Lost Season 6 v.2

[CloudFlare]

Just to note also that Ben was probably not the one who decided to gas Dharmaville; Widmore was in charge at that point. Hopefully we'll find out more about the Purge this season, and whether Jacob or the MiB was responsible.

If MiB was responsible, why did Jacob not punish Ben? Jacob may have been the one to kick Widmore off the Island, but Ben apparently got promoted to leader despite his role. It doesn't make sense.

And Ben seemed to view killing people as something that would affect his relationship with Jacob, given the whole deal with the man from Tallahassee.

Edit: Another problem with Ben/Jacob/Smokey. Ben lets Smokey loose to kill the mercenaries after they kill Alex. It seems odd that Jacob would permit that to happen, and that Smokey would do Ben's bidding.

[Dinsdale!]

I liked Jin's slow realization that Claire was craaaaaaaaazy. You can see him rationalize away the crib with the fake baby in it, but as the episode progresses he cannot avoid the obvious conclusion.

[Trebla]

Another thought on MiB/Smokey's badness or evilness. Did he assume the form of Dave, Hurley's imaginary friend back in season 2? Dave told Hurley everything on the island was not real, Hurley was really in a catatonic state, and the only was to snap out was to jump off a cliff. Hurley was saved by Libby at the last minute.

While MiB has done some bad things to some bad people (the pilot in the pilot we don't know enough about) Hurley seems pretty innocent.

[Imagica]

I was also starting to wonder whether the Claire/Danielle parallels were a desperate grafting of Danielle's story onto Claire in order to see the rest of Danielle's story pan out too.

I remember reading spoilers that indicated that's really the case, as Mira Furlan didn't want to return on the show. Still, this turn of Claire's character is pretty awesome and much better than her usual whining self.

So who is this Wallace that they were supposed to see when they turned the dial to 108?

I have a nagging suspicion he's just a red herring, but it would be a shame, really.

That scene made total sense to me. I don't get why people would be pissed off about it.

Well, personally, I was really looking forward to seeing the images in the mirror and when Jack smashed it... well, that was very unsatisying :) Plus, I'm not emphasizing with him or even care about him at all, so all his emotional decisions of late (swallowing the pill, smashing the mirror) feel pretty dumb.

[Kalbear]

That scene made total sense to me. I don't get why people would be pissed off about it.

Okay, you're presented with this mystical scrying tool that allows you to see places around the world. You could use it to see what other people's 'views' are. You could use it to possibly communicate with the rest of the world. You might even be, ya know, curious about such a thing. And a friend of yours is asking for your help to get someone to come to the island too - and presumably this would be beneficial to your goals.

But Jack, monkey that he is, decides that because Jacob won't show up now now now and tell him what a special wubby he is that he must destroy this mirror to show...what? His dissatisfaction on being spied on to Hurley? To show that he's in control, vaguely?

It was the reaction of an overemotional uncurious motherfucker. It's entirely in character for Jack; I understand why he did it. That just makes me like Jack as a character even less, because this is exactly the sort of douchebaggery I've come to expect from him.

[Ran]

That was Jack's, "I'M MAD AS HELL AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE!" moment. That island has been bending him over and mindfucking him for the last whatever number of years, of course he's going to reach a snapping point and beat the shit out of the latest looney crap it and the manipulative mofos who live on it directed towards him.

Jacob and Hurley fuck with his head, he fucks with Jacob's mirrors. Doesn't even remotely balance the scales in terms of how much shit he's been put through, but it was obviously much-needed catharsis.

ETA: "And a friend of yours is asking for your help to get someone to come to the island too - and presumably this would be beneficial to your goals."

Why would anyone presume this? The last people who came to the island were a bunch of mercenaries who shot up the place and tried to kill everyone. And why would you assume that your friend isn't being manipulated by some sick thing on the island, and he really has no idea what he's doing or asking you to do?

Because that's the case. Hurley knows nothing. He's credulous, and that's about it. Is that really a recommendation?

