World Cup 2010 - Prelude to South Africa

[DJDonegal]

Only one of them (Cameroon) has ever gotten to the quarter-finals and they only managed it once.

In fact, from the top of my head I can only recall two making the Quarter Finals - Cameroon in 1990 and Senegal in 2002.

[Altherion]

DJDonegal, Senegal did make the quarter finals in 2002, but they did not qualify this time around and thus are not in a position to challenge the traditional powers.

[DJDonegal]

Then you mentioning Cameroon as the only quarter finalists is pointless because that will have been 20 years ago by the time this competition starts.

I'm expecting next-to-nothing from the hosts and the other African nations competing in next summer's competition. There's very few world class African players that will be featuring. Michael Essien, Didier Drogba, and...who?

Samuel Eto'o. That's the only other one I could come up with.

[kuroishi]

I'm expecting next-to-nothing from the hosts and the other African nations competing in next summer's competition. There's very few world class African players that will be featuring. Michael Essien, Didier Drogba, and...who?

Even if they lack world-class players, the best African teams have a lot of players from top European teams. Just look at the Côte d'Ivoire squad : Eboué (Arsenal), Boka (Stuttgart), Demel (Hamburg), K. Touré (M. City), Zokora (Sevilla), Y. Touré (Barcelona), Romaric (Sevilla), Keita (Galatasaray), B. Koné (Marseille), S. Kalou (Chelsea), A. Koné (Sevilla), and of course Drogba (Chelsea)

That's quite impressive.

And their coach (Vahid Halilhodzic) is well known for the discipline in his teams, hopefully he should be able to turn them into a very efficient side.

[Fireball07]

Then you mentioning Cameroon as the only quarter finalists is pointless because that will have been 20 years ago by the time this competition starts.

Samuel Eto'o. That's the only other one I could come up with.

And Yaya Toure has really evolved as a player the last season or so. He's a top class player. And Seydou Keita has been absolutely brilliant for Barca this year. Mali aren't at the WC, but he's still African. And Adebayor.

Ghana have some very good players: Essien, Muntari, Pantsil, Gyan, Mensah and Appiah? (I don't know if he's still playing for them, he has severe injury players.

Ivory Coast would be the other very good African team with Drogba, the Toures, Zokora, Dindane...all good on the international stage.

Either of them could make the quarters with a kind draw.

As for the others.....Cameroon have Eto'o, Kameni, Makoun, Emana, some good players, but are certainly not as good as the above 2. Still, second round isn't impossible, depending on the group.

Similar for Nigeria, though they lack one class player in the mould of Eto'o/Drogba/Essien, but Martins, Yakubu, Uche, Mikel are all good. Similar to Cameroon IMO.

Algeria- I don't know much about them, can't see it happening really.

SA- Hosts always have an advantage, and Pienaar has been fantastic every time I've seen him for them. He actually looks like a top class player most times. His touch is beautiful, his passing is fantastic and he can beat players. If he can keep that up at the WC, he'll cut open even the best defences. Don't know if they have a top class finisher though, they seem to waste an awful lot of chances.

[DJDonegal]

When Ser Renasko said World Class, I figured he meant World Class. Ronaldo, Kaka, Ronaldinho in his day, Messi, etc etc. I don't deny the African nations have good players - just not World Class. But then England can only boast Rooney and Gerrard as World Class these days.

Though as you say, Adebayor would be World Class, but he's not going to be there this time.

[The Iceman of the North]

Rooney and Gerrard World Class, but not Drogba?

[Renasko]

When Ser Renasko said World Class, I figured he meant World Class.

Heh, quite so. It'll be interesting to see how many of those players the above posters quoted rise to the occasion.

As far as the England 'world class' players thing. Would you not call John Terry, Rio Ferdinand (not based on current form), Ashley Cole, Frank Lampard all 'world class'?

[kuroishi]

When Ser Renasko said World Class, I figured he meant World Class. Ronaldo, Kaka, Ronaldinho in his day, Messi, etc etc. I don't deny the African nations have good players - just not World Class. But then England can only boast Rooney and Gerrard as World Class these days.

Though as you say, Adebayor would be World Class, but he's not going to be there this time.

