What's Wrong With Our Youth?

[Balefont]

I can only assume that in your race to pawn off a response on other people, you didn't bother to actually read what I wrote.

No, she did. Which is why she said what she said.

I use the terms bitch, slut, cunt, etc. However, I guess I'm in the reclaimation camp. It's similar to how blacks have reclaimed "nigger" but it's only deemed acceptable amongst themselves.

'Not all bastards are dwarfs but all dwarfs are bastards.'

[Shryke]

No, she didn't. In fact, she simply pointed right back to the exact resources I was commenting on.

All of which make a huge logical fallacy by assuming "Bitch" is always and only equal to "Strong Successful Women". This is not true in the slightest. One can be a weak, unsuccessful bitch and a strong successful not-bitch.

Bitch is a description of certain behavior, not of a specific type of women. It's just that these 2 things do overlap. But overlap is not equality. This behavior, in fact, can be exhibited by men as well, and our language has insults to level at it in that context as well. The insult is directed at the behavior, independent of the sex of the person exhibiting it. It's just that we tend to use different insults depending on the sex of the person.

This is, if you actually read what I said, not in any way a comment on the way our culture views/accepts these behaviors when used by different sexes.

[Balefont]

Bitch is a description of certain behavior, not of a specific type of women. It's just that these 2 things do overlap. But overlap is not equality. This behavior, in fact, can be exhibited by men as well, and our language has insults to level at it in that context as well. The insult is directed at the behavior, independent of the sex of the person exhibiting it. It's just that we tend to use different insults depending on the sex of the person.

Unforunately, the connotation does exist. Bitch, when used on a woman, most often describes a woman who acts in manner that is displeasing or one who does not behave as she should and when bitch is used to describe a man it most often refers to a man behaving like the perception of a woman (weak).

I prefer asshole for both sexes. If you can't support your opinion that a woman is an asshole but you can support your position that she is a bitch, you are most likely using the term in a sexist manner. Likewise, if you cannot call a man an asshole but you can call him a dick, chances are you are using the term in a sexist manner. However, I hear people called dicks far, far less often as the term bitch is used.

[Cantabile]

And Cantabile, I too am in the Fine Arts. Don't tell me that if a female conductor came into your orchestra (if a woman had the audacity to be a conductor, as less than 10% are) that her "exacting standards" would not be characterized in some way different than a male conductor by members of said orchestra - and certainly in terms that were negatively gender based. I don't know anyone in the fine arts (on a world wide scale) who has not experienced or witnessed it.

As you say, there are very few female conductors, so I don't have much personal experience with them. I have had multiple female concertmasters, however, which were generally very well respected and liked by the other musicians, and were not discriminated against based on gender. There was one that was called "bitch" and worse, but that was directly related to her personal qualities, as Shryke says: aggressive, over-bearing, hothead, etc. She was disliked in the same way that male concert masters are disliked when they're being condescending asses.

[Balefont]

As you say, there are very few female conductors, so I don't have much personal experience with them. I have had multiple female concertmasters, however, which were generally very well respected and liked by the other musicians, and were not discriminated against based on gender. There was one that was called "bitch" and worse, but that was directly related to her personal qualities, as Shryke says: aggressive, over-bearing, hothead, etc. She was disliked in the same way that male concert masters are disliked when they're being condescending asses.

So why not have called her a condescending ass?

[Cantabile]

So why not have called her a condescending ass?

She was, multiple times. But "bitch" encompasses all her other quality traits, so she was called that too by the musicians. When a male concert master exhibits those traits, he more often than not gets called a dick.

[Balefont]

She was, multiple times. But "bitch" encompasses all her other quality traits, so she was called that too by the musicians. When a male concert master exhibits those traits, he more often than not gets called a dick.

So bitch would be used for her because she's a woman and dick would be used for him because he is a man. Yet, bitch (which is the term under discussion here) is not a gender-centered/oppressive term?

[Cantabile]

So bitch would be used for her because she's a woman and dick would be used for him because he is a man. Yet, bitch (which is the term under discussion here) is not a gender-centered/oppressive term?

The two terms are gender-centric, yes, but simply because a word is primarily used to refer to a gender does not make it oppressive to that gender. It's only sexist if there's not an equally used term for the opposite gender as well, which in this case there is.

In an ideal language I would prefer gender-neutrality, and maybe I shouldn't use "dick" or "bitch" and such simply for that end. English is still very well off in this regard, though. Have you studied gendered languages? "Bitch" and "dick" is pretty mild compared to the reality that some languages require completely different vocabulary and grammar for each gender.

[Cuellar]

Does anyone else find it amusing that this discussion is basically about gender specific profanity and that profanity's inequality?

Backing up a second, if you're trying to insult/curse/berate someone, doesn't it relate more to the perception of the person who is the focus of those insults and what THEY believe is the intent, rather than the insult itself?

If it was a video game it'd be like calling a woman a bitch gives them a -2 to mood, while calling a guy the same gives him a -1 to mood. But of course you could use it in a non-insulting way, which causes not impact (IE saying to your friends "put down the x-box controllers and lets go to the mall bitches").

[Guest Raidne]

I read this thread and found it amusing that nobody brought up gendered terms in the 8 pages I read. For instance, I assumed that Cantabile, based on what he said on the first place, would object to the following sentence:

"Dude, quit being such a girl."

