The R+L=J thread, part XI

[LadyMary]

I am new to this thread but one obvious problem with the R+L theory is that Jon has the blackest hair in the Stark family. One would figure if he was half Targarian he might not be blond.... but why would his hair be as dark as King Robert's?

I think it may be a visual thing with Kit Harington who's hair looks almost black ont he TV, but in the books Jon's hair isn't described as black, he is described as having darker "Stark" looks than his mostly auburn haired, more Tully-like half-siblings...except Arya who of Catelyn's children is the only one who favors her father's coloring and the closest to Jon. And Arya is said to resemble Lyanna in looks and personality. Lyanna was every bit as much as Stark as Ned.

It seems perfectly likely that dark Stark coloring is dominant over recessive silver-gold Targaryen hair coloring which is apparently best preserved through inbreeding. As others have pointed out repeatedly, there are numerous Targaryens who have dark hair and eye colors other than various shades of purple. One of Rhaegar's other children had her mother's darker coloring.

[Maestress Sand]

Since I have some basic medical training, I just wanted to confirm the basics of the hair genetics spelled out earlier (although it really is slightly more complicated than just BB vs Bb vs bb - the basic premise definitely still holds) and the rampant death from childbirth in the pre-antibiotic era.

[metr0man]

Having followed this theory for the past few months, I am firmly in the R+L=J camp.

There are the obvious story hints:

The "bed of blood" + the presence of the Kings Guard when Ned rescues Lyanna HEAVILY implies Lyanna giving birth to Rhaegar's child.

Plus the fact that Ned refuses to say who Jon's mother is, has given conflicting stories about her + the vague enough "of my blood" reference to Jon in his POVs... + the huge motive of Robert wanting to murder every kid with Targarayan Blood...

It all fits really neatly. In fact when you suss it out, it's SO NEAT that you wonder if it isn't a gigantic red herring. But it's definately not "reading into" idle speculation. GRRM was clearly laying down SOME pipe vis a vis what REALLY happened with Lyanna + Jon's parentage in Book 1. If not R+L=J, then something else.

The other reason I think it's true is more thematic:

ASOIAF was supposed to be a trilogy when he started writing AGOT, so it wasn't going to be this decades long mystery... the title "A Song of Ice and Fire" was supposed to have more immediate relevance from Book 1, where Jon and the R/L backstory mysteries were really laid down. Restating the obvious here, but Ice = (Lyanna) Stark, Fire = (Rheagar) Targaryan... "Song" = the forbidden love of Lyanna and Rheagar... a story twisted into "Rheagar kidnaps and rapes Lyanna" by people who just couldn't believe it to be true (Robert, for instance). Jon literally IS the Song of Ice and Fire. Remember, I'm sure Dany was supposed to be back in Westeros in Book 2 or 3 of the original trilogy, and she's a Targ and I'm sure the whole thing would have been addressed.

It's just GRRM got so caught up in the War of Kings, that the whole story has stretched out, and now the whole mystery doesn't seem as relevant to the main story. Here's hoping DWD finally pushes the story past the local geopolitical war and back to the mythic overtones.

[Popgun]

How could they hide several months of Lyanna's pregnancy with only a small handful of people knowing and keeping it a secret. So let's assume they were in an obscure location and Lyanna just stayed hidden in a room the entire time.

What about Wylla then? If Ned didn't knock her up then who did? She obviously had to have had a child if she was breastfeeding Jon. So if R+L=J was managed to be hidden from all the birds and spies in Westeros how was Wylla able to effectively fake a relatinship with Ned? Surely Varys or some other spider would seek some information on the woman who managed break through Ned Stark's honor.

So even if Lyanna's pregnancy was able to be hidden from many prying eyes, you are also assuming that Wylla got knocked up by someone who wasn't Ned, have the baby without any birds questioning whether it was Ned's or not plus be able to fake a previous union with Ned.

It just doesn't add up. I know people will say well Jon shared Wylla's breasts with a milk brother and that was actually Wylla's baby. Well if they faked that then people would still want to know where this milk brother came from so then the conspiracy widens even further because people would want to know where that baby came from. And so on and so on.

