The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread, Part X

[iamthedave]

Frankly speaking that action on part of Ned, allowing Jon to take the black when Jon didn't know any better, makes me feel that Ned wanted to protect Robert and make sure there is no Targ on throne , and protect the kingdom far more than he would have wanted whats best for Jon! Taking the Black pretty much guarantees that the man cannot marry and have legitimate kids, end of the bloodline so to speak, just as bad as castration. Makes me feel that allowing this to happen was part of subconsious for Ned, making sure that Targ's don't breed again!

Lulwhat?

Ned hated the idea of Jon taking the Black, because Jon didn't know what he was giving up. In fact all the adults disliked him taking the Black because he was too young. Jon made the choice, and it wasn't like anyone could stop him.

[iamthedave]

Jon isn't anymore of a cliche than Tyrion or Arya.

He sure will be if this theory is true. That's why a lot of people don't want it to be.

I can't really see the argument for Tyrion being a cliche, personally. I've not run into his like in other stories.

And people dislike Arya for the same reasons they dislike Jon, so not the best person to raise in that sentence.

[Bajaz]

1. Targaryen or not, Jon has to stay on the Wall. What difference does it make for him ? Who will tell him, in the first place ? One of the two men who knew is dead, and the other hasn't appeared in the books.

First of all,Jon did have option to leave,so it is possible for him to leave.

Barristan can tell him,I think that he knows the truth.

[LadyMary]

He sure will be if this theory is true. That's why a lot of people don't want it to be.

How so? What is the cliche? I'm serious... I don't understand what is cliche about this. This story, like other works of fiction, has certain elements common to other stories. Is that what is meant by cliche?

[iamthedave]

How so? What is the cliche? I'm serious... I don't understand what is cliche about this. This story, like other works of fiction, has certain elements common to other stories. Is that what is meant by cliche?

What, the guy who is born low and treated with contempt for his low status but with mysterious parentage just happens to be royalty?

That's one of the classic cliches if ever there was one.

[BigFatCoward]

does anybody else think it would be awesome if howland reed (prob the only person who knows) said 'wait a second everyone, jon is the tru king' and everyone said, 'course he is, move along crazy frog man'

[Été]

1. Targaryen or not, Jon has to stay on the Wall. What difference does it make for him ? Who will tell him, in the first place ? One of the two men who knew is dead, and the other hasn't appeared in the books.

First of all,Jon did have option to leave,so it is possible for him to leave.

Barristan can tell him,I think that he knows the truth.

If Jon did end up leaving the Wall later in the series, who's to say it would necessarily be of his own volition? We already know the Targaryens were polygamous, so if Jon turned out to be Rhaegar's legitimate heir he'd be hot property (or kindling at least, if Melisande got involved).

The only person who definitely knows is Howland Reed. Bran's fate is already bound up with that of Reed's kids so the revelation could come through his story. But there are a few more logical possibilities.

Aerys' Kingsguard, for starters, of whom only Barristan Selmy and Jaime Lannister are still alive. With three of them at the Tower of Joy, some of the others might've known what was happening there. Jaime was a new recruit at the time and a Lannister to boot, but Barristan was a trusted veteran so could have been in the hypothetical inner circle.

Then there are the Daynes. We know Eddard Stark spent time at Starfall after the Tower of Joy, and I doubt he would have concocted the story about Wylla without the Daynes' collusion. I have no idea why they'd help the man who killed Arthur Dayne, but if R+L=J is in fact the case I expect a big chunk of the story to come from the Daynes - not least the details of what happened to Lyanna in the time between her disappearance and death.

Also purely speculative, Maester Aemon could be in the know. Targaryens do take their lineage seriously. Just a few thoughts.

[Talleyrand]

I'd love for Jon to finally meet Howland Reed and i hope the conversation would go like this:

"Who's my mother?"

"Why the hell would i know?"

or for him to really be Catlyn's son and Robb is the bastard.

[EvilClosetMonkey]

What, the guy who is born low and treated with contempt for his low status but with mysterious parentage just happens to be royalty?

That's one of the classic cliches if ever there was one.

