marriage

[Mentat]

In Spain spouses don't change names. People have two lastnames and middlenames are much less frequent.

So a normal Spaniard's name would look something like this:

Firstname Father'sfirstlastname Mother'sfirstlastname

Your firstlastname is what gets passed on to your children, though, so in true patriarchal tradition the mother's firstlastname will pass on to her children, but not on to her grandchildren.

So the feminist reivindication is to reverse the order of the children's lastnames so that it goes from patriarchal to matriarchal. It's not an issue I really care strongly about.

As a completely anecdotal story my secondlastname (that is to say, my Mother'sfirstlastname) is hyphenated, comprising a Femaleanscestor'sfirstlastname-Maleancestor'sfirstlastname. My male ancestor's brother begot a bastard and decided to allow him to use his last name. My ancestor was appalled and, refusing to share a last name with a bastard child, hyphenated his own, combining it with his wife's.

Men- if you want to name something, you shove it out one of your orifices.

That's really mean and nasty. I think in RL I'd probably run away from you. In a happy family a man would expect to have a say in his child's naming/upbringing/whatever without having to shove it out of any of his orifices, which would probably involve it having to be shoved into it first, which... just gross and ewww.

[Frosty]

Possible reasons for same last names is to not look like you just "live together" in small towns this is still frowned upon. Sorry for the facts.

And the radical feminism around here gets as old as the "cave man mentality". Sorry for the facts.

[Isis]

Can any men who want to pass their name on to their offspring please answer my question from page two of this thread?

I wouldn't mind the slightest smidgen if my wife were to keep her maiden name (as my mother kept hers), but would fiercely defend my patriarchal right to pass the family name on to my offspring.

This is interesting. I have a question for you: what if you had siblings who had already passed your family name on to their kids, would you be okay with YOUR kids then having your wife's name?

[Erlend]

This is interesting. I have a question for you: what if you had siblings who had already passed your family name on to their kids, would you be okay with YOUR kids then having your wife's name?

If I got into a discussion like that, I would argue that the least common name should be passed on, and that siblings who have passed on the name are irrelevant. But I have to admit that I have a pretty rare family name, and that my brother has kids with that name.

[Chaldanya]

Possible reasons for same last names is to not look like you just "live together" in small towns this is still frowned upon. Sorry for the facts.

And the radical feminism around here gets as old as the "cave man mentality". Sorry for the facts.

If only they were facts.

You know that the reason women take men's names in the institution of marriage is everything to do with how it was set up in the western culture, right? The daughter was the property of her father and on marriage becomes the property of her husband thus takes his name. To add to this it was also about controlling women's sexuality (hence why 'living together' is frowned upon in some small towns). The reasons why women change or don't change their name should be personal to them but this western culture (altho' improving) still expects women to take their husband's name (witness the option on most marriage certificates for automatic changing for the woman but not the man) - furthermore, see my link two pages ago.

BTW, Frosty: This is nothing like radical feminism. This is simply saying that women's names are just as important as men's and women should not be expected to just drop them. Additionally, feminism is all about equality the 'cave man mentality' is all about keeping things as is. Personally I don't think feminism is getting old at all.

N

[Silverstar]

Slightly comedic anecdote.

When my lil sister got engaged, she was trying to figure out what name to use. She'd always hated our surname because it's 'cow-related', and had been dying to get rid of it, only she then went and got engaged to a guy with a different 'cow-related' surname.

She briefly considered hyphenating them, but then realised that it would make her sound like a stud farm.

Eventually, she went with his, I think partly at least because it's marginally less cow-related than ours is.

Names are funny things, aren't they?

[Isis]

If I got into a discussion like that, I would argue that the least common name should be passed on, and that siblings who have passed on the name are irrelevant. But I have to admit that I have a pretty rare family name, and that my brother has kids with that name.

I don't see how it is irrelevant if the argument is that the male in question wants to see his family name passed on and it HAS already been passed on. Surely his goal has been achieved? :unsure:

Unless of course he was just pretending that it was all about the importance of passing on the family name when really it was just because he couldn't accept his kids having any name other than his...

[ljkeane]

If I were to have kids I'd like them to have my surname in some form (perhaps in combination with my partners surname), not because of any need to pass on my family name but just because I'd like my hypothetical children to share the same name as me. I don't really see the issue with that, although if everyone starts combining surnames I suppose it could get out of control fairly quickly. :dunno:

[Erlend]

Isis,

I know a couple of cases where there has been a discussion about what should be the last (and therefore most “important”) family name for the children, and the parents decided on the least common name. But it has to be said that in both cases this was in favour of the father’s name.

