Will they use any CGI?

[MirriMaz]

i would think the battle on the wall would be easier to handle, one wide shot of the army (in the dark so less details) and then the rest is more skirmishes involving about 10-20 people or at least that's the way i remember it. Blackwater will probably have no chain and we'll only see close ups of the armies.

[Dennai]

i would think the battle on the wall would be easier to handle, one wide shot of the army (in the dark so less details) and then the rest is more skirmishes involving about 10-20 people or at least that's the way i remember it. Blackwater will probably have no chain and we'll only see close ups of the armies.

I disagree. Scenes that include ships in long/medium distance are much more easy to recreate than scenes who includes people in several kind of actions (shooting arrows, running, fighting, dying...), not to forget giants and mammoths. If something is particularly complicated to do convincingly (and cheap) with CGI is hairy beings and anthropomorphic motions.

Ships in movement from some distance (where their crew is hardly noticeable) and mass of soldiers simply advancing from afar(that is basically all they do on the other side of the river) are fairly easy to recreate by digital duplication without looking cheesy.

[MinDonner]

FWIW, I always thought Rome's Phillipi was not very impressive. Felt too static.

Maybe. But it was a LOT better than that "battle scene" in Season 1 (I forget which episode) - loads of buildup, "OMG this is a battle against incredible odds and will make or break the succession" *three seconds of a couple of blokes brawling in slo-mo* "Well done Caesar, victory is ours!" :bang:

Anything would be better than that.

[Werthead]

Maybe. But it was a LOT better than that "battle scene" in Season 1 (I forget which episode) - loads of buildup, "OMG this is a battle against incredible odds and will make or break the succession" *three seconds of a couple of blokes brawling in slo-mo* "Well done Caesar, victory is ours!" :bang:

Anything would be better than that.

Especially since the accompanying low-budget BBC documentary series depicted the same battle (Pharsalus) using some nice CGI. Not brilliant, but pretty well-done given their limitations. HBO didn't even bother back then. Season 1 had some nice stuff (the crowd scenes at Caesar's triumph, for example) but very brief and limited in scope. Season 2 was a lot more ambitious on a lot less money, most notably the huge set for the Collegia which had a great backdrop view of the river and the docks which was wholly CGI, not to mention the stuff in Egypt, Philippi and so on.

I think the main point is that ASoIaF isn't really about the giant battles, and the reason why they work is that there is a lot of build-up to them and explanation for why they take place. The main focus is, of course, on the characters and the intrigue. However, the battles can certainly be done in a convincing manner with modern CGI without either spending vast sums of cash or trying to make it look like LotR. Return of the King had the better part of 2,000 effects shots, mostly in the Pelennor Fields sequence (although there's frankly some stuff in the Pelennor Fields sequence which is pretty ropey, most notably the blatantly obvious greenscreen backdrops). No-one is expecting that for the series, but in an age where far, far lower-budgeted shows are doing great stuff with CGI, the constant downplaying of the show's ability to have effects and do some impressive stuff is a bit depressing. It's certainly not like the days of JMS and Ron Thornton telling us how amazing the CGI for B5 was going to be and, relative to the standards of the day, they were right.

[Ran]

Very true. GRRM's said that Rome's first season did too little, so I'm thinking there'll be rather more to be seen at the Green Fork in GoT.

[The SmilingKnight]

I think its absolutely vital they use CGI and they do show huge impressive battles of the books.

There is a sense of grandness, vastness of the story, of Westeros and its history and present events and that will be lost if they choose to cop out out of recreating huge battles, huge scenic panoramas and vistas.

[Ran]

They could do that... and then dress everyone in modern clothes and tear down 50% of the sets, perhaps? ;)

The fact is, they have a budget (a very large, but finite, budget), and they have a HUGE cast and MANY locations that they have to film. Lots of up-front costs, too, to get the show going -- hundreds of costumes, all these sets (particularly Castle Black), and so on. I expect they have an impressive VFX budget by network standards, but they have a lot of overhead as well.

I think, when we see VFX, it will be exceptional. They're not going to blow their budget on one exceptional battle scene and hurt everything else.

If they can cut down the big, expensive rendering needed for a convincing massive-scale battle scene so that they can afford making everything else look good ... well, small loss, IMO. The battle scenes requiring CG will take up one brief scene in one episode -- why worry so much about it, when there are likely to be as many as a hundred effects shots per episode? If they can sell us the battle without thirty seconds of digital actors duking it out, it's all to the good.

Mostly, I think they want to convince people that they're not getting LotR-sized battles and battle effect shots. Which is reasonable.