I see what people are getting at here but it is really only cliche if it goes to the next step and Jon becomes king or something like that. If we're going to count Jon as cliche for having secret parents then we need to treat many of the characters as cliche. The thing is that Martin sets up characters with familiar tropes and then subverts those tropes so I am not surprised to find Jon with a backstory that is typical fantasy fare but I will be surprised and disappointed if his story unfolds in a typical way for a character of hidden parentage.

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Without reading this thread, I find several problems with this theory (that said I have read the first three books so far...) :

1. Targaryen or not, Jon has to stay on the Wall. What difference does it make for him ? Who will tell him, in the first place ? One of the two men who knew is dead, and the other hasn't appeared in the books.

This isn't really a reason why R + L != J. In fact, given Martin's love for subverting tropes, I'd say this could be seen as support for the theory.

2. If - and that's a big if - this is true, there has to be a third Targaryen out there, as the "dragon has three heads". (Dany, Jon - and at best he's only half-Targaryen - and... ?)

How do we know the three heads weren't Rhaegar, Dany and Viserys, the last of the Targaryen line ? Or that the three heads mean Dany has to find two powerful allies to rule Westeros ?

GRRM has said that the three heads aren't necessarily all Targaryens. Again though, this isn't directly related to Jon's parentage.

3. Dany and Jon...or not. One can't marry, and the other can't have children. Dany will not want any Stark near the throne. She wants to rule alone.

Again, not directly related to R + L = J but:

1. Correct that Jon can't marry as long as he's in the Night's Watch but we've already seen Stannis offer Jon a way out of that so it's not inconceivable that Jon could marry at some point.

2. We think Dany is barren because that's what MMD said, but we have no other evidence that this is the case.

3. I'd agree that Dany probably wouldn't have wanted Ned near the throne but I am not convinced that she'd oppose any Stark in a position of power nor am I convinced she wants to rule completely alone. I don't think we have enough information to say that.

[Blue Steel]

How so? What is the cliche? I'm serious... I don't understand what is cliche about this. This story, like other works of fiction, has certain elements common to other stories. Is that what is meant by cliche?

As opposed to the ugly guy who happens to be smart and who happens to be an incredible warrior despite his physical handicaps?

And what's bad about cliches anyway? You realize that everything someone writes is based off of something they have seen before so everything is a cliche to begin with.

Cliches don't matter. It's how they are written that is important. What happens is never as important as to how it happens.

[Abolesco]

Apologies if this has been mentioned already, but the choice of words in this quote struck me as very interesting.

-(From the SSM section of the site)-

This third Targaryen might very well be -not- a Targaryen, to quote his exact words... "Three heads of the dragon... yes... but the third will not nessesarily BE a Targaryen..."

--

Seems to me that the quote assumes that there will be two Targaryens in the mix. With how GRRM is about wording that seems like an awfully large flashing sign.

[eloquentrave]

Funnily enough, I tend to view Lyanna's personality as being enough of a subversion of the meme... err, trope, to cover both Jon AND his princely father.

I mean, she WAS the mystery knight who kicked the arses of the knights who bullied Reed.

Further, as Rhaegar knew it was her, Martin again twists the trope, by having the prince horne for a very strong female with whom he might make a true ptwp, as opposed to a helpless beauty. Fighting brood mare ftw.

Also, how people overlook the fact that Jon WAS, in fact, a spoiled whiny brat, prior to coming to a few brutal realizations, and manning up, eludes me.

[LadyMary]

Funnily enough, I tend to view Lyanna's personality as being enough of a subversion of the meme... err, trope, to cover both Jon AND his princely father.

I mean, she WAS the mystery knight who kicked the arses of the knights who bullied Reed.

Further, as Rhaegar knew it was her, Martin again twists the trope, by having the prince horne for a very strong female with whom he might make a true ptwp, as opposed to a helpless beauty. Fighting brood mare ftw.

Also, how people overlook the fact that Jon WAS, in fact, a spoiled whiny brat, prior to coming to a few brutal realizations, and manning up, eludes me.

Jon was naive and sheltered. I wouldn't call that spoiled. It's hardly spoiled when your stepmother treats you like something she'd wipe off her shoe and wishes you'd been crippled in a fall.