Yeah sure, but I think that nowadays, most European and South American teams have to settle for one or two world class player by team (there are exceptions for the luckiest and best teams of course). As long as the rest of the team is mostly made up of guys playing in top european teams, you should have a chance of performing well in an international competition.

Algeria- I don't know much about them, can't see it happening really.

I don't know a lot of their players... Belhadj and Ziani failed in top french teams (Lyon and Marseille) and then went abroad, I don't know how they fare in Portsmouth and Wolfsburg. Meghni is an "ex-future Zidane" who never really lived up to the hype. He seems to have settled in Lazio now... Yahia played for my team (Nice) but never convinced and is now in Bochum. Mansouri is a regular in a good Lorient team...

No world class player, and no real regular in a good European team (Meghni maybe, but Lazio is not really a great team anymore), but they qualified against Senegal and Egypt, two solid african teams. I don't really know what to think of them, but I don't really believe that they'll be able to go very far in the competition (but I didn't really believed in Senegal in 2002 either).

[Padraig]

When Ser Renasko said World Class, I figured he meant World Class. Ronaldo, Kaka, Ronaldinho in his day, Messi, etc etc. I don't deny the African nations have good players - just not World Class.

How many World Class players are there? I'm guessing from what you are saying that, at best, teams will only have 1 or 2. And we can almost rule out Argentina because of the Maradona factor. And Portugal don't have enough strength in depth.

So what does that leave us with? You are saying that no player from the 5 African qualifiers is better than Rooney or Gerard?

I must be missing something.

[DJDonegal]

Rooney and Gerrard World Class, but not Drogba?

Drogba had already been named. He is undoubtedly world class.

Heh, quite so. It'll be interesting to see how many of those players the above posters quoted rise to the occasion.

As far as the England 'world class' players thing. Would you not call John Terry, Rio Ferdinand (not based on current form), Ashley Cole, Frank Lampard all 'world class'?

At one time or another, I would say they all were. I named Rooney and Gerrard as the two stand out players in the England side. For sure I'd no longer call Ferdinand world class. One mistake is acceptable, but he's making them frequently these days, and it's reminiscent of the end of Sol Campbell's tenure with Arsenal. Except Rio didn't ship two goals in one game and leave the stadium early...

The others are more debatable. Cole is good, but I don't think I can call him world class. Being one of the best left backs in the world doesn't necessarily mean you're world class. Terry and Lampard... meh. Their off days are becoming more frequent. Chelsea no longer have the staunch defence of yesteryear. I'll admit that with Lampard on form, Chelsea change from winning 1 or 2-0 to 4 or 5-0. He has that influence. But because he started the season in sluggish form, I need to wait and see whether that was the blip among a great season, or this current form is the highlight among a poor season. His world class pedigree depends on it. For me, anyway.

How many World Class players are there? I'm guessing from what you are saying that, at best, teams will only have 1 or 2. And we can almost rule out Argentina because of the Maradona factor. And Portugal don't have enough strength in depth.

So what does that leave us with? You are saying that no player from the 5 African qualifiers is better than Rooney or Gerard?

I must be missing something.

Yeah, reading back over my post it does look like I'm saying none of the African qualifiers have world class players. What I meant to say was that apart from the ones already mentioned by Renasko (Drogba and Essien) and myself (Eto'o) I can't think of any I would put under world class. Perhaps my idea of world class is a lot more restrictive than most. Can you think of any other players from the qualified African nations you would consider world class?

[Padraig]

Is ESPN merely lazy, and picked one African team as the "favorite/best"? I know it's always easier to just fall in love with a few of teams and drone on about the minutia of their various efforts.

Ivory Coast would be the right team to pick as the best of the African countries. At the same time, I wouldn't be surprised if Cameroon, Nigeria or Ghana make stonger showings. Its dangerous to rely on just one team. :)

I suppose one of them might make the semis if home team refereeing is extended to all of Africa, but even then I can't see them going further without a great deal of luck.

What I meant was that African would offer the biggest challengers to Europe and S America. As against N American or Asia. Not that I think Africa will actually win the WC. Although, I think they should do well (at least 1 or 2 of the countries).