As for the three kingsguard. Why would they be there to defend a bastard of Rhaegars when Rhaegar already had legitimate heirs? I think it was a case of Rhaegar hiding out in ToJ. He realises he has to leave for war and can't take Lyanna with him. He doesn't want to risk her escaping or being whisked away. He has few men with him so he leaves as good of a guard as he can to keep Lyanna trapped in the tower.

R+L=J is just way too much of a hidden consqiracy theory for this story it's more befitting to something like Lost or X-files. I could go on with more points against it but this post has already become quite long so I'll save them for another time.

[Dragonfish]

What about Wylla then? If Ned didn't knock her up then who did? She obviously had to have had a child if she was breastfeeding Jon. So if R+L=J was managed to be hidden from all the birds and spies in Westeros how was Wylla able to effectively fake a relatinship with Ned? Surely Varys or some other spider would seek some information on the woman who managed break through Ned Stark's honor.

So even if Lyanna's pregnancy was able to be hidden from many prying eyes, you are also assuming that Wylla got knocked up by someone who wasn't Ned, have the baby without any birds questioning whether it was Ned's or not plus be able to fake a previous union with Ned.

It just doesn't add up. I know people will say well Jon shared Wylla's breasts with a milk brother and that was actually Wylla's baby. Well if they faked that then people would still want to know where this milk brother came from so then the conspiracy widens even further because people would want to know where that baby came from. And so on and so on.

Women are capable of lactating long after having a baby. I'm not sure exactly how it works, I think there has to be regular breast suckling or something like that. Perhaps some of the more knowledgeable board members could explain this better than me.

In any event, Wylla could easily have had a child years earlier and still be lactating by the time Jon was born. There's no need to explain a "second baby" here.

As for the three kingsguard. Why would they be there to defend a bastard of Rhaegars when Rhaegar already had legitimate heirs? I think it was a case of Rhaegar hiding out in ToJ. He realises he has to leave for war and can't take Lyanna with him. He doesn't want to risk her escaping or being whisked away. He has few men with him so he leaves as good of a guard as he can to keep Lyanna trapped in the tower.

Targs have a history of polygamy, so Rhaegar and Lyanna could actually have been married, and Jon could have been a legitimate heir. That's one possible reason why the Kingsguard were there.

Of course, it's also possible they were there simply because Rhaegar ordered them to stay. There's no real way of knowing until GRRM reveals it to us.

R+L=J is just way too much of a hidden consqiracy theory for this story it's more befitting to something like Lost or X-files. I could go on with more points against it but this post has already become quite long so I'll save them for another time.

There's no complicated conspiracy theory here. The only thing required to hide Jon's true parentage was one lie: Ned telling the world that he was his son. That's a pretty easy lie to keep when only two other people know about it (well, maybe two, we don't know the exact number of people who found Ned with Lyanna).

Just out of curiosity, have you by any chance read the following essays?

http://towerofthehand.com/essays/chrisholden/jon_snows_parents.html

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/Who_are_Jon_Snows_parents/

I think they do a pretty good job of laying out the evidence in favor of R+L=J. Apologies if you've read them already, just ignore them if you have.

[zmflavius]

R+L=J is just way too much of a hidden consqiracy theory for this story it's more befitting to something like Lost or X-files. I could go on with more points against it but this post has already become quite long so I'll save them for another time.

Putting aside the fact that...since when have these books been straight-out?

[SFDanny]

How could they hide several months of Lyanna's pregnancy with only a small handful of people knowing and keeping it a secret. So let's assume they were in an obscure location and Lyanna just stayed hidden in a room the entire time.

I'm not quite sure what the problem is here, but I'll take a stab at dealing with your concerns. Lyanna and Rhaegar disappear for well over a year until Ned arrives at the Tower of Joy and finds her dying (really only Lyanna for the whole of that period, as Rhaegar leaves her and goes back to King's Landing, but the point of the length or her disappearance remains.) During that time Brandon is taken, Rickard rides south, they are both killed, Aerys demands Ned's and Robert's heads, Jon Arryn raises his banners in revolt - starting a year long war of rebellion, and so on, and so on. So Lyanna is in hiding for all that time, and we know Jon is conceived about 3 to 4 months into the rebellion. Which means hiding the signs of Lyanna's possible pregnancy from the world doesn't start for quite some time into the war and is basically the same problem as hiding Lyanna. The only place we know that she was hiding was the Tower of Joy, which is described as a tower in the foothills of the Red Mountains of Dorne. It doesn't seem to an insurmountable problem to limit the number of people who see Lyanna in such a location. Nor would it seem to demand her being confined to a room for the entire time.

