US Politics #1

[TerraPrime]

The various protests from Tea Party members on the accusation of racism has been a big let down, so far. It is a case of eating your cake and having it, too. On the one hand, they refer to themselves as "tea partyers" (no, never "tea baggers"), as if the two words make a meaningful signifier. Then, on the other hand, when questioned about the responsibilities of the leaders of the various Tea Party groups, they give a mealy-mouthed non-excuse of "but everyone is a leader in the tea party movement!"

The less responsibility they take, the more racist the whole movement looks, from my perspective.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Everyone, is a political statement later abandoned to help the health care reform law pass Constitutional muster a lie?

http://reason.com/blog/2010/07/19/i-guess-it-depends-on-the-mean

Well, its always possible for someone to be honestly mistaken. Of course, you'd then have to determine how likely it is that a past President of the Harvard Law Review wouldn't have known a tax when he saw one.

Opinions may differ on that though, I suppose.

[Trebla]

If Obama has willfully gone back on a campaign promise, then shame on him. If not, he can just use the George Ryan Defense: "I didn't lie, I just changed my mind" ;)

[Shryke]

Everyone, is a political statement later abandoned to help the health care reform law pass Constitutional muster a lie?

http://reason.com/blog/2010/07/19/i-guess-it-depends-on-the-mean

I'd say not really.

If calling it a "Tax" is what they gotta do to make it pass Constitutional muster, so be it.

[Shryke]

I'm sorry, but I am going to have to add "refudiate" to my lexicon for a while now, kinda like "teabagger." I just can't resist.

Refudiate is an awesome new word and is Palin's greatest (and only) contribution to the human species so far.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Trebla,

As certain as Pres. Obama was that the mandate was not a tax I'd be very curious to find out what changed his mind?

[Shryke]

So, ends that are palatable to you justify the means? I think there was a big outcry when twisty logic was used to justify torture.

What ends? What means? You act like this is some sinister conspiracy or something.

It's just Legal Speak vs Political Speak.

It's like calling something "Not Murder" in court because it's Manslaughter instead.

As certain as Pres. Obama was that the mandate was not a tax I'd be very curious to find out what changed his mind?

The court case.

[TrackerNeil]

So, ends that are palatable to you justify the means? I think there was a big outcry when twisty logic was used to justify torture.

This end, being universal health insurance, seems to me much more worthy an end than, say, violating international (and sometimes domestic) law to torture people who may or may not be guilty of something. Context matters.

In any case, this kerfuffle is, in my view, just a bunch of noise. From what I've been hearing from the legal scholars the mandate seems fairly in line with both the Commerce Clause and with congressional powers of taxation, and opponents stand very little chance in the courts. (Although with the Roberts court you never know.) Some people are still angry about the Affordable Care Act and they won't let it go.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Shryke,

So, the mandate is and is not a tax? Otherwise it looks rather like the President is breaking his promise regarding no new taxes or tax increases for those making less than $250,000.00 per year.

[Shryke]

Shryke,

So, the mandate is and is not a tax? Otherwise it looks rather like the President is breaking his promise regarding no new taxes or tax increases for those making less than $250,000.00 per year.

Legally I guess it could be defined as a tax. Your the lawyer, not me. Apparently it's the Constitutional argument they are going for.

In non-legal speak, not a tax. It's a mandate. With subsidies and everything as I remember.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Tracker,

The commerce clause argument is only cool if you are okay with congressional mandates for ym memberships for everyone in the U.S.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

So, ends that are palatable to you justify the means? I think there was a big outcry when twisty logic was used to justify torture.

Well, if Obama was right, and the individual mandate is "absolutely not a tax", then that argument for the constitutionality of the mandate should fail. I don't know if there are alternative arguments. If not, the mandate will be declared unconstitutional.

But if the Administration's current position that it is a tax prevails, then Obama was either "mistaken", or lying, when he said it wasn't a tax.

[Trebla]

yeah I have no problem saying no matter what the justification, it's a broken promise. The George Ryan Defense in no better than the Wookie Defense.

[Shryke]

Then I think there appears to be a broken campaign promise.

"Read my lips"... and all that.

If you wanna go that way, you used the best analogy. Bush The Greater did work after all.

[The Progressive]

Strange that I haven't seen any indication that my federal income tax would go up. In fact, it decreased.

Let us know when federal income tax rate for those making less than $250K actually went up, ok.

In other news, some teabaggers on teabaggers action:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hnvZU6qsFDAZW1XBivtvAd5qihYwD9H2A9N00

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Lev,

Was the promise exclusive to the Federal Income tax? I don't recall that qualifier being placed upon that promise.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Lev,

In fact I believe he said this:

“I can make a firm pledge. Under my plan, no family making less than $250,000 a year will see any form of tax increases,” the Illinois senator told a crowd in Dover, N.H. on Sept. 12, 2008. “Not your income tax, not your payroll tax, not your capital gains taxes, not any of your taxes.”[emphasis added]

[The Progressive]

Did your federal income tax rate went up, Scot?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Lev,

The only taxation levied by the federal government is income taxes? Or does "any form of tax increase" somehow implicitly limit the statement to federal income taxes?

[The Progressive]

That would be the most relevant part here, yes?

Since mine and yours didn't went up, since we already have health insurance coverage, then we're not getting "taxed" at all under the recently passed healthcare affordability act.

Would there be a scenario in which some federal excise tax (gasoline for example) would have to be raised? Probably. Would that be a broken campaign promise? I guess so. Should some excise taxes be increased? If the justification is adaquate (again, excise tax on gasoline, ect.). Would I think that Obama did a good and necessary thing even though he broke part of his promise? You bet.

This is truly a tempest in a teapot being stirred by rightwingers who have already lost the argument over healthcare reform.