not sure what his point was, though, as a character, except to get Gruntle and co. to Capustan.

3. I have no idea, I don't even remember this happening. I thought he was with the Bonehunters?

4. Presumably they are still living in the Cloud Forest, except the Black Moranth, most of whom seem to be dead. I don't know where else they would have gone, or why everyone thinks something happened to them. The war on Genabackis is essentially over, so they went home.

5. Probably they'll surface again before the end in one of the books. Or it could be that their abduction was supposed to be considered an end to their character arc, though that would be out of character for Erikson.

6. They're dead, I believe. Actually dead, not just Malazan dead ;)

[Gormenghast]

Another thing he does is he falls in love with specific words, and keeps using them over, and over, and over again. If something really is turgid, then 'turgid' is a perfectly cromulent word to describe it with. But maybe not everything needs to be turgid in the Malazan world? Think about it. Also, 'skein'. We get the effect you are going for when you use that word, but pick up a thesaurus or something, because I don't want to read about the skeins of magic/fire/chaos/darkness fifty times per book.

I noticed this is a new trend that is picking up, so I went looking.

In Toll the Hounds:

Skein appears 8 times

Turgid appears 6 times

In Reaper's Gale:

Skein appears 10 times

Turgid appears 9 times

In The Bonehunters:

Skein appears 14 times

Turgid appears 12 times

Midnight Tides:

Skein appears 8 times

Turgid appears 7 times

House of Chains:

Skein appears 9 times

Turgid appears 4 times

Looks like more your problem than his.

[jurble]

I didn't find Felisin a good character, I personally hated her, maybe the fact she made me hate her was a good sign, but all she did was complain. And about the Black Moranth, please tell me they're under protected status and allowed to reproduce, like i said in an earlier post, in the Pannion War, they seemed to be dying the tens of thousands every minute, I honestly felt for them, and the fact that no one seemed to care that Twist was dying right in front of everyone.

[Arakasi]

Most of the plot holes most people list aren't really plot holes. Erikson has actually done a pretty good job of wrapping things up. DoD for example converged a lot of storylines that had been going on for a while.

There are some fuckups though, especially the timeline. (which is odd since the characters introduced that messed up the timeline are not important to the story told) Werthead went over that well in the DoD thread. There I find is a compulsive need for science-fiction/fantasy fans to have a "this must all be wrapped up in the story" thing going on. I remember when Babylon 5 neared its conclusion the epic whining that went on about how certain things weren't wrapped up to their satisfaction. JMS' (and Erikson's) point is that life goes on, this is only a slice of the world. Sure a lot of important stuff happens and gets concluded. However not every rivalry gets the epic conclusion we want and things don't always end the way we want them to, like the ones Eurytus mentioned.

There was a scene in Deadhouse Gates I believe where some characters were travelling through a warren. They saw some dragons flying, travelling as well. They were clearly powerful. Who were they, what did they want? Did they have anything to do with the storyline? As far as we can tell 8 books later no they haven't come back yet. But it showed (and Erikson has done this elsewhere) that there is a larger world going on and some powerful beings aren't going to be involved in the shit that ends all shit. Too much fantasy in my opinion comes off as a written version of March Madness. Take your group of characters, match them off, kill them or defeat them and get to the smaller group. Then have the championship game, get your winners and losers and that's it.

Also I don't see how people can go "Erikson cares too much about his characters" and also complain that he kills off the best ones. Those two things are kinda polar opposites.

Also please watch the spoilers. This is a book about just reading the first book and some huge spoilers out here (Eurytus especially)