About cliches: "...A cliché or cliche (pronounced UK: /ˈkliːʃeɪ/, US: /klɪˈʃeɪ/) is an expression, idea, or element of an artistic work which has been overused to the point of losing its original meaning or effect, rendering it a stereotype, especially when at some earlier time it was considered meaningful or novel..." (Wikipedia)

So, I guess for some people the idea of underdogs who have a world of crap thrown in their paths which they have to struggle to overcome may be a "cliche", but I like it. Sue me. I'm always going to root for the underdog.

The idea the the peasant/bastard really is really a prince in disguise may be "cliche" to some people, but I'm perfectly okay with it. Sue me. Assuming R+L=J, it's not like Jon Snow is going from his self-imposed life sentence on the Wall right to the iron throne, but if he's the child of a prince it means he had to be lied to and likely will lead to him becoming bitter about the lie and question everything about what he's been raised to believe, at least for a while. It doesn't have to be the Disney version of "he/they lived happily ever after".

[Été]

The clichés become clichés in the first place because they work, they're satisfying storylines, that's why they come up again and again. ASOIAF has so many characters and subplots that most of them have probably been done before somewhere, but as long as they're done well that's perfectly fine.

Apologies if this has been mentioned already, but the choice of words in this quote struck me as very interesting.

-(From the SSM section of the site)-

This third Targaryen might very well be -not- a Targaryen, to quote his exact words... "Three heads of the dragon... yes... but the third will not nessesarily BE a Targaryen..."

--

Seems to me that the quote assumes that there will be two Targaryens in the mix. With how GRRM is about wording that seems like an awfully large flashing sign.

That quote's always surprised me: it means there's another Targaryen out there for sure besides Dany, which seems like a pretty big admission! Time gaps notwithstanding, who are the options?

• Stannis - unlikely to honour a Targaryen claim now he thinks he's Azor Ahai
  
• Shireen - most likely headed for the bonfire in the near future
  
• ?Jon - if R+L really =J
  
• ?Tyrion - if Aerys really is his dad
  
• ?Baby Aegon - if he's really out there somewhere

Have I forgotten anyone hideously obvious?

[Salome the Persian Witch]

The Golden Company (founded by Bittersteel a century earlier) may have a few contenders. They were legitimized Targ bastards who started the Blackfyre rebellion and were exiled - but that means there may be someone(s) from the Targ bloodlines.

[Masha]

The clichés become clichés in the first place because they work, they're satisfying storylines, that's why they come up again and again. ASOIAF has so many characters and subplots that most of them have probably been done before somewhere, but as long as they're done well that's perfectly fine.

That quote's always surprised me: it means there's another Targaryen out there for sure besides Dany, which seems like a pretty big admission! Time gaps notwithstanding, who are the options?

• Stannis - unlikely to honour a Targaryen claim now he thinks he's Azor Ahai
• Shireen - most likely headed for the bonfire in the near future
• ?Jon - if R+L really =J
• ?Tyrion - if Aerys really is his dad
• ?Baby Aegon - if he's really out there somewhere

Have I forgotten anyone hideously obvious?

You forgot - whats his name Waters that Cersei was so hot for. He might be a Targ.

also, I am quite surprised that while everyone assumes Tyrion is Aeris's bastard, while nobody considered Cersei and Jaime being Aeris' kids. Just because Tyrion is deformed doesn't imply Targ link, everyone (other than Tywin) acknolwedges his as Tyrion son, at very least mentally. While Cersei, especially in AFFC hints a lot on Aeris, hints of his madness come up in her very vividly, obsession with fire, etc, plus whole insest thing, way too Targ for me. There are just too many similarities between Twins and Aeris. Wouldn't that be a height of irony that the children Tyrion was so proud of, so beautiful and strong were Aeris', while Tyrion, the son he hated and refused to acknolwedge and in the end killed him, is his true son. I am firmly convinced that Tyrion is Tywin's son, while Cersei & Jaime are most likely candidates of Lannisters to be Aeris' bastards. (I still not sure about Joanna and Aeris' theories whether love or rape)

