my brother's read the first book

[dcon]

Sheltered? Sheltered?

This man's father was cooked to death alive and his brother strangled. His sister disappeared and died. This man went to war to keep himself alive. He ruled the Northern lords - men like Roose Bolton, who apparently flay their opponents, and the Umbers, and others. This guy is so cool that he personally beheads criminals. Yet somehow, he thinks its a good idea to 1) tell Cersei his plans after he thinks she killed the last Hand to keep her secret; 2) not pack her and her children onto a boat immediately thereafter; 3) refuse Renly's offer of assistance.

Ned is either a fantasy character or suffering from early onset of dementia or both.

He should have known better than to leave her under the guardianship of a woman who gets so falling down drunk that the Hound walks her back to her room, and he should have had the same conversation with her that he had with Arya. Parenting FAIL.

His family was killed by a mad King what, 15 years ago? He went to war, then went right back to Winterfell. Guy is stupid in a lot of ways, but dealing with that and some of his bannerman =/= being able to handle the political climate of King's Landing. In the evils of the world he isn't sheltered but in the politics of King's Landing and "the game," he is sheltered.

And it's because of this that he gives Sansa over to the Septa, thinking nothing of it. And why should he? She'd been with the family for so long, he had no reason to suspect anything. Or is there some passage where Ned questions the Septa but puts Sansa in her care anyway?

[Brother Wolf]

I really despised Sansa my first time through the books (on my third trip now), but I had a minor revelation yesterday as to the root cause of my outrage toward her. She acts exactly like I'd expect a pre-teen/teenaged girl would act. And why would I hate her for it? Because this is a fantasy series and the Starks are the "good guys" and good guys in typical fantasy series are always supposed to be larger than life, do the unexpected, and always go above and beyond. I expected the good guys in these books to act like that - to always act to some sort of higher standard of intelligence and/or action. But that's not fair to the character - she's 11. Why should I hold it against her that her head in in the clouds with dreams of knights and princes? Why should I expect her to fudge the truth at "the trial" over the Joffrey/Mycah incident? She's terrified - she probably thought that by not implicating anyone, the whole thing would blow over (and it almost worked). What teenager (boy or girl) doesn't tend to blame siblings for misfortunes? So, beginning with this epiphany, I find that I am sympathizing a little bit more with Sansa, especially as her story progresses.

The only problem with my realization is that now I'm going to have to re-examine my distaste for Cat. Dammit.

[Swordfish]

She had already given her testimony (such as it was). Cersei demanding wolf blood and Robert granting it was sort of a viscious afterthought. Both girls were screaming and crying that Lady had no part in it, that she was innocent. Robert was done, and not going to change his mind whatever they said. It wasn't about what was right or rational at this point.

Oh you may well be right about whether it would've helped or not. I'm not arguing that it would have mattered, just that she would have done it.

[Brother Wolf]

And it's because of this that he gives Sansa over to the Septa, thinking nothing of it. And why should he? She'd been with the family for so long, he had no reason to suspect anything. Or is there some passage where Ned questions the Septa but puts Sansa in her care anyway?

I have to agree. Besides, in this culture, was it expected that the father would raise the daughters? Seems to me that the father's job was to make men of the sons, and it fell to the mothers to raise the daughters.

[Elrick]

I like the guys that people on here don't stand it seems. For example I like Catelyn and I love Sansa as well as Arya as well as most of the male characters like Jon Snow but I dislike Dany and have been accused of being sexist for it. Mainly because Jon is supposedly about realistic as Dany but I don't dislike characters for whether they are 'realistic' or not. Its the personality behind Dany I can't stand. She's annoying with her rants about how she feel she's entitled to everything just because she's a Targ which is pretty much why I dislike Stannis as much as I do because he feels the same way. Jon along with the other characters that I like on the other don't have this sense of entitlement.

