marriage

[Mack Kilimaro]

I, for one, am glad for my mom's influence on my name. On my mom's side of the family there wasn't really any kind of traditional names going down through the ages, so my dad's side was hoping to double up on this or something. The two names being seen the most are William and Robert. So, were it up to my dad, that would have been my first and middle name in that order.

However, my mom was quite adamant that she was not about to give birth to "Billy Bob" Brown, which would have certainly doomed me to a life of rustling up cattle on a farm in Texas, driving around with a Confederate flag license plate, and probably a bunch of those stickers of the kid taking a piss on the logo of rival truck companies sitting in the back window.

Maybe we need to establish some kind of "Name Nazis", who can be the neutral arbiters of which parent ought to be allowed to name the children, said parent being less likely than the other to inflict a travesty of a name upon some poor, innocent newborn.

[Dreadwolf]

With electronic technologies development the need for names for identification purposes shall faint. Once it completely die out people would have unrestricted right to pick up their own names (and change these frequently) at free will once matured (legally). /some small restrictions may be remaining). As a limited wish and one way or another it is possible nowadays too. The situation will more or less follow the internet communities with nicknames and the likes.

Seriously - names are only symbols. If problems start here - beter put all at end at this very point.

[Whitestripe]

Bathilda Bagshot!

Bellatrix Lestrange!

Petunia Dursley !

Helga Hufflepuff !

Rowena Ravenclaw.

On a side note, I wanted to name Delia "Bellatrix" but hubby said no. Oh well.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

Voldemort?

He was my brother. :uhoh:

[Merrett Frey's Sponsor]

Bathilda Bagshot!

Bellatrix Lestrange!

Petunia Dursley !

Helga Hufflepuff !

She is going to feel even better about taking my last name when it's put up against the competition.

[mormont]

Just come out and call me a four-year old and don't try to be sly with your ad homs, mormont.

Pfft. As if I am capable of being sly. I isn't that smrt. :P

I merely pointed out such common hypocrisy among those who tend to be offended by the societal presumption that a female will surrender her name.

Not really: you proposed that the coexistence of two particular beliefs would indicate hypocrisy. You then asserted that such coexistence was 'common', apparently based on nothing more than how convenient that would be for your argument.

But again, the whole issue is irrelevant to the thread anyway. So whatever.

[TerraPrime]

Re: Tempra

So, how common is this phenomenon of women who objects to taking their to-be husband's last name while at the same time expecting an engagement/wedding ring from them?

I can't think of feminists that I know of who fall into that category. And I think I know quite a few of them. Say, over 50 or 60 whose personal life I know enough to make some educated guesses on how they'd react to the question.

Re: HotforAsha

Sometimes I worry that we are afraid to admit we like certain traditions.

And sometimes, we keep up traditions that reflect an unsavory habit of the old days without realizing that our effort contributes to keeping those unsavory practices alive in different permutations.

I know for a fact it in no way changes how much I love and value my wife for the person she is.

My mother-in-law loves my husband. She loves all 3 of her children. It's genuine and it's clear. At the same time, she thinks gay people (that'd be her son and me) are abominations who will burn in hell.

Bigotry and love are not mutually exclusive. Indeed, many sexist men love their wives, their girlfriends, their mothers, and their sisters. I'm just not convinced that love negates the sexism, if/when it's present.

I like the naming tradition. I liked asking her father for his blessing even though that is outdated and probably pretty sexist to many. I liked buying the ring. I liked getting down on one knee. I like the fact that I now have a son and there are four living generations of men with the same last name, and I am no longer the last male name from that line.

I'm glad you got what you like, then. But let's not pretend that there's anything "probable" about asking her father's permission to marry her being anything but sexist. If your wife is happily condoning this practice, then you have nothing to worry about. Obviously, many women also find this tradition charming, for one reason or another. I'm glad you found someone who shares these values with you.

I consider myself open-minded and a good husband. I would never make a family decision without knowing exactly where my wife stands and taking that into account. I expect and find the same to be true from her perspective. We talk issues out and find that more often than not we agree, yet I have yielded on two specific family issues where we have disagreed.

From my perspective, I can't comment on how good a husband you are, but I'd quibble about the "open-minded" thing. It is, of course, a graduating scale of sorts, so I'll accept that perhaps compared to your father or your other relatives and peers, you are indeed open-minded enough that you would consider your wife to be equal partners in a marriage and will consider her opinions on matters that affect the whole family.

I do not feel I should have to apologize for wanting to follow societal tradition on the matter of names. I am proud of mine and thrilled that she was excited to take it as her own and to bestow it on her children.

I'm not sure that we're expecting apology, per se, so no worries there. As long as you understand that the whole naming thing and some of the other traditions you mentioned are sexist, then I'm okay with it. People embrace all sorts of things that I personally disapprove of every day, and it's really not my place to say anything to them directly. But what I don't like seeing is people explaining these things away and argue that they're not based on biased traditions. As long as you know that these practices are sexist, and you still embrace them, then I have no quarrel with you.