I think they'll match up quite well to Boardwalk Empire's effects, of course. Imagine that scene on the beach, and instead of a crowd enjoying the sun, you've got Tyrion locked in battle, and scores of other men behind him fighting off towards the river's edge.

[The SmilingKnight]

There are several battles to show, not just one and they have to feel appropriately massive though i agree that doing it in the way LOTR did it isnt necessary. Apart from that some location need to be massive too. The Wall, Kings Landing, Harenhall, Eyrie etc.

[Padraig]

There are several battles to show, not just one and they have to feel appropriately massive though i agree that doing it in the way LOTR did it isnt necessary. Apart from that some location need to be massive too. The Wall, Kings Landing, Harenhall, Eyrie etc.

I imagine what will happen with KL, the Wall and the Eyrie is that we'll get one or two pictures of all 3 and those will be shown everytime we return there. We aren't going to get a huge amount of time on those places. The focus will always be on the characters in those places.

And the battles in S1 are quite small in the books. Tyrion's battle is very personal and the Whispering Woods is all about Jaime's attack on Robb. So hardly an issue.

[Werthead]

Another massive eruptuon of CGI in tonight's Merlin (the first of a two-part season finale) and they definitely, 100% used digital actors. In fact, there were several shots of a marching army very reminiscent of The Two Towers with the orc army on the march (as well as a digital replication scene of the troops massing to defend Camelot).

However, crucially, there was another scene where we got to see some of these digital actors in the medium distance (in a scene where they are massing in the enemy fortress) and they were pretty weak. LotR's stood up to much closer inspection pretty well, but these weren't on the same order of quality. But for the long shots, they looked excellent. Given Merlin's (relatively) tiny budget, interesting to see how they handled this.

[Ran]

I would not be surprised by long distance shots of armies, of course. The low resolution of individual figures means you can get away with simple objects with basic animations and so on. I'd love an aerial view ala Alexander showing the Lannister army "unfold[ing] like an iron rose", and actually looking good while doing it (I glimpsed the Merlin scene described earlier in the thread, the one with the army attacking the castle, and a small budget was the main thing that came to mind I'm afraid; great that they were game to try, but it was very poor, IMO).

It's the closer-in stuff that people best remember about LotR -- Pelennor field, the charge of the Rohirrim with orcs sprawling to left and right and mûmakil all over the place, and so on -- and I suspect that's exactly the material they're indicating we shouldn't expect.

[Ahri Adaran]

Also with the Blackwater, there should be smoke everywhere, which limits how much they need to show.

[Rinso]

I don’t think that the CGI is that big of a problem for now. It could become a problem later on, but so far I think that they got the thing under control. The photos and the trailers all look appropriately good as far as the quality of the product is concerned.

So, I decided to put together a list of sorts, to see what we have and what we should expect/desire.

In Season 1, we have:

- the Others and the wights, but they appear in only two not-so-long scenes.

- the establishing landscape shots of the cities and the castles – Winterfell, King’s Landing, the Wall and Castle Black, perhaps the Eyrie, maybe Pentos and the Dothraki Sea/Vaes Dothrak as well. But consider that they could (and probably would) use the same establishing shots every time.

- the newborn dragons, but they appear literally for one brief scene at the very end.

- two major battles between armies – the Whispering Wood and the Green Fork. But with the Whispering Wood the plot, the location and the book allow to make more with less. The only real trouble is the Green Fork, but that’s not such an important battle anyway.

- Bran’s comatose dream.

However, in Seasons 2 and 3, the CGI and VFX troubles will only grow worse.

In Season 2 we have:

- the baby dragons becoming “regulars” of sorts, with them appearing in almost every scene where Dany is.

- we rid of some of the establishing landscapes (the Wall, the Eyrie, Pentos and the Dothraki Sea), but we gain new ones with Riverrun, Dragonstone, Storm’s End, Pyke and Qarth.

- Melisandre’s shadowbabies in two rather important scenes.

- the whole scene where Dany is in the House of the Undying is horribly important and full of need of VFX and CGI enchancing with the visions, the zombie warlocks, the floating heart and Drogon bathing everything in fire.

- the Blackwater. It’s the culmination of ACOK and to cut it off completely would be a mistake. Too much plot threads, too much build up and too much emotional tension to just rid of it all. I actually think that it’s the sole most important battle so far, as far as the grand scheme of things is concerned. They have to find a way to make it work.

And in Season 3:

- the Others and the wights return, more spectacular and numerous than back in AGOT, and with them we have not one, but two new creatures – Giants and mammoths.

- the dragons are still here and they fly and breathe more fire than before.

