Harry Potter and The Methods of Rationality

[Sci-2]

Exposing Harry Potter plot holes through dialogue? Sounds like something that would be better done with an essay.

It starts off with a little friendly ribbing, then moves onto its own plot. I have to say I'm pretty invested in the characters myself - first novel of 2011 to really grab my attention. But then White Luck Warrior isn't available in the US quite yet...

[Galleymac]

The author definitely has an agenda, and seventy chapters in we are still in Harry's first year at Hogwarts. What saves it is that Genius Harry, while trained by geniuses, is still an 11-year-old who is learning, and sometimes gets the rationality quite backwards. That and Less Wrong is a genuinely funny writer -- and lets himself explore other characters' points of view. I've been enjoying it immensely for a while now.

But yes, agenda. The writer is trying to Teach You Something. I think what contributes to my enjoyment is that I've been following it along as it's written, so there are built in breaks, rather than seventy chapters of it at one fell swoop. (Its TVTropes page is also very amusing.)

Whoa, I just delurked.

[Cantabile]

Is there such thing as an author without an agenda? Why else choose to publish one's work to the world, if not to share their ideas? Whether or not that agenda is a simple "gives readers an escapist fantasy experience" or a more complex exploration of an ideolgy, or concept, seems irrelevant. One can deconstruct the writer's agenda, and argue against it, but the fact that there is some sort of agenda is self-evident; is a human action without an agenda, be it conscious or sub-conscious, even possible?

[Sci-2]

Is there such thing as an author without an agenda? Why else choose to publish one's work to the world, if not to share their ideas? Whether or not that agenda is a simple "gives readers an escapist fantasy experience" or a more complex exploration of an ideolgy, or concept, seems irrelevant. One can deconstruct the writer's agenda, and argue against it, but the fact that there is some sort of agenda is self-evident; is a human action without an agenda, be it conscious or sub-conscious, even possible?

I think the thing about this particular piece is that the agenda is very overt. He is trying to tell us something about the rationalist way of seeing the world, which the author clearly believes is the right one. I mean, I like it and am having fun with it, but I can seeing others feeling like he is brow beating.

[afterroots]

I think one of the authors crowning achievements is writing genius characters that are actually somewhat believable. Whenever Harry or Quirrel makes a brilliant deduction you usually get their complete line of thought of how they actually went about it and ditto for when they form some complex plan or solve a complex problem.

[Galleymac]

Is there such thing as an author without an agenda? Why else choose to publish one's work to the world, if not to share their ideas? Whether or not that agenda is a simple "gives readers an escapist fantasy experience" or a more complex exploration of an ideolgy, or concept, seems irrelevant. One can deconstruct the writer's agenda, and argue against it, but the fact that there is some sort of agenda is self-evident; is a human action without an agenda, be it conscious or sub-conscious, even possible?

Sorry-- I'm not the most direct of speakers. I don't think I was clear. Obviously everyone has some sort of world view which will color their life, work, writing, whatever. I was trying to point out that the purpose of this story, while entertaining (to me) and hilarious (to me) is not merely to divert, but to teach very specific lessons. These lessons are clearly outlined in the Author's Notes and on Less Wrong's personal website. He has a way of thinking, and he wants to win his readers over to it, in a much wider context than Harry Potter. Often he even uses the principles he espouses as chapter titles and the chapter will demonstrate that principle.

This is not a problem for me personally; as I said, I like the piece. But one of the goals of this thread seemed (to me) to be sort of publicizing the story to people who have not read it. So I felt that prospective readers might want to know this aspect of the story in deciding if it's their cup of tea-- it's not everyone's. A few people seemed to be shying away from this "takedown of Harry Potter " -- I want to acknowledge that they're not wrong, that that's a strong and unsubtle motivation, but I also want to point out that the story is still full of heart and humor, and some very evocative passages, so they shouldn't let a bit of preachy drive them away.

[Gaston de Foix]

In honesty, I enjoyed it very much at the start, but as it wore on, less so for the following reason. All the other characters with the possible exception of Dumbledore and Quirrell seem to have been reduced to ciphers. For me the scene in which Harry is in Dumbledore's office and Snape has essentially lost all agency and is just giggling in his seat is just silly. The whole idea of good fanfic, IMO, is to take known, loved characters and play with them in different settings. While the premise is interesting and the writing consistently good, the plot is sufficiently bad that I would warn readers away....I read a bit of the chapters close to the end, nothing there to make me revise my judgment of the novel.

[afterroots]

Well Hermoine certainly gains agency as the story progresses, especially in the last 5 or 6 chapters.

[Galleymac]

Oh-- I also liked a lot of the meta. I cracked up over the bit where

Harry, who has read Ender's Game, teaches his team to fight in zero-g, in the game the story uses to replace Quidditch.