Now, what I don't understand is why this question isn't raised concerning the possibility of Ashara as Jon's mother. We know of no prolonged period in which Ashara disappears from public view. If she is Jon's mom, why doesn't someone remark on her pregnant state? No one does. Yet, as far as we know, she is seen publicly during the whole of this period.

[LadyMary]

Women are capable of lactating long after having a baby. I'm not sure exactly how it works, I think there has to be regular breast suckling or something like that. Perhaps some of the more knowledgeable board members could explain this better than me.

In any event, Wylla could easily have had a child years earlier and still be lactating by the time Jon was born. There's no need to explain a "second baby" here.

Speaking from personal experience, this is absolutely true. A woman can breastfeed for years after a baby is born. The more a baby nurses, the more milk is produced. A wet nurse could conceivably nurse several children over a period of years after her own was weaned. Also, a lot of babies died in childbirth or infancy. So it's possible that Wylla had a baby who was beyond the age of nursing, or a baby that died while she still had milk and she was able to nurse other babies. Incidentally, Lysa still nurses Robert in the books and he's 6 years old. It's way too long for a child to be nursing for social/cultural reasons (I mean, ew) but it's physically possible.

Targs have a history of polygamy, so Rhaegar and Lyanna could actually have been married, and Jon could have been a legitimate heir. That's one possible reason why the Kingsguard were there.

Of course, it's also possible they were there simply because Rhaegar ordered them to stay. There's no real way of knowing until GRRM reveals it to us.

I'm totally convinced that R+L=J, but I'm not convinced R+L were legally married. The Targs have a history of intermarriage but only polygamy with their own siblings, and even that was grandfathered by the Faith out of necessity. Having said that, if Rhaegar thought he needed three children to fulfill the prophesy, it didn't say they had to be trueborn children. If Rhaegar impressed upon the KG that his child with Lyanna was critical to saving the realm, he might have pursuaded them that it was most important for them to guard Lyanna and her child rather than return to Kings Landing. Plus, Arthur Dayne was one of Rhaegar's most trusted friends.

There's no complicated conspiracy theory here. The only thing required to hide Jon's true parentage was one lie: Ned telling the world that he was his son. That's a pretty easy lie to keep when only two other people know about it (well, maybe two, we don't know the exact number of people who found Ned with Lyanna).

Just out of curiosity, have you by any chance read the following essays?

http://towerofthehand.com/essays/chrisholden/jon_snows_parents.html

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/Who_are_Jon_Snows_parents/

I think they do a pretty good job of laying out the evidence in favor of R+L=J. Apologies if you've read them already, just ignore them if you have.

I agree. Those are excellent summaries of the theory with lots of good circumstantial evidence.

[Dragonfish]

I'm totally convinced that R+L=J, but I'm not convinced R+L were legally married. The Targs have a history of intermarriage but only polygamy with their own siblings, and even that was grandfathered by the Faith out of necessity. Having said that, if Rhaegar thought he needed three children to fulfill the prophesy, it didn't say they had to be trueborn children. If Rhaegar impressed upon the KG that his child with Lyanna was critical to saving the realm, he might have pursuaded them that it was most important for them to guard Lyanna and her child rather than return to Kings Landing. Plus, Arthur Dayne was one of Rhaegar's most trusted friends.

Well, I don't think it's necessarily true that Targ polygamy can only be done between Targs, I just think the only examples of Targ polygamy we have were practiced at a time when Targs were only marrying brother to sister. So it could just be historical coincidence.

Also, I think if Rhaegar wanted to revive the practice, he would have tried. We know that when he gets an idea in his head that he needs to do something, he just goes out and does it, as when he decided he needed to be a warrior. He also believed he had enough clout to depose Aerys, so who's to say he didn't believe he had enough clout to revive Targaryen polygamy?