- some of the establishing shots are out, again (Winterfell, Storm’s End, Pyke and Qarth), but we have new ones (the three cities of the Slaver’s Bay) and some old ones returning (the Wall and the Eyrie).

- three battlescenes, which, while not as important as the Blackwater, would be heavy on the CGI because in all of them we have either Others or wights, or Giants and mammoths, or dragons. Specifically the battle for the Wall will be a tough one to recreate, I think.

Looking at it, it’s not thar the need for CGI and VFX will grow, it’s just everything will have to become more complicated and vibrant and busy and intricate with every passing season.

[Padraig]

Interesting. There is not a lot there they could easily drop either. Giants and mammoths (sadly). Battles can be downplayed.

Hopefully S1 is really successful and encouraging!

[Dennai]

I would not be surprised by long distance shots of armies, of course. The low resolution of individual figures means you can get away with simple objects with basic animations and so on. I'd love an aerial view ala Alexander showing the Lannister army "unfold[ing] like an iron rose", and actually looking good while doing it

That's exactly what I was meaning. The army beyond the river and the ships avancing into the bay should be there, specially if filmed from Keeps Landing walls. Those shots would give a touch of epicness and spectacle without being too demanding for today's standards. From the same vintage point, the green fire devastating effect when it spreads shouldn't be a problem either.

- the Others and the wights, but they appear in only two not-so-long scenes.

I can't see the reason why they should go for CGI to do this. Prothestics and make up should be fine, particularly with the wights.

Human wights, that is. I guess the polar bear wight would require something more, but I think we can lose the bear altogether with no much problem.

[Maltaran]

Regarding the dragons, certainly in season 2 it may be possible for them to use models for some of the scenes - if Dany has a dragon round her shoulders, for example.

[Venardhi]

I don't think we need to worry too much about the dragon CGI since scaly beasts are much easier than direwolves or mammoths to pull off; Jurassic Park, Dragonheart, Reign of Fire, etc. all did just fine with software less advanced and more expensive than is available today. I'm more worried about them getting the number of legs right. For my money the Reign of Fire dragons are almost pixel-perfect for the ASOIAF dragons, with perhaps a bit more color added.

[Dennai]

I don't think we need to worry too much about the dragon CGI since scaly beasts are much easier than direwolves or mammoths to pull off; Jurassic Park, Dragonheart, Reign of Fire, etc. all did just fine with software less advanced and more expensive than is available today.

I agree. Primeval is a good example of a TV series making good use of dragon-like creatures interacting with real people. The results were decent despise its limited budget. Besides, barring the slavers barbacue (and that it's not happening until the third season), the scenes with the dragons take place in dim-ligthed areas (House of the Undying, Dany's tent...), which helps to disguise CGI's shortcomings.

[Rinso]

I can't see the reason why they should go for CGI to do this. Prothestics and make up should be fine, particularly with the wights.

Human wights, that is. I guess the polar bear wight would require something more, but I think we can lose the bear altogether with no much problem.

Well, wights are basically zombies. You can do a lot with prosthetics and make up, but if they wan't to show some decomposition (and it would be nice), I think that they'll need at least a bit of CGI enchancing (think of the Walking Dead TV show - they have to have used CGI with their excellent zombies). Plus, I haven't heard of glowing blue lenses so far :unsure:

And I had forgotten all about the bear... IIRC it was pretty decomposed. Well, they could use animatronics? With just a bit CGI? Or if all else fails, they could get a real undead bear. They are not so hard to find these days. Joke aside, it would be pity to lose it, it'd make for a cool visual.

[Dennai]

Well, wights are basically zombies. You can do a lot with prosthetics and make up, but if they wan't to show some decomposition (and it would be nice), I think that they'll need at least a bit of CGI enchancing (think of the Walking Dead TV show - they have to have used CGI with their excellent zombies). Plus, I haven't heard of glowing blue lenses so far :unsure:

And I had forgotten all about the bear... IIRC it was pretty decomposed. Well, they could use animatronics? With just a bit CGI? Or if all else fails, they could get a real undead bear. They are not so hard to find these days. Joke aside, it would be pity to lose it, it'd make for a cool visual.

Well ASOIAF is full of cool things, but I guess we must prepare for losing a lot of those in the TV series.

At the end of the day, it's not the CGI what it will draw us to the series.

Clearly, the boards have spoken, and we know which post is the one with more participation and enthusiasm in the TV adaptation forum. It's not the battles or the fantastic creatures or the sweeping panoramic views what it's most anticipated.

It's not the shinny armors or the elaborate weapons or the colorful dresses. Nor the impressive sets.

It's not the acting either.

What we fans really want to see is...

... the sex scenes.