[Merrett Frey's Sponsor]

I'm not sure that we're expecting apology, per se, so no worries there. As long as you understand that the whole naming thing and some of the other traditions you mentioned are sexist, then I'm okay with it. People embrace all sorts of things that I personally disapprove of every day, and it's really not my place to say anything to them directly. But what I don't like seeing is people explaining these things away and argue that they're not based on biased traditions. As long as you know that these practices are sexist, and you still embrace them, then I have no quarrel with you.

I do not think we have a quarrel. I would, however, clarify that I believe practices that have sexist origins are not necessarily sexist in practice. I think it can depend on context. I tend to hold doors open for people. When I do so for a woman it is not because I believe she is too weak or feeble to do it without my help.

I should also clarify that if I were in romantic love and a long-term relationship with a man, I would not want to change my name for him. That might make me selfish, but not sexist.

[Kat]

For the record, you can count me in with the "radical feminists" who aren't into the whole engagement ring tradition. I can think of many more practical ways to spend that much money, especially with the economy the way it is and the price of real estate, etc.

In any case, I'm not even attached and I already have an engagement ring. It's my great-grandmother's anniversary ring, which my grandmother gave to me. So if I ever get engaged, I'll just wear that. :dunno:

If nothing else, this thread has got me very curious about Harry Potter and cow-themed names. :lol:

[Eelia]

Leaving the father's name out compeletely is at least as unfair as leaving the mother's name out completely.

I would say it the other way:

Leaving the mother's name out compeletely is at least as unfair as leaving the father's name out completely.

Many men don't understand that and EXPECT women and children to take their name. I don't like that and want to at least have (an equal) discussion. I would definitely keep my name, that is not even debatable; as for the children, we can hopefully agree on one of the other. But if for someone it's a dealbreaker if he can't pass on his name....then it's also a dealbreaker for me because I just don't understand this uncompromising mindset.

As for the tradition aspect, I'd like to keep my name and give it to my children exactly because of tradition; I come from a still very very patriarchal society where a lot of people really annoy me on a daily basis, so I would just like to annoy them back as much as possible :D.

Also, I don't live in my country anymore, so I would like my children to have some connection to my home, if not through last name, then through first. Though it's really not such a big deal...

ETA: And about the rings, I don't think many women feminists expect expensive rings. I don't expect one at all, as we don't have such tradition, plus I don't wear rings. But off course, there are sexist expectations of men . It's just not the topic here.

[Seventh Pup]

I do not think we have a quarrel. I would, however, clarify that I believe practices that have sexist origins are not necessarily sexist in practice. I think it can depend on context. I tend to hold doors open for people. When I do so for a woman it is not because I believe she is too weak or feeble to do it without my help.

Well asking for her father's blessing is just plan sexist. I would be really heavily offended if someone I married asked for my father's blessing, but did not seek out the rest of my family. I get the idea of marriage being about more then just the couple, the idea of marriage being a union of families and so asking a family if you can be part of it. But just asking my father, and assuming that his answer was final word for the rest of the family :thumbsdown: .

[AutumnEvenings]

This is an interesting topic for me right now, as I'm engaged. I have no strong attachment to my last name per se. It's not the name I was born with, since my father was a total asshole and my mom ditched his name upon divorce, but didn't feel like going back to her maiden name, so picked one out of a hat, more or less.

I'd kind of always thought I would go with either my grandmother's/great-aunt's maiden name, or my great-aunt's married name, as I love both of those last names, and I love my great-aunt who has welcomed us whole heartedly into her family.

But changing your name is a total pain, what with the social security card, passport, diver's liscence, etc. etc. I don't hate my fiance's last name, but I won't be taking it because it's not mine in any sense of the word.

He was adopted and doesn't particularly care about his last name either, and didn't/doesn't expect me to take it and isn't entire adverse to the thought of taking mine, but since I'm not enamoured with it, he'll probably keep his own.

The real question is the kids, which we badly want. I don't really care if the have my last name. His last name is prettier and shorter than mine, but it starts with an "L", so that rules out some of my favorite middle names (Lily, Laura) because I hate alliteration in names. He doesn't care one way or the other. We might go with mine, but like I said, I don't particularly like it. I have no *bad* feelings to it and I've come to identify with it, but it's long, and a different spelling of it is very common here in Utah, so everyone spells it wrong (even when I spell it out loud for them!) and also asks if I'm related to so-and-so, which, no.

I guess we could give them one of my great-aunt's names, but I dunno, I kind of like the notion of their last names matching (at least one of) ours. I really just don't know right now.

[tzanth]

I do not think we have a quarrel. I would, however, clarify that I believe practices that have sexist origins are not necessarily sexist in practice. I think it can depend on context. I tend to hold doors open for people. When I do so for a woman it is not because I believe she is too weak or feeble to do it without my help.

