Questioning the faith

[Lord Mord]

silent speaker,

Yes. So what? I'm not saying that results consistent with the hypothesis prove it true; I'm saying that you are wrong in asserting that those same results prove it false.

If the premise is not proved false, then the word ceases to have any meaning in context, because no god could ever be found non-benevolent. Isn't that true?

[Daenerys' Sex Slave]

silent speaker,

If the premise is not proved false, then the word ceases to have any meaning in context, because no god could ever be found non-benevolent. Isn't that true?

I would have to disagree, many gods could be considered cruel.

[Lord Mord]

Daenerys' Sex Slave,

I would have to disagree, many gods could be considered cruel.

My apologies, I forgot to be exact.

What I would have done better to say is that, "No god who claims benevolence could ever be wrong, even if two gods' definitions of benevolence were mutually exclusive."

BTW -- I've not seen you before, or else not much. Welcome!

[Daenerys' Sex Slave]

Daenerys' Sex Slave,

My apologies, I forgot to be exact.

What I would have done better to say is that, "No god who claims benevolence could ever be wrong, even if two gods' definitions of benevolence were mutually exclusive."

BTW -- I've not seen you before, or else not much. Welcome!

Just joined yesterday. Been lurking for a few months now and with the pilot filming I went into ASOIAF withdrawl and needed to be with fellow sufferers. Thanks for the welcome. :)

[Crazydog7]

People bookmark this page because this is going the only time I will ever quote John Galt (I hope) but it goes.

A=A. A Thing is Itself no more no less. I still attend the various prayer groups two by myself one with my mother and tonight I witnessed people praying (in some cases sobbing) begging God to make them “like God” I have never considered the proposal from the point of view of an outside observer a bunch of hysterics losing their collective shit over (mostly) imagined transgressions. We are not Gods or like Gods nor are we likely to transcend to such a state simply by believing. I have come to conclusion that my left shoe is more likely to sprout wings and fly away then I am ever to become more patient, loving, or kind simply because I pray for it. Any goodness in you comes from within even though it is more comforting for some to ascribe it to an external source. If God is ultimately responsible for our God actions that means that something else (Satan, The Devil whatever you want to call it is responsible for the evil things. To try to come to grips with the idea of life without a magic helper means that while you are the source of your own good you are also the source of your own evil through your actions and decisions.

After the prayer meeting I (yet again) tried to explain my feelings to my mother. It started with the concept of prayer (one of our members has a job interview tomorrow) I pointed out that should he get the job he will automatically praise the Lord for employment and sustenance. If he doesn’t get the job he will thank the Lord for teaching him patience and humility. At this my mother said to me Quote “Don’t ruin it for me”

Now what the fuck is this? A movie that I’m supposed to reveal the ending to? However she thought about it and she immediately redeemed herself in my eyes by laughing and saying “Shit Jon you’re 26 years old its about time you started voicing your opinions”

So she asked me if I was still comfortable attending group and I said yes even though I now look upon the whole affair as rather foolish because I believe that gatherings of people to exchange ideas fulfill a vital role in society. Then she asked me if I was going to try to convert her to atheism. Then I understood one of my main stumbling blocks from back when I was a Christian “defending the faith” on the board. Thinking for yourself outside of a religious structure is not about conversion its about not letting others tell you what to think. That’s why I can’t pin down what exactly I am atheist or agnostic such labels don’t matter to me anymore. Its important for me and only me to know how I feel about a particular issue.

I am midway through “Losing Faith in Faith” right now and while it its not convert anyone it is exactly what I need to read right now the story of how a preacher became an atheist. I will post some more when I finish it and when I have had some sleep and my thoughts are a little more organized.

I have tried to find the basis for some moral code though. Its from a book called The Devil’s Apocrypha an otherwise unmitigated hunk of shit of a book but one section “The Book of Philosophies” I always liked and does have merit considering the interesting situation I find myself in. Its not perfect by any means and is obviously a mish-mash of points of view on the subject that the author pulled out of his ass from somewhere but I think it’s a good beginning.

I have cut out as much of crap as I can.

Nothing is impossible limits are without limit but if you believe this not to be the case you will be proved correct.