Can you think of any other players from the qualified African nations you would consider world class?

Well, I don't mind what definition you use. Only that if you restrict to teams with a few such World Class players, you are probably left with only 2 countries. And there is no way you can reduce the contenders to 2.

[Horus Ex Machina]

And Yaya Toure has really evolved as a player the last season or so. He's a top class player. And Seydou Keita has been absolutely brilliant for Barca this year. Mali aren't at the WC, but he's still African. And Adebayor.

Ghana have some very good players: Essien, Muntari, Pantsil, Gyan, Mensah and Appiah? (I don't know if he's still playing for them, he has severe injury players.

Ivory Coast would be the other very good African team with Drogba, the Toures, Zokora, Dindane...all good on the international stage.

Either of them could make the quarters with a kind draw.

As for the others.....Cameroon have Eto'o, Kameni, Makoun, Emana, some good players, but are certainly not as good as the above 2. Still, second round isn't impossible, depending on the group.

Similar for Nigeria, though they lack one class player in the mould of Eto'o/Drogba/Essien, but Martins, Yakubu, Uche, Mikel are all good. Similar to Cameroon IMO.

Algeria- I don't know much about them, can't see it happening really.

SA- Hosts always have an advantage, and Pienaar has been fantastic every time I've seen him for them. He actually looks like a top class player most times. His touch is beautiful, his passing is fantastic and he can beat players. If he can keep that up at the WC, he'll cut open even the best defences. Don't know if they have a top class finisher though, they seem to waste an awful lot of chances.

Being of the hope that Africa makes the most of it's hosting of the tournament, I'm puttin most of my hopes with Cote d'Ivoire mainly bc their best players have been in the biggest matches on the Eurpean level. Moreso than the other African entrants, including Ghana. On top of that, no African player is playing on the level that Drogba is currently at, and if he can carry that form into the WC, it will be extremely likely that they can attain the semifinals here. I'll be watching the CAN and how they progress through that tournament. They really should have little trouble winning it with maybe a challenge from Ghana. Egypt's form is so off, I don't see them recovering from blowing the WC in time to make noise in this competition.

[Fireball07]

Lampard>Gerrard.

And if they are world class, so is Essien. He is unbelivably good.

World class is a word that can mean a lot. I misuse it a lot myself. In some ways, there are only a few world class players in the world, the really top players. But then you start thinking about it and other players who are almost as good seem to add themselves in and it adds up.

Like, is Cesar world class? Robben? Gourcuff?

Becuase certainly on their day, they can be at the level of the very very best.

[Horus Ex Machina]

I'm expecting next-to-nothing from the hosts and the other African nations competing in next summer's competition. There's very few world class African players that will be featuring. Michael Essien, Didier Drogba, and...who?

Hello?... Samuel Eto'o.

CIV has a better team than Korea did when they made their semi-final run. CIV has a pretty solid team not just Drogba, you also have Zakora, Kalou, Y. Toure, K. Toure, Eboue to name a few. All with CL experience. Those are all pretty damn fine players for top Euro clubs. Add on guys like Aruna Dindane and Gervinho. Underestimate them on African soil at your own risk.

You list Ivory Coast, Ghana and Nigeria. I have been watching for any WC news in the states, and it seems like whenever people talk about the African squads, Ivory Coast is listed as a cut above, with a legit shot at semis (perhaps further). Is this actually the case or is this a particularly strong year for the African teams? (I can't think of any other year where more than one African squad made a big splash, although my memory isn't great for this sort of thing).

Is ESPN merely lazy, and picked one African team as the "favorite/best"? I know it's always easier to just fall in love with a few of teams and drone on about the minutia of their various efforts.

You might have noted that this is the first time that the tournament will ever be hosted on the African continent. If you remember back in 2002 when the tournament went to Korea/Japan, both teams had their best performances at the WC ever. In the US '94 a marginal US team made the knockout stage. Believe me, the team that US runs out these days would run rings around that year's squad. No European team has ever won the world cup outside of Europe and Brazil is the only S. American team to have had any success outside of Latin America.

Playing on home continental soil means alot, perhaps moreso for we Africans as we tend to band together when it's "us against the world" in ways we normally would not otherwise.