Theon was another character I absolutely loathed even more than Dany because she had her moments of doing the right thing. Frankly Theon is way more despicable than Catelyn yet many on here seem to like him more than Cat which I guess I will never figure out.

[Alexia]

And it's because of this that he gives Sansa over to the Septa, thinking nothing of it. And why should he? She'd been with the family for so long, he had no reason to suspect anything. Or is there some passage where Ned questions the Septa but puts Sansa in her care anyway?

The septa was so drunk at a feast that she fell asleep on the table in public. Sansa was terrified by having the Hound escort her and was poking at her trying to wake her up. Contrast this scene to Margaery Tyrell's retinue of women - family members, septas, and the like. Like it or not, Ned is responsible for his poor choice of a guardian for his daughters. Septa Mordane should have been teaching the girls how to handle themselves at court, and giving Sansa advice on how to deal with Joffrey and Cersei and fam.

And if he wanted Catelyn to raise his daughters so he didn't have to do so, it might have been wise to leave his daughters in Winterfell or take Catelyn with. That doesn't wash as an excuse.

[dcon]

The septa was so drunk at a feast that she fell asleep on the table in public. Sansa was terrified by having the Hound escort her and was poking at her trying to wake her up. Contrast this scene to Margaery Tyrell's retinue of women - family members, septas, and the like. Like it or not, Ned is responsible for his poor choice of a guardian for his daughters. Septa Mordane should have been teaching the girls how to handle themselves at court, and giving Sansa advice on how to deal with Joffrey and Cersei and fam.

Did Ned know she was going to get drunk and pass out? Did we see this as a recurring theme with the Septa? I imagine if she were a bad guardian Ned would have gotten rid of her a long time ago.

[Alexia]

Did Ned know she was going to get drunk and pass out? Did we see this as a recurring theme with the Septa? I imagine if she were a bad guardian Ned would have gotten rid of her a long time ago.

On what grounds do you imagine that? She was an especially lousy guardian with regards to Arya with absolutely no control over her whatsoever and he still kept her on. Her actions with Sansa seem to fit an overall pattern - I don't believe it is an isolated event.

[Errant Bard]

If she is a Stark then I think we can assume Ned taught her honor and what that meant along with the rest of his children. I don't think we need to see an actual quote

What does honour mean, by the way?

Is it to lie to your king for years, like, you know, Ned does? Or maybe it is to follow orders you patently know to be wrong and unjust, killing some wolf in the process? Maybe it is lying to your wife and children and putting them in danger for decades?

Oh, I know, it's to break your oath and marry another girl than the one you were pledged to, as Robb shows.

Oh, no, it's perhaps, more likely, to break ties with your family, send it into civil war, just to elope with your prince, like Lyanna does.

Heh, maybe it's lying about your abilities and claiming to not remember, when you actually do (because you're, you know, scared), like Bran does.

Or is it to send one own's wolf on friends and allies, like Rickon?

If Ned ever taught them "honour" as you mean it, he's a real bad teacher.

Why would you assume that being lord of Winterfell makes someone capable of thriving in King's landing? I think we can all agree he had no idea what he was walking in to, and being sheltered in the North wouldn't make him able to handle it. Your analogy is garbage.

Because, somehow, Sansa, a 11 year old girl fed on fairy tales, is supposed to be more prepared to courtly pressures, emotional blackmail, flings, lies and betrayals than the man who saw the Lannisters betray the last king, who actually goes south because he thinks there's a conspiracy, and who refuses to actually let Sansa see any serious court proceeding?

I think we can all agree your assessment of Ned is garbage.

[Lord Godric]

The septa was so drunk at a feast that she fell asleep on the table in public.

Sorry but that is such a stretch to rationalize your point that it is almost laughable. I am sure the Septa didn't get drunk often, and getting drunk once at a celebratory feast does not make an alcoholic.

[Brother Wolf]

The septa was so drunk at a feast that she fell asleep on the table in public. Sansa was terrified by having the Hound escort her and was poking at her trying to wake her up. Contrast this scene to Margaery Tyrell's retinue of women - family members, septas, and the like. Like it or not, Ned is responsible for his poor choice of a guardian for his daughters. Septa Mordane should have been teaching the girls how to handle themselves at court, and giving Sansa advice on how to deal with Joffrey and Cersei and fam.

And if he wanted Catelyn to raise his daughters so he didn't have to do so, it might have been wise to leave his daughters in Winterfell or take Catelyn with. That doesn't wash as an excuse.

You make some good points, but if Ned left the job of raising the daughters to Catelyn, then it's Catelyn who made the poor choice of Septa Mordane. I will grant you that Ned didn't question the situation of his daughters' "guardian" once he got to King's Landing.

Ned had to take Sansa with him given the impending betrothal to Joffrey, and he had to leave Catelyn in Winterfell so Robb wasn't trying to run the place on his own at age 15.

[inkasrain]

I don't have any problem with Ned entrusting Sansa's supervision to Septa Mordane-- presumably both he and Catelyn had reason to feel she was responsible and trustworthy. The problem is that Ned entrusts Sansa entirely to the Septa's care once they leave Winterfell, and gives her very little of the personal attention with which he treats Arya. Ned knows how to interact with a child like Arya, who we've heard is very much like Lyanna, but he seems to be at something of a loss with Sansa, and doesn't make much effort to rectify that.

[Lord Godric]

On what grounds do you imagine that? She was an especially lousy guardian with regards to Arya with absolutely no control over her whatsoever and he still kept her on. Her actions with Sansa seem to fit an overall pattern - I don't believe it is an isolated event.

There is no canon evidence to suggest otherwise, unless I am forgetting something.

Using that logic Ned was also a horrible guardian. As was Catelyn. Neither of them could control Arya, and obviously Ned didn't keep good tabs on Sansa. How else could she slip off to tell Cersei all Ned's plans.

They're all negligent drunks who can't look after a 12 year old girl. Someone call the Child Protective Services.

[Valmy]

Sorry but that is such a stretch to rationalize your point that it is almost laughable. I am sure the Septa didn't get drunk often, and getting drunk once at a celebratory feast does not make an alcoholic.

Yeah I just figured she got drunk because that was what one did at a feast like that.

[Alexia]

Using that logic Ned was also a horrible guardian. As was Catelyn. Neither of them could control Arya, and obviously Ned didn't keep good tabs on Sansa.

I've already made my point about Ned/Sansa (he doesn't even try) but Ned and Catelyn did indeed have a significantly better relationship with Arya than Septa Mordane did. For example, Arya felt pretty bad when her mother showed up alongside Septa Mordane to scold her after the incident with Princess Myrcella, and Arya seems to have a great deal of respect for her father.

I wasn't aware that Ned/Catelyn were drunks.

Yeah I just figured she got drunk because that was what one did at a feast like that.

When she was supposed to be watching over a child? And who else at the feasts did that (except Robert)? To pose a question, how would you respond if you hired a babysitter for your child and the babysitter became passed out drunk and other adults ended up taking care of your child?

[Lord Godric]

When she was supposed to be watching over a child? And who else at the feasts did that (except Robert)? To pose a question, how would you respond if you hired a babysitter for your child and the babysitter became passed out drunk and other adults ended up taking care of your child?

Again, laughable. To pose the question who else gets drunk at a feast is just ignoring the reality of the setting. There are better ways to make your point than to say that because Septa Mordane got drunk once she is a bad caretaker.

[mormont]

Sansa is not to blame for Lady's death, but I know plenty of people, myself included, do not feel sympathy for her in the situation. Yes, Sansa was scared but she could have told the truth about what happened, she didn't. Saying she didn't remember was a lie, scared by the formal trial or not, Sansa lied about her memory of the events. Probably to placate the Queen and her betrothed. While this is not the cause of Lady's death, Cersei's accusation and Robert's incompetence are, I just can't muster up any sympathy for Sansa. I can not help but wonder if maybe she sided with her sister instead of passively siding with the Lannisters, if Robert would have shot down Cersei's suggestion that the direwolf need be killed. But we'll never know.