[Mad Scientist]

Thanks for pointing out. I have read only the first few sentences, but it sounds (well, reads) like something I'll enjoy.

[Sci-2]

In honesty, I enjoyed it very much at the start, but as it wore on, less so for the following reason. All the other characters with the possible exception of Dumbledore and Quirrell seem to have been reduced to ciphers. For me the scene in which Harry is in Dumbledore's office and Snape has essentially lost all agency and is just giggling in his seat is just silly. The whole idea of good fanfic, IMO, is to take known, loved characters and play with them in different settings. While the premise is interesting and the writing consistently good, the plot is sufficiently bad that I would warn readers away....I read a bit of the chapters close to the end, nothing there to make me revise my judgment of the novel.

I like Minerva and Hermione, not sure how they are ciphers. Admittedly, there is a Plato's dialogue thing going on with Draco - the setting up of straw men to take down. I think that this is meant for adults makes the stakes seem higher. He's standing on Rowling's shoulders, as he acknowledges, but the level at which examines her world (plus the intrigue) fascinates me.

[Eponine]

Its like PON in the way that its rather condescending and destroys one's love of the fantasy genre?

I do truly love you, Datepalm.

It's a good thing to read while taking a break from working since it doesn't demand too much attention at a time - I do like the writing style and think that pseudo-Platonic dialogs work well if there are multiple convincing POVs, but that HP were a real life 10 year old, he needs a good beatdown. (Disclaimer: I do not condone beating real actual children).

I take it that the author wasn't adopted. Never heard anyone use the word "genetic" so much.

ETA: I have some serious skepticism about anyone who seems impressed with Godel, Escher, Bach.

[ríomhaire]

I got this text from my flatmate at 4.53 am last night:

"Please stop laughing out so loud, tvit'sGone twenty past4!"

This fan fic has successfully ruined my relationship with one of the people I live with. Well played.

[Darzin]

Yeah I read it and really liked it Harry-Kellhus is pretty awesome and the taking apart a magical world with scientific thinking was interesting. I also like the references there was some monty python quotes used in Chaos legion and there other fantasy character references such as Dorotea Senjak (the Lady from the Black Company), and Lord Foul was mentioned too. A very solid fan-fic and much better than the original Harry Potter.

[TeaSpoon]

This is freaking awesome. I didn't think it would be, but it is. Thank you for recommending it to me. It's better than a large percentage of the books I've read by published authors.

[The Imp's Advocate]

It's a good thing to read while taking a break from working since it doesn't demand too much attention at a time - I do like the writing style and think that pseudo-Platonic dialogs work well if there are multiple convincing POVs, but that HP were a real life 10 year old, he needs a good beatdown. (Disclaimer: I do not condone beating real actual children).

:agree:

I know he is an asberger-esque kid, and probably joking, but jeez, Harry needs to take to heart some of the things he has no doubt read about heuristics.

For example, saying ""I have no logical way of knowing that for certain. My parents raised me to believe that I was Harry Potter, and many people here have told me that I look like my parents, I mean my other parents, but," Harry frowned, realizing, "for all I know, there could easily be spells to polymorph a child into a specified appearance -""

to a simple query of "are you Harry Potter?" is not a good way to interact with people. Sometimes the precise answer isn't the best one.

Important part of his character, I know, but it bugs the crap out of me.

[Nerdanel]

I'd heard about this story before, but this thread got me to actually read it. It's really quite good.

One little thing really bothers me though: In the story the magic gene is autosomal recessive when I think it really should be autosomal dominant. I know this may sound like a little thing, but it has profound effects on wizard society.

[felice]

How would you get muggleborns if the magic gene was dominant?

Thanks for the rec, afterroots - I've finally finished reading all 71 chapters to date, and it's great!

[AverageGuy]

How would you get muggleborns if the magic gene was dominant?

What's the difference between a Squib and a Muggle? I get that one has wizard parents, but is there a way to tell the difference?

[Nerdanel]

How would you get muggleborns if the magic gene was dominant?

Mutants. And secret affairs with wizards, with magical mind control or otherwise.

The thing is, muggles by far outnumber the wizards. That means that even when it's very rare for a muggleborn wizard to pop up, you still get a lot of them relative to the native wizard population. Meanwhile if the magic gene was recessive, squibs shouldn't be born to a wizard family except in extremely rare circumstances. It would be practically an admission of adultery with a muggle for the mother, and you'd except everyone to have figured that out by now.

But with the magic being dominant, you'd get natural squibs in non-pureblood wizard families. Even without genetics, people would notice that mixing with muggles leads to squibs down the line, and that's how you get the blood purists.