But add in the fact that Cote d'Ivoire has a far superior team to the one that S. Korea made the semis with in 2002. Most of their starters play for top European Clubs, many have Champions' League experience, and those who don't are primed to move up. All in all, this generation of Ivorian players is arguably superior to the Nigeria teams of the '90s much better than the best of Cameroon's teams. Couple that with the first finals held on African soil (and believe me when I say that whichever of the sub-saharan contingent goes the farthest will be the darlings of the S. African fans) I see a very realistic semi-final run in CIV's future. Perhaps more with luck.

[DJDonegal]

Lampard>Gerrard.

And if they are world class, so is Essien. He is unbelivably good.

World class is a word that can mean a lot. I misuse it a lot myself. In some ways, there are only a few world class players in the world, the really top players. But then you start thinking about it and other players who are almost as good seem to add themselves in and it adds up.

Like, is Cesar world class? Robben? Gourcuff?

Becuase certainly on their day, they can be at the level of the very very best.

I said Essien was world class. I think Gerrard > Lampard. But I'm not going to try and get you to agree with me - I think it'll just be one of those things.

And "world class" is an extremely subjective term. For me, those players aren't world class. I don't know enough about Cesar to comment, but Robben and Gourcuff had the potential - they're just not consistent enough. Robben thanks to injuries, Gourcuff thanks to form. I guess it's your choice whether you consider them world class.

[Horus Ex Machina]

World Class is a term that I've heard ppl use in a way that would likely be refuted if they were forced to further defend their original point.

I remember one guy trying to make the point that you had to "win a world cup to be truly World Class". So I then followed up and asked him if he believed that C. Ronaldo, Lionel Messi, Fernando Torres, and Wayne Rooney were world class,... and he shut up shortly after that.

In the end everyone's definition seems to usually be wrong or refutable by their own beliefs of who world class players really are. Or maybe I've only spoken to ppl who haven't thought about it deeply enough.

[ljkeane]

But add in the fact that Cote d'Ivoire has a far superior team to the one that S. Korea made the semis with in 2002. Most of their starters play for top European Clubs, many have Champions' League experience, and those who don't are primed to move up.

South Korea had some other advantages in their preparation for that World Cup though and I think that was a weaker tournament in terms of the quality of the teams. To be honest if you look at the teams that are likely to make the quarterfinals I'd see the majority of them as favourites against the Ivory Coast, that's not to say they won't make the semis but I'd be surprised.

[Altherion]

If you remember back in 2002 when the tournament went to Korea/Japan, both teams had their best performances at the WC ever.

Yeah, I remember it very clearly... particularly the quarter-final between South Korea and Spain wherein Spain scored 2 goals (one debatable and one completely clean) neither of which was counted and then, during the penalties, the Korean keeper kept walking forward and this was ignored. This is why the pivotal question is whether all African teams will get the benefit of that kind of refereeing or only South Africa. I doubt the latter will be able to get far either way, but a team like Cote d'Ivoire is another matter -- they can probably reach the quarter-finals (with luck, maybe even the semis) on their own skill and African fan support, so with that much help, they can go very far indeed.

[Horus Ex Machina]

Yeah, I remember it very clearly... particularly the quarter-final between South Korea and Spain wherein Spain scored 2 goals (one debatable and one completely clean) neither of which was counted and then, during the penalties, the Korean keeper kept walking forward and this was ignored. This is why the pivotal question is whether all African teams will get the benefit of that kind of refereeing or only South Africa. I doubt the latter will be able to get far either way, but a team like Cote d'Ivoire is another matter -- they can probably reach the quarter-finals (with luck, maybe even the semis) on their own skill and African fan support, so with that much help, they can go very far indeed.

Not that I'm asking for beneficial officiating, but it's often a factor in WC competitions to date all the way back to the "Hand of God" and it probably won't be any different here. Remember Argentina was a Latin team playing in Mexico against a European Giant. These things happen.

Also, to clarify, as long as S. Africa is active in the tournament, then the degree that the other African teams benefit might be measured. But once S. Africa is eliminated, you will certainly see the "home team" moniker redirected to one of the other 4 Sub-Saharan entrants.