[Yarl Snow]

You forgot - whats his name Waters that Cersei was so hot for. He might be a Targ.

also, I am quite surprised that while everyone assumes Tyrion is Aeris's bastard, while nobody considered Cersei and Jaime being Aeris' kids. Just because Tyrion is deformed doesn't imply Targ link, everyone (other than Tywin) acknolwedges his as Tyrion son, at very least mentally. While Cersei, especially in AFFC hints a lot on Aeris, hints of his madness come up in her very vividly, obsession with fire, etc, plus whole insest thing, way too Targ for me. There are just too many similarities between Twins and Aeris. Wouldn't that be a height of irony that the children Tyrion was so proud of, so beautiful and strong were Aeris', while Tyrion, the son he hated and refused to acknolwedge and in the end killed him, is his true son. I am firmly convinced that Tyrion is Tywin's son, while Cersei & Jaime are most likely candidates of Lannisters to be Aeris' bastards. (I still not sure about Joanna and Aeris' theories whether love or rape)

Aurane Waters.

We will soon see if Tyrion is Targ or not. On July 12th, Tyrion will most likely meet up with Daenerys and get sniffed by her dragons.

I've started to try to view people through the Targaryen-filter, after reading the Dunk and Egg novellas. There seems to be some classic Targaryen personalities that GRRM uses, that sometimes fits other characters. For instance:

Promising and honorable leader

Rhaegar, Baelor Breakspear, Dany (?)

Pretty darn loopy and cruel

Joffrey, Aerys, Aerion, Cersei

Sly and sarcastic

Bloodraven, Tyrion

[starki]

If Jon did end up leaving the Wall later in the series, who's to say it would necessarily be of his own volition? We already know the Targaryens were polygamous, so if Jon turned out to be Rhaegar's legitimate heir he'd be hot property (or kindling at least, if Melisande got involved).

The only person who definitely knows is Howland Reed. Bran's fate is already bound up with that of Reed's kids so the revelation could come through his story. But there are a few more logical possibilities.

Aerys' Kingsguard, for starters, of whom only Barristan Selmy and Jaime Lannister are still alive. With three of them at the Tower of Joy, some of the others might've known what was happening there. Jaime was a new recruit at the time and a Lannister to boot, but Barristan was a trusted veteran so could have been in the hypothetical inner circle.

Then there are the Daynes. We know Eddard Stark spent time at Starfall after the Tower of Joy, and I doubt he would have concocted the story about Wylla without the Daynes' collusion. I have no idea why they'd help the man who killed Arthur Dayne, but if R+L=J is in fact the case I expect a big chunk of the story to come from the Daynes - not least the details of what happened to Lyanna in the time between her disappearance and death.

Also purely speculative, Maester Aemon could be in the know. Targaryens do take their lineage seriously. Just a few thoughts.

Howland Reed is the only one that knows. He is the only survivor of the events at the Tower of Joy, along with Ned Stark.

Barristan Selmy doesn't know or he'd say something to Daenerys by now (along the lines of "whoops, I almost forgot: there is a male heir to the throne. Sorry, you'll never rule the Seven Kingdoms").

Jaime doesn't know - why would Ned or Reed tell this to the Lannisters who betrayed the Targaryen royal line ? Master Aemon doesn't know. He'd tell Jon.

And with Jon being elected Captain of the Watch in the third book, there's now even less chance he's going anywhere. And lastly...why didn't Ned say anything to Jon, if not earlier when young master Snow decided to go on the Wall ?

[Yarl Snow]

Howland Reed is the only one that knows.

Correction: He is the only first hand witness that we know of. He might have told other people, and there might have been someone else present at ToJ that was never mentioned, such as Wylla. I also believe that Jon's fate is from now on tied to the Night's Watch.

[Bajaz]

First of all,Barristan didnt have time to tell Daenerys anything because after he reveal his true identity he was send into sewers.

After his return,if I remember he say to her>if you cant handle the truth dont ask me.

She replies> ok we will talk later.

And for the end,how he can know if Jon is still alive?

Cmon he would tell her already if he knows...:)