To me this sounds like the best objective criteria for choosing, since rare equals good :P. But maybe relatives who pass on the name should count for more than unrelated people who do the same?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Isis,

I don't see how it is irrelevant if the argument is that the male in question wants to see his family name passed on and it HAS already been passed on. Surely his goal has been achieved? :unsure:

Unless of course he was just pretending that it was all about the importance of passing on the family name when really it was just because he couldn't accept his kids having any name other than his...

That's why I suggested the Iberian pratice of a combination of mother and father's last name was more equitable. Leaving the father's name out compeletely is at least as unfair as leaving the mother's name out completely.

[Isis]

Leaving the father's name out completely is at least as unfair as leaving the mother's name out completely.

Agreed.

[A wilding]

I don't see how it is irrelevant if the argument is that the male in question wants to see his family name passed on and it HAS already been passed on. Surely his goal has been achieved? :unsure:

Unless of course he was just pretending that it was all about the importance of passing on the family name when really it was just because he couldn't accept his kids having any name other than his...

Patriarchy has nothing to do with it for me (and I suspect for most males). It is all down to wanting to "mark" (though that is not the word for it that I would have chosen) the child as your own.

I would turn the "who squeezed it out?" argument on its head. The mother's connection with her children is strong and undeniable. The father's is much more nebulous. In a society in which the father is expected to put in something like half the cost and effort of bringing up the children, it does not seem unreasonable to me for him to want some sort of formal recognition of his connection to them.

Disclaimer: we have no children. Mrs W took my name (she was young enough when we married that the issue of publications was not important), but it was her choice and not something I felt strongly about.

[Chaldanya]

Patriarchy has nothing to do with it for me (and I suspect for most males).

Nope. Not true. It may not consciously have anything to do with your* decision, but believe me we are all a product of this patriarchal society.

N

*used in its general meaning.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Everyone,

Regarding the tradition of naming children after their father. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the mother normally the person who assigns names on Birth Certificates in the U.S.? Thus, in most circumstances, if a mother chooses to bestow her maiden name, or a hyphenated name, upon the child there's not much the purported father can do about it.

[needle]

God, there's a lot of angry answers in this thread. Friends of ours recently spent most of their honeymoon having a huge argument because he wasn't prepared to take her name.. I see her point, as I see Nat's and Min's and Kay's and many others, but personally I can't get that worked up about it. Raidne's point of it just being a matter of one man's name or another is something that had occured to me of late.

Not hundred perecent sure what I'll do, but I think I'll tack Zak's surname on the end of my name, but not do much about it offically for a while - professionally, I'll just use my name as always. When you're an emerging artist, it's a kind of bad idea to jump about changing your surname.

As for kids, they'll take Zak's name. Not for any real reason other than he has a sister whose kids go by their father's name, and I have two brothers whose kids carrry my name. So it evens up the score to have more little Reids in the world. We'll probably use family names from my family as middle names though - my mother's maiden name, and my paternal great grandmother's maiden name ( both family traditional names that we happen to like, where as I don't much like my surname, so I don't feel the need to give it to my kids).

[Vestrit]

but I think I'll tack Zak's surname on the end of my name

Everyone in Edinburgh will just start asking you for a hair appointment...

My fiance is going to take my surname, but that was completely her choice.

I'm equally happy with her keeping her name or taking mine, so it comes down to whichever she feels comfortable with and she feels quite strongly about taking my name.

I wouldn't take her name, not because I'm an old sexist or anything, but because my name is my name, it's not a very common one and it would hurt my family if I changed because I think they'd see it as a rejection of them rather than anything else.

Regarding children, again my partner is clear that they'll have my name. Personally, I'm pleased as both my uncles (Dad's brothers) had daughters, so all my cousins are having children with different surnames. So I'm quite keen to keep the name alive for at least another generation.

Also, having been raised by a single mum, I've seen her have stupid admin hassles because she had a different surname to me and my brother, despite children and mothers with different surnames hardly being rare in NZ. I'd imagine it would be even more hassle for a man whose children have a different surname to him.

[Hereward]

You're getting married?* Congratulations, Si! :cheers:

*If I already knew this and have already congratulated you, bear in mind I'm getting very old and I didn't get any sleep last night. :wideeyed:

[Vestrit]

You're getting married?* Congratulations, Si! :cheers:

*If I already knew this and have already congratulated you, bear in mind I'm getting very old and I didn't get any sleep last night. :wideeyed:

Cheers mate! :cheers:

No, you probably didn't know this, as I don't think I've mentioned it before actually. Yep, getting married next year, in the autumn

[Xray the Enforcer]

:love:

That's awesome news, Vestrit!

[MinDonner]

Congrats Vestrit! :)