[denstorebog]

Man, I can't believe you guys even bother to discuss characters' motivations on this show. The characters do exactly what the plot requires them to do or not do in order for the viewer to know or not know different things. It's been like that since day one. If the mirror had been important for the viewer to see something through, Jack would have been in a contemplative mood that day.

[Kalbear]

Jacob and Hurley fuck with his head, he fucks with Jacob's mirrors. Doesn't even remotely balance the scales in terms of how much shit he's been put through, but it was obviously much-needed catharsis.

See, I took it as his anger that the island didn't mystically solve his problems. He doesn't care about the shit that he's been through; he cares that the island owes him something and isn't paying up. His bomb was supposed to solve everything, and it doesn't...and now he finds out that he's been watched by someone this whole time? Fuck them for not fixing him!

It made perfect sense. I just think that it was a pretty lame moment, similar to how I see a lot of Sawyer's completely shitty moments or a lot of Kate's completely shitty moments.

Because that's the case. Hurley knows nothing. He's credulous, and that's about it. Is that really a recommendation?

Given that Jacob's doing it (or Hurley's saying that, and has been right about it), and given that it's Hurley - yes, it should be enough for Jack. It really should.

But of course it's not, because he won't take this kind of stuff without an explanation. Again, makes total sense given his character. But it's also a 'thanks for listening to others, dude' kind of thing, and it's the selfish narcissism that I've come to expect.

[Ran]

denstorebog,

The characters do exactly what the plot requires them to do or not do in order for the viewer to know or not know different things.

This is the case with all fiction, isn't it?

If the mirror had been important for the viewer to see something through, Jack would have been in a contemplative mood that day.

Well, in a sense, true. That's kind of meta, though. Within the narrative, the mirror may well have been extremely important, whatever Jacob says. But why should what matters to Jacob matter to Jack? Dude has done nothing but screw with him, after all.

Kal,

See, I took it as his anger that the island didn't mystically solve his problems. He doesn't care about the shit that he's been through; he cares that the island owes him something and isn't paying up. His bomb was supposed to solve everything, and it doesn't...and now he finds out that he's been watched by someone this whole time? Fuck them for not fixing him!

I think his thing about being broken has a lot to do with his obsession with going back to the island, and being made to believe his purpose, his answers, and his fulfillment, lay there. It hasn't even come close to materializing. And so he throws himself into a terrible situation again, thinking that there has to be some meaning ... and then they just keep yanking his chain, rubbing it in that he will never get what he wants there. It's like a sick joke, one that you're supposed to keep falling for endlessly.

I don't think he wanted a magical fix. He wanted answers, mostly, that would help him to resolve whatever doubts or emptiness he harbors, and he's gone through hell to get them. -- and bupkiss. Jacob yanks his chain one more time.

[denstorebog]

This is the case with all fiction, isn't it?

Not at all. It's what we've come to expect from stuff like modern genre literature and its TV counterparts, but fiction has taken other forms that were almost plot-less and more like character studies.

[Scion of Valyria]

Man, I can't believe you guys even bother to discuss characters' motivations on this show. The characters do exactly what the plot requires them to do or not do in order for the viewer to know or not know different things. It's been like that since day one. If the mirror had been important for the viewer to see something through, Jack would have been in a contemplative mood that day.

You can look at any narrative that way, regardless of medium.

ETA: Beat to it by a few minutes.

[Ran]

denstorebog,

and more like character studies.

You know, there's not really any work of fiction without a plot. They all have purpose and a narrative drive, when looked at from outside. Consciously "plotless" novels tend to be the most deliberately plotted, from what I can tell.

But ... that's a digression. ;)

[Kalbear]

I think it's more of degrees; Lost has often had characters flop around on prior characterization because it suited the plot and not the character at hand. Charlie, Sawyer, Jin, Locke (gods, Locke), Kate and Juliet all suffered heavily from this from time to time. Jack not quite as much, because he's been pretty spot on on how douchetastic he is.

But even then - why would he believe that all of a sudden the island holds the key? Why start believing now? And for Locke - a guy he tried to kill? Odd.

