Apartheid in Arizona

[BLU-RAY]

Insert joke here about balls and sticks that I'm just too tired to properly formulate now.

[CloudFlare]

How are they going to verify said person's immigration status?

By contacting ICE, as it says in the snippet of the actual law that I posted.

[Shryke]

By contacting ICE, as it says in the snippet of the actual law that I posted.

And how long is this gonna take and how is the accused gonna prove they are who they say they are?

[lokisnow]

If I were a cop and I ask for a birth certificate and someone actually had a birth certificate on them that would make me suspicious they were hiding something. Who keeps a birth certificate on them? Sounds like cause to arrest them and investigate further. Of course if they don't have what I ask for--a birth certificate--that also sounds like cause to arrest them and investigate further!

Golly, I haven't had this much fun since the early sixties. Carte blanche to arrest anyone for any reason, no getting out of being arrested. :)

And maybe this law will help put a stop to eyeballing. Kids today got a serious eyeballing problem, getting downright epidemic and we need to deter it by any means necessary.

**

also, anyone know what happens when cops do the "right thing" and ignore or discard any evidence on the behalf of the person they think is illegal? We all know it will happen--often. The legal immigrant shows his papers but the cop thinks he's got a bad attitude so he cracks to his partner about this wetback giving him toilet paper and either tears up the papers or throws them away. If its a sheriff Joe hired officer, it's likely the officer will pocket the papers and then feed the papers slowly to the guy later, when he's handcuffed or tied to a chair. Once the arrested has eaten all his papers, why, then there's no evidence he is legal, or at least he wasn't in possession of any evidence. hardeeharhar.

ETA, the best way to repeal this is through Football and Baseball. All efforts should be directed towards athletes of color (and different national origin) as well as the organizations themselves. They have far more authority and influence with the government than voters do.

[CloudFlare]

And how long is this gonna take and how is the accused gonna prove they are who they say they are?

As I've mentioned upthread, it will take too long for the average cop, even in ICE is being cooperative.

In discussing this issue, I am assuming most of these incidents would take place during traffic stops. The stopped person, if operating a motor vehicle, should have some sort of ID.

For non motor vehicles, they can produce ID or tell the cops what their name is. I believe under current law if you refuse to provide ID the cops have the option to take you to jail and run your prints, citizen or not.

ETA: I'm going to guess that cops will look at driver's licences more than any other. It's what they're familiar with, and they can easily check a DL with a database search. You hand a cop a birth certificate and he'll hand it right back. There is no consistency to them, they can probably be trivially faked compared to a DL and there is no way to check them on the fly.

[CloudFlare]

It's not "What happens to the illegal immigrants?" that has most people up in arms, it's "What happens to the American Citizens who will end up being stopped for looking Brown?".

Not to be flippant here, but they'll live. It won't be impossible, or even difficult for a BSAC* to find some documentation of citizenship. Drivers license, state ID, naturalization papers etc.

Will it be aggravating? Yes.

Will it be annoying? Yes.

It won't be unbearable though. I, an American citizen, and about as non-brown skinned as can be, got snagged in Arizona's E-Verify law. My SSN on file didn't match with what my card said. To get a job I had to make two trips to the SSA and sit around for about 4 hours total for a clerk to spend 5 minutes updating my record. Aggravating and annoying, but part of the crap you have to deal with in modern society.

ETA: IIRC I had to have my BC faxed to me as well, or maybe copied and Fedex'd. My employer was only going to hold the job open for 8 days, and I think it was close getting it submitted.

*Brown Skinned American Citizen

[IheartTesla]

Driver's license and state ID dont have citizenship on them. Edit: Or do they? My state ID doesnt have it, and the date it is supposedly valid till depends on how long you can legally be in this country at the time you got your ID issued.

[C S]

Not to be flippant here, but they'll live. It won't be impossible, or even difficult for a BSAC* to find some documentation of citizenship. Drivers license, state ID, naturalization papers etc.

Will it be aggravating? Yes.

Will it be annoying? Yes.

It won't be unbearable though. I, an American citizen, and about as non-brown skinned as can be, got snagged in Arizona's E-Verify law. My SSN on file didn't match with what my card said. To get a job I had to make two trips to the SSA and sit around for about 4 hours total for a clerk to spend 5 minutes updating my record. Aggravating and annoying, but part of the crap you have to deal with in modern society.