If an inequity is found do not stand idle for it is the lot of man to strive to improve. The seer must be the doer.

Judge and Let yourself be judged for that is my right as a being of freewill. Live a goodly life so if judged falsely by others it matters not.

If I follow the thoughts and teachings of others without adding anything of my own I am as a beast of burden and have wasted my soul.

Do not carry the sins of the father with you for you are responsible for your own actions not the actions of your tribe, nation or race.

Allow the children to live and think freely for the mother and the father don’t know everything

Believe in yourself and serve no other but do not shut out opposing teachers for other points of view may be clearer then your own.

There is no sin. Do what you think is right through this only will you find happiness. However be warned we share the world with others and all actions have consciences.

Let morality guide you but not out of fear follow it for its own sake.

Blessed is he who finds wisdom and seeks knowledge for these will prove more precious then gold.

Do onto others as you would do onto them as is your right as a being of free will. Remember that others are also beings of free will able to act as they see fit. Temper all actions with sound judgment.

A man may do all he wishes to do, however it may not always be wise for him to do so.

Truth is beauty but beauty is not truth. Knowledge is Power but Power is not knowledge.

Your path in life must be of your own choosing if it leads to misery so be it at least it is a misery of your own choosing remember you can always try again.

He who lives without purpose lives without life. If you have no goals you will accomplish nothing.

Don’t curse others if your own life is in disorder. If you are incorrect in an action state so plainly and work to correct it.

Death comes to us all. Accept it and live life as if it were untrue.

At times no favorable options are left open to you. When this happens you must choose the lesser of two evils.

Friends are precious but family is sacred. When your need is greatest they will always be there. NEVER ABANDON THEM.

History is not a fixed thing. While an event is constant the interpretation is always fluid.

Others may lead you to the water of temptation but only one can drink. If you want to seek blame then blame yourself.

Errors and forgiveness are the traits of humanity. Strive to be human do not strive to be gods.

Do not subjugate yourself before God or Man. It is better to die free then to live as sheep.

Give Freely Love Freely and expect nothing. In this you will find true happiness.

Search for the strength within the self. It is within stronger then you will ever know.

If you wish to die then you are already dead.

Until Life has given you the worst you will never know what your best can be.

[Lord Mord]

Actually, I have a lot of respect for praying to be a better person.

I am reminded, for whatever it's worth, of Evan Almighty, in which God explains prayer. He says that when people pray for patience, what does God do? Does he make them more patient, or does he present them with opportunities to be patient?

I don't know that there is a great metacosmic being out there that actually makes more opportunities happen. At the very least, however, I believe that prayer, as with most any form of meditation, increases our awareness of our own lives as they develop. If we pray for patience, then whatever else literally happens out there in the cosmos, at least internally it's like an auto-suggestion/reminder to choose patience when the next opportunity arises.

Even venal prayers qualify: when we pray for wealth we sharpen our concentration on financial opportunities. If we are simultaneously and persistently engaged with the world, in an outgoing, patient, learning and adapting fashion, then we will develop an editing eye so as not to jump into every fraud and trap that comes our way.

[Galactus]

How did that "one prayer you really need" go?

"Give me the willingness to change what needs changing, the patience to endure what cannot be changed and the wisdom to know the difference."?

[MinDonner]

Not sure about that. I mean, praying for patience is kinda like training your pet rock to "stay!" - being patient and praying are pretty much the same thing, both being forms of inaction.

Praying for other stuff that involves *action* is a whole other matter. The whole concept of asking a nonexistent entity to help you out of your problems (rather than, y'know, actually DOING something yourself) just seems a wrongheaded way of going about it.

For some people, sure, it can be a way of focusing your thoughts on how to help yourself with a particular situation, but in general it just seems like an abdication of responsibility. Just wishing really hard is not going to have much effect on the universe.

[Daenerys' Sex Slave]

The only thing I need patience for is women. <3 Dany :)

[Lord Mord]

MinDonner,

For some people, sure, it can be a way of focusing your thoughts on how to help yourself with a particular situation, but in general it just seems like an abdication of responsibility. Just wishing really hard is not going to have much effect on the universe.

I don't see how it's an abdication.