I know this doesn't relate to the books, but I have read many opinions of non-book readers about Lady's death from the latest episode, "The Kingsroad," and most people seemed to think that Sansa got what was coming to her for not siding with her family. *shrug*

I think this illustrates the point rather well: narratively, we're conditioned to expect that Sansa will tell the truth in this situation. She's one of the good guys, and we've all seen a thousand stories where the heroes prove their moral worth by nobly standing up and telling the truth in public regardless of the personal consequences. So much so, that when this doesn't happen we demand authorial punishment. And we get it: instant karma!

(Ironically, of course, it's our love of stories that's to blame for this. When we do this, we're being just as bad as Sansa.)

But this is a rather superficial reading, and when we look at it in more detail, we can see that there's more to it than meets the eye at first. How did that situation get set up? Could it have been avoided by the adults handling things better? Could it have been defused by the adults? Key to this is Robert's later admission to Ned that he hadn't believed Joff anyway, even without Sansa's testimony. But he too opted to duck out of the confrontation. Robert, the king, the peerless warrior, the hero of the trident, does pretty much the same as Sansa. He chickens out.

ETA - on Septa Mordane, I always got the feeling that she too has some trouble adapting to life in the big city, and that this is the reason she gets drunk at the feast...

[amore]

We seem to be going in circles here debating who is to blame for Sansa being woefully unprepared for the political life of Kings Landing. Personally I go with the parents. Sansa was close to marriagable age and should have been prepared for a life on her own away from the family in a high court setting. Surely nobody is going to suggest that they have succeeded in this task?

Secondly Ned has utterly failed to keep his two daughters safe in Kings Landing despite knowing the level of intrigue going on. They should have been chaperoned everywhere or even better kept secure in the family chambers where they could be observed. As a parent would you leave such young girls running around free when all hell could break lose at any moment?

Third - Sansa is eleven years old for flips sake. Her character is a normal yet naive girl representative of her age. She only looks so bad because the author bigs up Arya and Dany. In effect Sansa is the fall guy strategically placed to make Arya and Dany look stong and capable in comparison. Nothing she has done though is worthy of contempt or hatred and I still maintain that to expect and eleven year old girl to have done better under those circumstances is unreasonable. Sansa is arguably the most realistic character portrayed in the early books.

[Valmy]

Secondly Ned has utterly failed to keep his two daughters safe in Kings Landing despite knowing the level of intrigue going on. They should have been chaperoned everywhere or even better kept secure in the family chambers where they could be observed. As a parent would you leave such young girls running around free when all hell could break lose at any moment?

I especially liked how he was preparing to send his girls and Jeyne away but those plans got delayed...by him getting attacked on the streets. One would think his followers would have expedited those plans not put them on the backburner. But again you just sort of have to go with it. If Ned doesn't die, Sansa doesn't up a prisoner, and Arya not escape large chunks of the story does not happen.

[amore]

I especially liked how he was preparing to send his girls and Jeyne away but those plans got delayed...by him getting attacked on the streets. One would think his followers would have expedited those plans not put them on the backburner. But again you just sort of have to go with it. If Ned doesn't die, Sansa doesn't up a prisoner, and Arya not escape large chunks of the story does not happen.

Exactly! The attack on him was the final sign he needed to realise that he needed to get his girls out of there and not delay for a minute.

But like you say, it was necessary for the story development that this doesn't happen.

Why then don't more people realise that the whole point of Sansa's character is that she is the insecure, vulnerable captive who has to learn to develop a backbone and political skills the hard way. She is the lamb who grows into a lion ... maybe! :)