ETA: IIRC I had to have my BC faxed to me as well, or maybe copied and Fedex'd. My employer was only going to hold the job open for 8 days, and I think it was close getting it submitted.

*Brown Skinned American Citizen

Yes, but most people don't change jobs very often. Can you imagine having to live in constant fear of having to go through the process you went through every time you leave you house.

[CloudFlare]

Yes, but most people don't change jobs very often. Can you imagine having to live in constant fear of having to go through the process you went through every time you leave you house.

//Shrug

If they're illegal, then fear(or apprehension) of the law is normal and to be expected.

If they're legal, then I strongly suspect they have nothing to worry about. Street cops in Arizona don't like the scum segment of immigration(kidnappers, drug dealers, coyotes, drunk drivers) but generally don't care about normal, otherwise law abiding illegals. They're generally too busy to hassle people keeping their nose clean, at least from what I've seen in ride a longs.

OT, but I've had more jobs(8) and job interviews(probably around 15-20) than I've had encounters with the law(2-3?) in the past ten years.

ETA: Hmm, I'd better plan on having to provide documentation during my next round of job hunting, just in case my SSN isn't totally fixed.

[kairparavel]

How many of you have gotten/renewed a driver's license in your state, in the past five years?

In Virginia, you need to prove residence AND legal presence. I accomplished that with a lease and my I-94 and passport. My license was valid until the date on my I-94. Ergo, I have proved my legal presence to get my license and therefore, my license should be enough, no? I moved to Maryland, and exchanged my out of state license, but I still had to prove legal presence and residence. However, the license actually expired two years after my I-94/H1-B. But still, have license = legal presence, should be enough, no?

I realize none of that has anything to do with Arizona, but if you have an AZ license, haven't you gone through some sort of formal process to show your legal presence, citizen or not? If not, why not? I thought this was all part of the crackdown on giving illegal immigrants driver's licenses.

And, Canadians are allowed in the US for up to 6 months, WITHOUT an I-94. So how, on the spot, can they prove legal presence as a snow bird, with their Canadian passport and Canadian driver's licenses? I know many are in AZ for the winter, as much as they are in FL.

[CloudFlare]

I realize none of that has anything to do with Arizona, but if you have an AZ license, haven't you gone through some sort of formal process to show your legal presence, citizen or not? If not, why not? I thought this was all part of the crackdown on giving illegal immigrants driver's licenses.

I think with AZ DLs issued in the last few years you have to show a BC, but I could be wrong. This is why fighting DLs for illegals was so important, because it gave them a legal credential that only made their status more of a grey area.

Oh yeah, AZ DLs are good for 40 years as well. :stunned:

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

How many of you have gotten/renewed a driver's license in your state, in the past five years?

D'Oh! KingDread beat me to it. My AZ drivers license doesn't expire until 2047.

[carpface]

Anyways, regarding the bill, AZ joins South Carolina, Virginia, and others as the most embarrassing states in the Union.

Don't forget my home state of Kansas, (evolution doesn't exist according to the law here), unfortunately my sister backs this, I on the other hand think it's stupid.

[kairparavel]

D'Oh! KingDread beat me to it. My AZ drivers license doesn't expire until 2047.

That is just so awesomely f*@%*ed up *L*

Plate and license renewal every five years or whatever is such a glorious way to generate revenue.

Oh my.

But anyways, for a citizen that's just perfectly fine.

But for us ferriners, if there were to be an expiration that was tied to legal presence, that'd be half the battle right there.

Well, in theory at least.

[LCOTNW]

D'Oh! KingDread beat me to it. My AZ drivers license doesn't expire until 2047.

I cried bitter tears when I had to give mine up for having moved out of state.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

Plate and license renewal every five years or whatever is such a glorious way to generate revenue.

We have to renew the tags on our car every year (although you can pay a year in advance). It's pretty expensive too, about 150.00/year for a new car.

[Shryke]

As I've mentioned upthread, it will take too long for the average cop, even in ICE is being cooperative.

In discussing this issue, I am assuming most of these incidents would take place during traffic stops. The stopped person, if operating a motor vehicle, should have some sort of ID.

For non motor vehicles, they can produce ID or tell the cops what their name is. I believe under current law if you refuse to provide ID the cops have the option to take you to jail and run your prints, citizen or not.