It takes a lot of energy and intention to develop strong prayer/meditation habits. I don't see how that's possible unless you've taken a deep sense of responsibility about the matter. Is it possible that you'll see how to resolve the problem yourself without meditation? Sure, in theory, why not? But if in practice it is a useful tool for bringing solutions forward in your mind, then what's wrong with that?

[MinDonner]

But is praying really about searching for solutions? Or is it more like just asking someone else to fix stuff for you? And if it's really just about considering your options and working out what to do yourself, why do you need to involve God at all?

[Lord Mord]

MinDonner,

But is praying really about searching for solutions? Or is it more like just asking someone else to fix stuff for you? And if it's really just about considering your options and working out what to do yourself, why do you need to involve God at all?

I think it's easy, especially for people who've already managed to do it very well without god, to believe that thinking about things and solving problems is easy as just sitting down right now and doing it.

Long-term life-planning is rather more difficult than that for most people. It takes a lot of work to shape your mind to make solving problems your practice, rather than postponing them. Meditation is one tool available for this process. As such, it's not that the prayer itself is the search, nor did I ever suggest that it was.

If the form of meditation with which you are most comfortable is religious in nature, probably to do with how one was raised, I fail to see that as a mark against anyone. Rather than "involving God," it's more like "choosing not to cross the additional hurdles of having to evict God."

[Stalker]

Even in a Godless deterministic universe, we seek to hold people accountable for their actions, which is ideally along Rawls' line of "justice as fairness." Justice is ambiguous in this passage. We are not sure what fair is, because we have nothing equivalent to compare it with. So we cannot be sure whether or not God's commitment and judgment to holding Adam and Eve responsible is fair.

But your ideal is something personal, not a description of actual reality. I don't think either of us would have trouble finding cases where observable reality is at a mismatch with that ideal. Or any other, to be sure. You are of course right that there is nothing comparable to the situation, and that fairness thus must be seen as moot.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

But is praying really about searching for solutions? Or is it more like just asking someone else to fix stuff for you? And if it's really just about considering your options and working out what to do yourself, why do you need to involve God at all?

Prayer is also about praise, thanksgiving, and remembrance. God is also invoked for petition for the strength or clarity to make their discernment between choices clear and the hope that their choices will lead to fruitful or appropriate outcomes. I do admit though that prayer does often end up like this, but I think that just reflects the prosperity gospel plus people who frequently confuse God for Santa Claus.

[Eponine]

I don't see how it's an abdication.

It takes a lot of energy and intention to develop strong prayer/meditation habits. I don't see how that's possible unless you've taken a deep sense of responsibility about the matter. Is it possible that you'll see how to resolve the problem yourself without meditation? Sure, in theory, why not? But if in practice it is a useful tool for bringing solutions forward in your mind, then what's wrong with that?

There are certainly people with strong prayer habits and a sense of personal responsibility- insofar as they see situations that arise after the prayer as being put there by god. But, I think you're talking about a ideal minority. Consider the number of praying people who see prayer as giving up their responsibility... they asked god for patience (or whatever) and now it's god's job to make sure they get it. Or those who despite praying every single day, multiple times a day, have no real discipline- they just ask for stuff and thank god for this and that- stream of consciousness type stuff- which may have some benefit but isn't what I'd call meditation.

[Lord Mord]

Eponine,

That may be true. However, I'm talking about not having a problem with prayer as I like to think of prayer. I assume when people say that they pray that this is what they are talking about -- what reason have I to suspect them?

[Prince Who Was Promised]

So, you'd let me kill my mother?

"Well ... *shrugs* After all, his God told him to! Who was I to say no?"

What else are you going to do? Is your obligation to your earthly mother excede that of your Creator? But don't forget, God didn't let Abraham kill his son.

At some point, faith necessarily requires you to work to your own material detriment. Otherwise, there is no need for faith, because faith would be indistinguishable from selfishness.

Faith also requires sustenance in the face of delayed gratification, or else it would still be a kind of selfishness.

I still keep the faith, saying to myself, "Someday, my God will rescue me."

And then I die.