But, I suspect it would not, because it kind of messes with his argument that bitch isn't sexist because there is an equivalent term for men to acknowledge that a totally neutral, non-insulting word for people of the female sex can be used as an insult.

For my part, I've already devoted an entire thread to why I think it's okay to use the word "retard," as inspired by Stephen Colbert's total pwnage of Sarah Palin back in February 2010 (where Palin slammed Rahmbo's use of the word, but defended Rush Limbaugh's as "satire" and Colbert took her up on her satirical exception using his position as a satirist to call her "f*ing retarded").

On some level, I suppose I object to all the gendered terms as well, but I use them, and I just don't really care all that much. And every year, bitch carries the connotation of irrational and unjustified a little bit less, and dick means irrational and unjustified a little bit more, and sometimes moving bitch closer to dick is the best that a feminist can hope for.

I guess that's progress. *sigh*

[Balefont]

Yup.

[Guest Raidne]

I've also learned that calling a guy a bitch actually pisses them off a lot more than calling a woman one, because it = mean and irrational + girl, while for a woman it just = mean and irrational.

[kungtotte]

and sometimes moving bitch closer to dick is the best that a feminist can hope for.

I can't decide if this is Hiyoo!-worthy or not...

[aimlessgun]

"Bitch" isn't used to describe a successful independent women. It's, with women anyway, used to describe a set of behaviors. Generally, aggressive, overbearing, overly-blunt, quick to anger, etc.

It's just that our culture does tend to reward many of these kinds of behaviors with success. A man would be called an asshole or a dick or the like for that kind of stuff.

I think part of the argument is that women will get called a 'bitch' for behavior that would acceptable in a man. Not for behavior that would get a man called an asshole.

EDIT: Oh, I actually already said this on page 9.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I think part of the argument is that women will get called a 'bitch' for behavior that would acceptable in a man. Not for behavior that would get a man called an asshole.

EDIT: Oh, I actually already said this on page 9.

Well, something's certainly go their panties in a bunch in this thread....

[Guest Raidne]

I think part of the argument is that women will get called a 'bitch' for behavior that would acceptable in a man. Not for behavior that would get a man called an asshole.

Just wanted to note that I also think is less true than it used to be. In fact, a lot of times when I hear the word lately it's being applied to some woman engaged in passive-aggressive behavior of the sort that actually exploits traditional gender expectations, like faux-helpful snarky undercutting "advice."

And by "hear," I mean "say." :)

[Balefont]

Just wanted to note that I also think is less true than it used to be. In fact, a lot of times when I hear the word lately it's being applied to some woman engaged in passive-aggressive behavior of the sort that actually exploits traditional gender expectations, like faux-helpful snarky undercutting "advice."

And by "hear," I mean "say." :)

I think that passive-agreesive is more often identified as a female behavior. I think that passive-agressive traditionally is/was associated with women* whereas confrontational would be more masculine. (*probably because many women are still ingrained with the whole pleasing others role and direct confrontation is too in-your-face for women's need to be liked by all)

But I do agree that there has been quite a shift over the past 5 years or so. At least that's my observation. :)

ETA: I've always been confrontational. Shocking, I know. :P

[Shryke]

I think part of the argument is that women will get called a 'bitch' for behavior that would acceptable in a man. Not for behavior that would get a man called an asshole.

I agree, but that's a comment on our society's perception of gender roles and not on the word "Bitch".

Basically "Bitch" is always used to describe behavior that is rude, aggressive, over-bearing, etc. It's just that in our society, the level of acceptance for this behavior is lower for women then for men.

So bitch would be used for her because she's a woman and dick would be used for him because he is a man. Yet, bitch (which is the term under discussion here) is not a gender-centered/oppressive term?

No, because what you are saying means it's a gender-specific term. It doesn't say anything about it being gender-oppressive.

Bitch is even more interesting in this respect because, as noted above, it's meaning shifts depending on which gender it's assigned to.

[Balefont]

I agree, but that's a comment on our society's perception of gender roles and not on the word "Bitch".

Basically "Bitch" is always used to describe behavior that is rude, aggressive, over-bearing, etc. It's just that in our society, the level of acceptance for this behavior is lower for women then for men.

And, like Cantible, you've answered yourself in your own statement

Don't forget, this whole thing started when Cantible felt that the use of the word "bitch" is justifiable yet the use of the words "nigger", "retard", or "gay" are not. That there is an inherent hypocrisy in that philosophy is all I've been trying to say.

I, personally, use the word bitch for different things. And I am fully aware of the negative female connotations associated to the word in most instances and, therefore, I don't use it to call a woman a bitch if she is exhibiting what have traditionally been viewed as male-type behaviors. Cantible has already admitted he does use it when describing such a woman.

[Cantabile]

No, you misunderstand me. I do not use it to describe women who I think are breaching the traditional gender roles. I am all for shattering gender roles and stereotypes. I use it to describe women who I think are aggressive, exceptionally rude, overbearing, and spiteful. And I have stated that I don't approve of it being used lightly; if a woman is being called a bitch for displaying behaviors that a man wouldn't be criticized and insulted for, then in no way should the woman be called a bitch.

And no one has explained how it's hypocritical to hold this view. If it oppressed women, it'd be hypocritical, but I am approving its use only in situations where the woman is truly being spiteful, rude, and overbearing, on a level that any human being would be insulted for, regardless of their gender. Since I only approve of its use in situations where a man would be equally criticized for the behaviors, how can it possibly be oppressive?