ETA: I'm going to guess that cops will look at driver's licences more than any other. It's what they're familiar with, and they can easily check a DL with a database search. You hand a cop a birth certificate and he'll hand it right back. There is no consistency to them, they can probably be trivially faked compared to a DL and there is no way to check them on the fly.

Lot of problems here:

1) Driver's License doesn't mean you are a citizen. Hell, afaik 2 states that border Arizona (Utah and New Mexico) and 8 other non-bordering states give out licenses to illegal immigrants. So you are gonna need more ID then that.

2) This law not only allows, but compels police to check the ID of not just the driver, but everyone in the car. Shit, the law compels them to check the ID of pretty much everyone they come into contact with.

3) They have to stop everyone. "No, cause we all know most of the illegals are Mexicans and other Brown Folk!". Nope, sorry, law says you can't racially profile. So either the cops stop everyone, regardless of race, or they are violating the law and the rights of alot of US citizens. (I read that Legally Immigrated Latinos outnumber illegals in Arizona like 4:1)

So now we've got cops stopping every person they talk to, asking for ID nobody actually carries on them and wasting shitloads of times doing this that could be better spent fighting worse crimes that are actually within their jurisdiction. And god help you if you don't have that ID on you, cause now you can be detained for that.

And they are already pulling people over and demanding Birth Certificates from them for daring to Drive While Hispanic: http://www.azfamily.com/news/91769419.html

This will only make it worse.

[Lord O' Bones]

Pay a visit to the ASU campus in the fall. Charlize who?

This is the goddamned truth.

[ztemhead]

I'm going to give this law 1.5 years. When the MLB pulls the all-star game out of Phoenix in 2011 you'll see a bunch of very powerful business men getting hit in the pocketbook and making some phone calls. If you think that won't happen, lets look at the starting roster for last year's National League team:

Yadier Molina (Puero Rico)

Albert Pujols (Dominican Republic)

Chase Utley

David Wright

Hanley Ramirez (Dominican Republic)

Carlos Beltran (Puerto Rico)

Ryan Braun

Raul Ibanez (Cuba)

There's 2 citizens ripe for harassment and 3 resident aliens. I wouldn't be surpised to see some of them staying home next year.

This. These events are HUGE business for the state. All the downtown hotels will be booked solid, as well as the Scottsdale resorts. Also there's the publicity factor, and the possibility of a cascade of cancellations happening one after the other. I'm not saying formal boycott, just more of a herd mentality, one after the other.

:lol:

Really.

Because, as we all know, NBA (and other professional athletes) are great leaders on civil rights issues and political land mines.

Am-I-right?

Honestly, if the Latino/Hispanic residents of AZ and their allies cannot get the law to change, I doubt very much that a few NBA divas throwing a fit will.

Not this.

[horangi]

I know it will have the more libertarian minded posters up in arms (sorry Tormund,) but why not simply go the route of the national ID and mandatory compliance with ID request checks for all individuals in the country- citizen and alien? Before people call up the usual remarks about the Stasi breaking down doors, remember that several major democracies (I'm not talking about the in-name-only kind) have had those kinds of laws in place for many decades without turning into totalitarian states. When I was living in the Republic of Korea, I was really impressed with the efficiency that having the ID brings. You can go to virtually any subway station or district office and find an automated machine that can print out any kind of legal document you might need- birth certificate, family register, etc. All you have to do is insert your national ID and use the fingerprint scanner to match whats on file and you are good to go. No fuss, no human interaction necessary. There was rarely any line whatsoever at the government offices that provided the types of services that do require a human to sign-off on simply because they don't have to spend three minutes per person collecting and photocopying a myriad of convoluted proofs of residence etc.

All of this is in addition to the benefits to crime solving that come from having the fingerprints of every resident of the country on file. Don't get me wrong, they have some of the most comically Keystone Cops when it comes to the weak methods of physically enforcing arrests, but imagine the benefits to the investigation that having a complete national record of bio-metric data brings. I wont claim that the low crime stats are the direct result of the ID's as that is more of a cultural effect, but rather the high capture rate of those that do break enforced laws.

Back to the US: if we required all US citizens and long term residents to have a permanent national IDs and then either required temporary visitors to carry their passport or print out a temporary ID at a self-service kiosk using their passport and fingerprints as proof, then there simply wouldn't be an issue of not being able to ID someone. Forget your ID? Well you can either voluntarily walk over the LEO's laptop and scan your finger or you can wait until a judge determines whether they have reasonable reason to compel compliance.