Shryke Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 It's not so much a false recovery as an uneven one. Though depending on how you feel, that pretty much does make it not a real recovery in practical terms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Lord of Winterfell Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Also, I can't figure out how the Neo-Cons are thinking they can say "we were right!" when absolutely nothing they wanted to do or predicted would happen is happening.That's actually pretty difficult to say one way or the other, especially since not all so-called neo-cons see everything the same way. The general theory was that introducing democracy into the Mideast would result in better long term stability than propping up dictators. It was a form of idealism that some folks thought was unrealistic. But again, the permutations varied from neo-con to neo-con. I also think there is a tendency to label everyone on the right as a "neocon", when in fact, there was a pretty good split between the neo-cons and the "realists" even within conservativism. Neo-cons foreign policy principles were not popular among many conservatives.Anyway, here's something from Chris Matthews addressing this:http://www.breitbart.tv/were-neocons-right-about-middle-east-was-bush-better-equipped-to-handle-egypt-than-obama/By the way, there is a HUGE distinction between saying the neo-cons may have been correct about the need to promote democracy over realpolitik, and endorsing the methods they wanted to use to effect that change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Also, I can't figure out how the Neo-Cons are thinking they can say "we were right!" when absolutely nothing they wanted to do or predicted would happen is happening.Yet you aren't surprised that they would do so.I really wish we still had some round these parts. Where the fuck is dirjj when you want his opinion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 I think you know my position on that ;)I would agree. Growth at the top end and nothing at the middle or bottom doesn't count. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commodore Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2011/02/01/clueless_in_washington_108731.htmlThe problem with this recommendation is that it is based entirely on the nature of Mubarak's regime. If the regime was the biggest problem, then certainly removing US support for it would make sense. However, the character of the protesters is not liberal.Indeed, their character is a bigger problem than the character of the regime they seek to overthrow.According to a Pew opinion survey of Egyptians from June 2010, 59 percent said they back Islamists. Only 27% said they back modernizers. Half of Egyptians support Hamas. Thirty percent support Hizbullah and 20% support al Qaida. Moreover, 95% of them would welcome Islamic influence over their politics. When this preference is translated into actual government policy, it is clear that the Islam they support is the al Qaida Salafist version.Eighty two percent of Egyptians support executing adulterers by stoning, 77% support whipping and cutting the hands off thieves. 84% support executing any Muslim who changes his religion.When given the opportunity, the crowds on the street are not shy about showing what motivates them. They attack Mubarak and his new Vice President Omar Suleiman as American puppets and Zionist agents. The US, protesters told CNN's Nick Robertson, is controlled by Israel. They hate and want to destroy Israel. That is why they hate Mubarak and Suleiman.WHAT ALL of this makes clear is that if the regime falls, the successor regime will not be a liberal democracy. Mubarak's military authoritarianism will be replaced by Islamic totalitarianism. The US's greatest Arab ally will become its greatest enemy. Israel's peace partner will again become its gravest foe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Lord of Winterfell Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 I've bitched here plenty about the lack of tolerance in much of the Muslim world, and a lot of the things you cited from that poll validate that. I don't take any of that back. However....According to a Pew opinion survey of Egyptians from June 2010, 59 percent said they back Islamists. Only 27% said they back modernizers. Half of Egyptians support Hamas. Thirty percent support Hizbullah and 20% support al Qaida. Moreover, 95% of them would welcome Islamic influence over their politics. When this preference is translated into actual government policy, it is clear that the Islam they support is the al Qaida Salafist version.I don't see how someone can acknowledge that 80% of Egyptians don't support AQ, but still conclude that Egyptians support the "Al Qaeda Salafist" version of Islam. And perhaps, part of that support for Hizbullah, Hamas, and AQ is based at anger against Mubarak, and the belief that more radical measures may be needed to get rid of him. If he goes, it is possible that popular opinion in favor of more radical groups might diminish.I do not believe the Egyptian military will be going to war against Israel any time in the near future, regardless of what happens with this power struggle. Much of their leadership is U.S.-trained, and they don't want to start a war they know cannot possibly end up good for Egypt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddison Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Al Arabiya reporting that Mubarak will announce in a speech tonight that he will not run again for re-election. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Al Arabiya reporting that Mubarak will announce in a speech tonight that he will not run again for re-election.he really needs to step down.when are elections? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddison Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 They were scheduled for September, but now, who knows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merentha Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Commodore: The specific language of the questions involved can have a tremendous effect on the responses of survey questions, especially on religious or social matters. In addition, conducting a face-to-face study in a state known for heavy police responses is going to add several confounds into the study that make the results questionable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Progressive Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Interesting comments by the IMF about the global recoveryand why it isn't the one "they wanted":This is one of the first times I've seen anyone Davos-worthy say outright that the recovery is a false one.Definitely some crazy shit ahead.Lol, I think you owe Krugman an apology, Coco.On Egypt, I don't see any sign to indicate that this uprising is due to anything but secular-based grievances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merentha Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 edit: double post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Lord of Winterfell Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 They were scheduled for September, but now, who knows?If he says he's not running, schedules elections for September, and removes some of the restrictions on parties, he might just make it until then. He should comes out and say that he is informing the military of this decision, and that it will be the guarantor that such elections occur so that people aren't as worried he'll just change his mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commodore Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/258542/thomas-jefferson-martin-luther-and-muslim-brotherhood-duncan-currie“I fully expect the Muslim Brotherhood to do well in any election,” Gerecht tells me. “They have a fairly substantial following.” He has no illusions about the group’s Islamist agenda, or about its virulent anti-Americanism, or about its hatred of Israel. In his view, calling for U.S. “engagement” with the Brotherhood is like calling for engagement with Ayatollah Khamenei. But Gerecht insists that allowing Brotherhood members to participate in a democratic process is the sine qua non of Egyptian political maturation. The country will never achieve real progress, he says, without first creating the political space necessary for a momentous debate over God and man. Indeed, Egypt’s secular liberals must defeat the Islamists in the public square, rather than through military repression. They must win the battle of ideas…While democratic elections do not necessarily promote stability — indeed, they can dramatically disrupt short-term stability — they do “allow for the evolution of these societies.” Luckily for us, Gerecht adds, the democratic wave is crashing before the Muslim Middle East goes nuclear. Our biggest concern isn’t really the outcome of the first free Egyptian election; it’s preventing the cancellation or theft of the second free election (and the third, and the fourth, etc.).If Egyptians voted the Brotherhood into a position of serious power, that would generate a kaleidoscope of problems for America and Israel (and Egypt). No serious analyst should pretend otherwise. But Gerecht’s logic is inescapable: You can’t have authentic Egyptian democracy while disenfranchising the country’s largest opposition movement. If you aren’t willing to countenance Brotherhood electoral participation, you shouldn’t be demanding representative government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thelonious Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 According to a Pew opinion survey of Egyptians from June 2010, 59 percent said they back Islamists. Only 27% said they back modernizers. Half of Egyptians support Hamas. Thirty percent support Hizbullah and 20% support al Qaida. Moreover, 95% of them would welcome Islamic influence over their politics.None of this means anything without knowing who exactly was being polled and what questions they were being asked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S John Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 None of this means anything without knowing who exactly was being polled and what questions they were being asked.I have to ask. What the hell is your avatar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna Stark Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 None of this means anything without knowing who exactly was being polled and what questions they were being asked.Exactly.Also, The Guardian has a piece on this: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/31/egypt-protesters-islamists-muslim-brotherhood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commodore Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/02/01/thousands-converge-cairo-demand-mubarak/#ixzz1CjiT9nhZAl-Jazeera reports that the Egyptian Embassy in Tel Aviv is making preparations to welcome him[Mubarak] into exile.interesting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Lord of Winterfell Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/258542/thomas-jefferson-martin-luther-and-muslim-brotherhood-duncan-currieWell, that's why I think we should be a lot more upfront and blunt about this. It is up to the people of a country to select their government, and outside of genocide, the only legitimate interest of outsiders is that the country does not become aggressive to other countries. That's it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Reports of over a million people taking to the street of Cairo. Look at these guys go...gives me goosebumps.http://english.aljazeera.net/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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