You may have the best of intentions, but the traditions you have mentioned in this thread are absolutly sexist in practice. Things like buying engagement rings, taking male surnames, and getting on a knee to propose, are powerful symbols in our culture which serve to perpetuate sexist gender concepts. By choosing to practice these traditions are you reinforcing traditionalist stereotypes weather you like it or not.

[Guest Raidne]

One thing we haven't discussed much is that I'm quite sure it's far easier for a married woman to change her name to her husband's last name than any other kind of name change would be. And I think we can probably all agree that should change. It should be just as easy for a man to take his wife's last name, or to hyphenate. All you have to do as a woman is march down to the social security office with your marriage certificate, whereas I would bet that a man would have to go to court, not to mention pay the fees for doing so.

To the earlier question about changing names, I generally thought of it as my Dad's name, I suppose, but my Dad is an all-around champion of a guy, so it's not like that's a drawback. If I could have had a name from my family, I would have changed my name to my grandmother's maiden name, which is a great name and reflects the nearly lost Irish heritage of our family. And I did think about doing that, but, to be perfectly honest and to subject my husband to all kinds of unasked for abuse, he really, really wanted me to take his name, and I liked it, so I did. Also, to be honest, they have *awesome* family gatherings and are generally a closer extended family unit than my family on either side, and I do feel more a part of their family having their name, which I do like.

Also, tzanth, I think you mean buying engagement rings, because I can't think of anything remotely sexist about wedding rings, which are purchased mutually by the couple, worn by both parties, and generally of similar expense.

[LCOTNW]

One thing we haven't discussed much is that I'm quite sure it's far easier for a married woman to change her name to her husband's last name than any other kind of name change would be. And I think we can probably all agree that should change. It should be just as easy for a man to take his wife's last name, or to hyphenate. All you have to do as a woman is march down to the social security office with your marriage certificate, whereas I would bet that a man would have to go to court, not to mention pay the fees for doing so.

Nope. When I got married about a decade ago, my wife and I trotted down to the Social Security office and processed our mutual name changes (See my post on p3. for the formula) together.

It was very romantic. :love:

[tzanth]

Also, tzanth, I think you mean buying engagement rings, because I can't think of anything remotely sexist about wedding rings, which are purchased mutually by the couple, worn by both parties, and generally of similar expense.

Ah, well, I find that one to be a bit bizarre too, but your absolutly right. Thanks for pointing it out :)

[The_BlauerDragon]

It's interesting that through all of this, we're just now getting around to the issue of first names. I guess I always assumed that I'd have no real say in the first name of my children. My Dad didn't have a say in my name (or my brother's), so that may be why I made the assumption. There are a few names that I like, and I'd probably suggest them, but I never actually fathomed the idea of having any sort of veto power or vote in that regard. Hmmm? Now that I think about it, that seems a little odd...

As for the asking the father thing. I don't get that, I never have. I'm marrying her, not her Dad. I mean, if she wants me to ask his permission, I will... but... It just feels creepy. I actually got the shivers just thinking about it. Reminded me of a girl I briefly dated in High School who insisted that I obtain her father's permission before we dated. When I asked her out, she said "Okay, but you have to ask my Dad if it's okay first." She insisted upon his input in just about everything. It ended rather quickly, because I started to feel like she was a proxy through which I was actually dating her father. Too bad too, she had some real potential on those rare occasions when she was thinking and acting for herself.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

Just one more example of differing traditions - I've been to a few weddings where, indeed, only the woman was given a ring. It was rather startling, to put it mildly, the first time they skipped the second "with this ring" part!

(More commonly, the ceremony itself contains an exchange of rings, but only the woman actually wears hers after the day. Sometimes, but not always, it's simply a reflection of the physical nature of the husband's job. Very rarely indeed, neither party wears rings.)

[Dinsdale!]

People should do what the hell they want. My friend took his wife's name, because he hated his own last name. However, one shouldn't let ones family know about it through the wedding program. Which is what he did. :bang:

I like my last name. Most of my college friends call me by my first name + last name, so it would be deeply weird for me to change it. My mom did not change her name. I don't see any reason why I wouldn't do the same with some hypothetical future wife.

Kids are the real problem. I feel slightly obligated to give them my last name, as long as my paternal grandfather is still alive. Probably when it came down to it, I'd insist on the name that sounds cooler. I dated a girl who's last name was Rorschach, a great-niece of he of ink-blot fame. That'd be a cool last name to give a kid :)

[Seventh Pup]

For myself I would take my husband’s name or make a name together. When my parents got divorced my mom changed her name back to her maiden name, and my sister still legally had the last name of my mother's first husband. So I grew up in a house where my mom, my sister, and myself all had different last names. My parents have since remarried, which has introduced two new last names to the bunch. I remember really liking the idea of starting a family, and have everyone having the same last name; having a whole not divided family. I still like the idea of making my own last name with my hypothetical future husband. However my current guy is in a profession where his name matters in tracking his work; if he was the one I think I would just take his last name. :)