Now, you're telling me that I could take comfort and warmth from the knowledge that when I die, because I was faithful my soul goes to heaven (provided I've also met whatever other preconditions the correct offshoot of religious faith has set). The problem with that is that you don't even know that for sure.

Your god is beyond reproach. If he sent me to hell after all that, how would you even know? And then, even if you found out, on what basis could you deign to question his attitude?

We could say that an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent being would have no reason to lie, but surely that's a human construct, and therefore by it God is not actually bound?

Well of course God's beyond reproach. This isn't the Belgariad where you can kill a God for doing stuff you don't like, or there's a council of Gods who balance each other out. If God sends you to hell even when you do as you should (religiously speaking), then there's really no reason for Him to ask for your worship.

If God continually claims to reward the faithful (even doing it in the Bible), then there's no point in punishing them. While there are no grounds for anyone to judge God, I highly doubt He'd send you to Hell for following Him.

--

And yes, we can say that God has no reason to lie. But that's a logical appoach. If an all-powerful, all knowledgeable, and all-present God has to lie, then clearly He lacks one of these omnis.

Well, no it's not, since if we follow a strict parallel, the parents should have the power to make it so the children understands, to make it so flu doesn't exist in the first place, or to make it so flu shot are craved by the child. Are you saying God isn't omnipotent?

No. I'm saying that we can't always understand why God does the things He does. The infant doesn't understand why the things are going the way they are, just like us. If God has chosen this path for the world, then it's for a reason. Just because one cannot comprehend something doesn't mean it's not there.

[Lord Mord]

PWWP,

What else are you going to do? Is your obligation to your earthly mother excede that of your Creator? But don't forget, God didn't let Abraham kill his son.

My behavior in this example is not at issue. My point is: what does religious thinking foster in the way of practical on-the-ground results? I have a hard time believing that your genuine response in this circumstance would be, "Oop! Nope! Gotta be hands-off on this one, because I don't want to get in the way of what's holy. Murder? Pffft. Murder nothing -- it's worship!"

Am I wrong to be so incredulous?

Well of course God's beyond reproach. This isn't the Belgariad where you can kill a God for doing stuff you don't like, or there's a council of Gods who balance each other out. If God sends you to hell even when you do as you should (religiously speaking), then there's really no reason for Him to ask for your worship. If God continually claims to reward the faithful (even doing it in the Bible), then there's no point in punishing them.

You've just made up that rule. I thought the whole point was that God is beyond our rules, because we could never possibly understand him. And my point is that a person who will judge his religion, judge his god by that god's behavior, would, if they knew that God was arbitrarily sending people to hell, probably change faiths or even adopt atheism.

Judging from the explanations that Christians typically give for not questioning their god, I have to assume that even if they knew it was actually all arbitrary and the injunctions to behave this way or that were basically lies, would continue to worship God anyway. After all, he's the omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent one who made everything and whose ways are beyond questioning.

I highly doubt He'd send you to Hell for following Him.

I admire your guilelessness and simplicity here. I'm sure, however, that you can appreciate that your personal convictions, as they form not in the least any bonds on God's actual behavior, nor can they represent any actual knowledge of his character, which is unknowable, can hardly be enough to convince me of His good intentions. If I died a good Christian right now, you wouldn't know what happened to me, and if I were sent to hell, your convictions would be scarcely any comfort there.

And yes, we can say that God has no reason to lie. But that's a logical appoach. If an all-powerful, all knowledgeable, and all-present God has to lie, then clearly He lacks one of these omnis.

But that's my point. You've said that God is not bound by logic. If he were, then we would have to hold him accountable for all sin, which means that holding him accountable is a necessary condition of his being logical. If he's not accountable, then he's not logical, and if he's not logical, then what do we really know about this person? Nothing. We can't trust any of our sensory observations, nor history, nor promises, nor anything.

[Crazydog7]

I am reminded, for whatever it's worth, of Evan Almighty, in which God explains prayer. He says that when people pray for patience, what does God do? Does he make them more patient, or does he present them with opportunities to be patient?

God didn't explain prayer in Evan Almighty Morgan Freeman did.

[TrueMetis]

God didn't explain prayer in Evan Almighty Morgan Freeman did.

Same thing :cool: