The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread, Part X

[Dragonfish]

But not through the same parent...

It's a shitty metaphor to begin with...implying that they're all Stark on their mother's side...when only Jon is if R+L=J is true.

What does it matter if it's through the same parent or not? Does the genetic material offered by Jon's mother not count?

Jon is part Stark no matter what, but most importantly he acts like a Stark. That's why he has a wolf.

[Masha]

I read somewhere online a new theory, that the reason why GRRM had delayed ADWD so much is because he might have decided to change whole storyline. The theory goes that he looked in on some of forums and it kind of annoyed him that everyone was guessing R+L=J and that he apparently made it so easy to guess what was probably a major reveal, so he decided to change the whole storyline to remove R+L=J, thus changing the whole original story therefore delaying the book and slowing the progress enormously and maybe even giving him the writers block for a time.

I would really hope that this is not true, that GRRM would not consider changing the whole story just to make sure that fans don't second guess his huge reveal!

[zmflavius]

I read somewhere online a new theory, that the reason why GRRM had delayed ADWD so much is because he might have decided to change whole storyline. The theory goes that he looked in on some of forums and it kind of annoyed him that everyone was guessing R+L=J and that he apparently made it so easy to guess what was probably a major reveal, so he decided to change the whole storyline to remove R+L=J, thus changing the whole original story therefore delaying the book and slowing the progress enormously and maybe even giving him the writers block for a time.

I would really hope that this is not true, that GRRM would not consider changing the whole story just to make sure that fans don't second guess his huge reveal!

Actually, I read on GRRM's livejournal that he doesn't read online forums and such, to avoid precisely such a possibility.

[Masha]

Actually, I read on GRRM's livejournal that he doesn't read online forums and such, to avoid precisely such a possibility.

I hope you are right. Because I love the R+L=J theory, and if it ends up not true, I'd hate the thought that originally it was true but GRRM decided to change it because of fan speculation and theories!

[Edward the Great]

I read somewhere online a new theory,

I read somewhere that monkeys might fly out of my butt. It doesn't make it true. I cannot possibly believe that Martin considers his fans so stupid that he hasn't assumed they've figured out who Jon's mother is by now. Indications are that the TV series will make it more flagrantly obvious than the books. There are genuine mysteries to be revealed.

[Prince of the North]

Indications are that the TV series will make it more flagrantly obvious than the books.

What makes you say this?

[Whatever]

1. Jon is generally treated as a bastard, though a favoured and well treated one, and has the slur of the god's disfavour upon him regardless of his actual words or deeds. That is mentioned elsewhere.

1a. Even if Jon is from R+L, Ned may not have any evidence, therefore belief, that R+L were married, so in his eyes Jon may very well be a bastard, just not his. Yes, we know that 3 KG were at the ToJ, which strongly points to a legal marriage, but Ned isn't necessarily a subtle enough thinker to put that together (and hasn't exactly discussed those events with anyone).

2. Bastards are a direct byproduct of the lusts of men. If they weren't lusting, they wouldn't be in the wrong set of sheets and all children would be legitimate.

3. There isn't any comparison between Robert+Barra and Ned+Jon. Ned is merely being forced to deal face to face with the inherent injustice of his society's attitude to bastards. In Winterfell it is there all the time, but greatly reduced by his own actions - which means he isn't faced with the depth of the reality of bastardry so often. Here he is, so he is perhaps realising truly just what it means for Jon. He knew it before, but he never really had to face it and thus really 'know' it.

So... he's just been faced by the reality that is the hand that most bastards get from life. Which makes him think of Jon, and the 'taint' that he will always face.

And he realises that his society's stance is inherently flawed. The gods frown on bastards yet cause the lusts that create them. That is punishing the victim!

That is why he thinks it 'dully' - its a sad, sobering thought when you see the injustice in your own beliefs, especially for a man like Ned.

this is just...wow :bowdown: :bowdown:

:agree:

I read somewhere online a new theory, that the reason why GRRM had delayed ADWD so much is because he might have decided to change whole storyline.

i don't think so. D&D guessed who jon's mom is and GRRM was just pleased they got the answer right

[Edward the Great]

What makes you say this?

Some quote from Ned

"When we meet again, we shall speak of your mother."

Maybe that was in the book as well, come to think of it.

There's also a face to face encounter between Jon and Jaime.

[Whatever]

No, it wasn't

[Dragonfish]

Ned does speak the line, "You may not have my name, but you have my blood," which is based on a similar line in the books that many people point to in support of R+L=J. So, the fact that the producers included it means that they are at least aware of the theory and want to tease at it.

[iamthedave]

Ned does speak the line, "You may not have my name, but you have my blood," which is based on a similar line in the books that many people point to in support of R+L=J. So, the fact that the producers included it means that they are at least aware of the theory and want to tease at it.

Doesn't that every bit support the idea that he's Ned's son? I mean... as a bastard he wouldn't have Ned's name, but would have his blood?

Not really compelling.

[morbiczer]

Doesn't that every bit support the idea that he's Ned's son? I mean... as a bastard he wouldn't have Ned's name, but would have his blood?

Not really compelling.

I sorta agree. But the text from the books that this line is based on is much more clear.

Catelyn thinks back to the time of their early marriage when she once confronted Eddard about the rumours that Jon was Ashara Dayne's son. He replied angrily that Jon was his blood, and that was all she had to know. Then he put an end to the talk about E+A=J.

[themadking]

What has been the consensus on the importance of Howland Reed to this mystery? With Eddard dead, it seems to me that the only other person alive who could offer proof of Jon's real parentage could be Howland Reed, who was clearly one of Eddard's good friends and his companion during the war, as well as present at the Tower of Joy, and so would know for certainty Jon's parentage, whether it was Ned and some other woman, or R and L.

[Thoheeks Bili]

""Like sands through the hourglass, so are the days of our lives." :cheers: as we wait and debate on the series.

Cmon George, give us an early prezzy. :drool:

[Dragonfish]

Doesn't that every bit support the idea that he's Ned's son? I mean... as a bastard he wouldn't have Ned's name, but would have his blood?

Not really compelling.

Certainly it's not compelling on its own, but the line it's based on is often referred to by R+L=J supporters, in conjunction with other bits of evidence, to show that Ned avoids referring to Jon as his son ("my blood" could simply refer to the fact that Jon and Ned share a Stark bloodline). It comes across as purposefully ambiguous, a way for Ned to talk about Jon's relation to him without lying or contradicting his story that Jon is his son.

Now, the fact that the producers inserted this line, when in the books it only takes place in Catelyn's memory, seems like a pretty good indication that they are at least aware of the theory. Of course they could also be teasing fans, which I wouldn't put past them.

[Lord Jon Elurra]

What has been the consensus on the importance of Howland Reed to this mystery? With Eddard dead, it seems to me that the only other person alive who could offer proof of Jon's real parentage could be Howland Reed, who was clearly one of Eddard's good friends and his companion during the war, as well as present at the Tower of Joy, and so would know for certainty Jon's parentage, whether it was Ned and some other woman, or R and L.

I´ll add two more, or 5...

• Ashara Dayne, if she is not dead.
• Wylla.
• Three little dragons.

[Forgiven]

Hmm, looking at the episode one made me wonder...

Jon doesn't look much like a Stark, nor does he look like Targyeren (then again, neither did a lot of the other characters quite with what I imagined), but he's dead set for what I imagined Roberts bastard to look like...

...So could it be Robert + Lyanna = Jon instead, after all, Robert is not really known for restraint, they were in love, so...

I haven't read through the books with this in mind yet, so if someone can fast disprove the idea, please, go ahead.

Keeping in mind that not all 'prophesies' come true, I'm damn dissapointed if Dany actually succeeds finally after building up for such a proper cliff to fall from.

I can think of few chapters that I really need to reread if it were thus, especially the part of Roberts death...

[Dragonfish]

Hmm, looking at the episode one made me wonder...

Jon doesn't look much like a Stark, nor does he look like Targyeren (then again, neither did a lot of the other characters quite with what I imagined), but he's dead set for what I imagined Roberts bastard to look like...

...So could it be Robert + Lyanna = Jon instead, after all, Robert is not really known for restraint, they were in love, so...

I haven't read through the books with this in mind yet, so if someone can fast disprove the idea, please, go ahead.

Keeping in mind that not all 'prophesies' come true, I'm damn dissapointed if Dany actually succeeds finally after building up for such a proper cliff to fall from.

I can think of few chapters that I really need to reread if it were thus, especially the part of Roberts death...

I wouldn't use the show as evidence, only the books. And in the books, the typical Stark look is brown hair whereas the typical Baratheon look is black hair. Doesn't absolutely disprove anything, of course, but neither does it prove anything.

[Masonity]

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.

Surely the key parts to the oath are the latter parts, after "live and die at my post"?

What if keeping one part of the oath required breaking another? Did Jon break his oath sleeping with a Wilder, risking siring a child?

If the only way Jon can guard the realms of men, end the threat of the others and bring the dawn is to break the earlier part of the oath, then surely the oath obligates him to do so. After all, his life and honor belong to the Watch, not to himself. So should the interests of the watch force him to take a wife, sire a child and wear a throne, so long as he keeps his watch 'til the day he dies, makes the realm itself his post, and wins glory only for the nightwatch and against the Others, then he's in the clear.

He's breaking a minor part of the oath in order to keep the spirit of it. If that dishonours him, then his honour wasn't his in the first place. It's the watches. So long as he lives his life for the cause it matters not if he is Lord Commander on the wall or King Jon on the Iron throne.

After all, there are recruiters are there not? They aren't at a post on the wall, fighting wilders and Others. Maybe there's a fifth role, a unique role, in the watch. One he alone can fill, that will lead to their victory. That may mean seeming, to some, to turn his back on his oath.

[LC Snow]

@Masonity

Thisis the only theory I haveseen thus far as to how Jon could end up being involved with either Dany or the realm. This would follow George's love for conflicted character and bittersweet endings.