BSG did this too from time to time - just made a character into a plot puppet. The good writers know how to write their plot that facilitates character decisions they want. The bad ones write the characters to fit the plot they wrote regardless.

[Samalander]

But even then - why would he believe that all of a sudden the island holds the key? Why start believing now? And for Locke - a guy he tried to kill? Odd.

You keep forgetting he left the island and tried for a normal life.

But then, of course, he started seeing his dead father all over the place (which we know is not Smokey, as Smokey can't leave the island, and Claire does distinctly talk about them as two different beings - and she knows Flocke isn't Locke, so she wouldn't have been fooled if he appeared as her father, presumably), and suffered a serious meltdown - The island fucking with his head, making him need to come back. He definately didn't do it for Locke. His appearance was just a catalyst for the idea of return as a fix-all to his problems.

[Ran]

Yep. The island/Jacob/whatever keeps messing with him. That's why he's back on the island, and that's why he has good reason to be mad as hell when his chain gets yanked one time too many.

[Kalbear]

Ah, you're right - I had forgotten; I tend to black out any episodes that are Jack-centric so they don't stay in my brain too long.

[Caligula_K]

I think it's more of degrees; Lost has often had characters flop around on prior characterization because it suited the plot and not the character at hand. Charlie, Sawyer, Jin, Locke (gods, Locke), Kate and Juliet all suffered heavily from this from time to time. Jack not quite as much, because he's been pretty spot on on how douchetastic he is.

I don't think it's as bad as all that. Certain characters (LOCKE LOCKE LOCKE in the second season, Kate, and Juliet sometimes) were definitely written schizophrenically at points. But other characters have had extremely consistent character arcs, especially Jin and Sawyer. Sure, there's the odd episode in the early seasons where Sawyer is a bit too nice or doesn't act 100% naturally, but this happens in every show, not just Lost and BSG- it's the side effect of having 10-15 different writers working on a show. Hell, there was a time in Deadwood when Al essentially became Dr. Phil for four or five episodes. Re-watching Lost last summer, though, Sawyer's arc from asshole to leader was actually handled pretty fluidly. The important thing is that the characters act in character for important episodes (which, admittedly, the writers failed to make them do in The Incident). Overall, though, I do think characterization has been one of the greatest strengths of this show.

Though it does seem at times that they don't know what to do with some of their characters, for example, Sun. Can you please give her something to do besides ask other characters where Jin is and follow random characters around, writers? She's an awesome character, and Yunjim Kim is your best female actress when you give her good material, yet since mid-season 5 Ilana has had more lines than her. Blah.

[Ran]

I actually think most all the characters have been pretty consistent in their behavior and actions as it relates to the plot. I mean, no one's seriously arguing that Jack smashing up that mirror wasn't pretty perfectly in character given the situation they developed (except maybe den).

The character that's most clearly a walking plot device is Kate. There's often very tenuous reasons for why she's part of a story, and the writers often just shoehorn her in in terribly obvious ways. She is definitely a third wheel in the big wrap up, one the writers can't seem to bring themselves to be rid of.

[Isis]

Okay, you're presented with this mystical scrying tool that allows you to see places around the world. You could use it to see what other people's 'views' are. You could use it to possibly communicate with the rest of the world. You might even be, ya know, curious about such a thing. And a friend of yours is asking for your help to get someone to come to the island too - and presumably this would be beneficial to your goals.

Well, maybe I might feel this way if I lived in a completely normal world where nothing at all had ever happened that could not be rationally explained. But if I was stuck on this magical island and had travelled through time on multiple occasions and seen all kinds of crazy shit happen then I'd probably think it wasn't that much of a big deal and that things would work out alright in the end somehow.

[Demonblade]

ONOZ!! Jack destroys the mirrors of a lighthouse we've never heard of before and had no bearing on the overall story-arc! What an utter douche! Tune in next week where Jack breathes in and out and proves once again that he's a douche!

It doesn't matter what the guy does, he'll still be seen as being a 'douche' by the haters.