That said, there is one problem with the theory that I have: who was the septon that married them? You'd think that whoever performed the ceremony would have eventually talked, and rumors would be flying around about Rhaegar and Lyanna's nuptials. But there don't seem to be any rumors to that effect, none that we've seen at least. Then again, maybe Rhaegar and Lyanna were married according to an Old Gods ceremony. Speaking of which, how exactly do followers of the Old Gods marry each other?

[LadyMary]

Well, I don't think it's necessarily true that Targ polygamy can only be done between Targs, I just think the only examples of Targ polygamy we have were practiced at a time when Targs were only marrying brother to sister. So it could just be historical coincidence.

Also, I think if Rhaegar wanted to revive the practice, he would have tried. We know that when he gets an idea in his head that he needs to do something, he just goes out and does it, as when he decided he needed to be a warrior. He also believed he had enough clout to depose Aerys, so who's to say he didn't believe he had enough clout to revive Targaryen polygamy?

That said, there is one problem with the theory that I have: who was the septon that married them? You'd think that whoever performed the ceremony would have eventually talked, and rumors would be flying around about Rhaegar and Lyanna's nuptials. But there don't seem to be any rumors to that effect, none that we've seen at least. Then again, maybe Rhaegar and Lyanna were married according to an Old Gods ceremony. Speaking of which, how exactly do followers of the Old Gods marry each other?

We'll just have to wait and see how the mystery of Jon's true parentage is revealed...

I've often wondered how the Northmen/women and worshippers of the Old Gods solemnized their vows. Maybe they said their vows in the Godswood before the Heart Tree. Certainly their must have been some kind of scribe and witnesses. I'm guessing Catelyn and Ned married in a Sept at Riverrun, because that was the bride's tradition, but it's doubtful that Mance Rayder's and wife had a formal ceremony. Yet Melisandre and Stannis seem to accept that Mance is a King and consider his dead wife a Queen and, apparently, his son a prince.

[Galen M]

Speaking from personal experience, this is absolutely true. A woman can breastfeed for years after a baby is born. The more a baby nurses, the more milk is produced. A wet nurse could conceivably nurse several children over a period of years after her own was weaned. Also, a lot of babies died in childbirth or infancy. So it's possible that Wylla had a baby who was beyond the age of nursing, or a baby that died while she still had milk and she was able to nurse other babies. Incidentally, Lysa still nurses Robert in the books and he's 6 years old. It's way too long for a child to be nursing for social/cultural reasons (I mean, ew) but it's physically possible.

We have no evidence that Lysa was producing milk, just that Robert was sucking on her breast for comfort.

[zmflavius]

We'll just have to wait and see how the mystery of Jon's true parentage is revealed...

I've often wondered how the Northmen/women and worshippers of the Old Gods solemnized their vows. Maybe they said their vows in the Godswood before the Heart Tree. Certainly their must have been some kind of scribe and witnesses. I'm guessing Catelyn and Ned married in a Sept at Riverrun, because that was the bride's tradition, but it's doubtful that Mance Rayder's and wife had a formal ceremony. Yet Melisandre and Stannis seem to accept that Mance is a King and consider his dead wife a Queen and, apparently, his son a prince.

We know very little about the religious customs of the Old Gods, so I don't think we can say.

That said, Melisandre and Stannis believe Mance's dead wife a queen, and his son a prince because he was King beyond the wall, and as they understood it, Mance was married to Dalla, and her son was Mance's heir.

[Songstress]

Arthur, whose lands were closer than either the Oldtown or Harrenhal, and who propably had the most trustworthy family, could send to Starfall for a wet nun when Lyannas pregnancy became obvious.

I'm sorry, I know this is a typo... but I'm finding it unreasonably hilarious right now.

[LadyMary]

Well, I don't think it's necessarily true that Targ polygamy can only be done between Targs, I just think the only examples of Targ polygamy we have were practiced at a time when Targs were only marrying brother to sister. So it could just be historical coincidence.

Also, I think if Rhaegar wanted to revive the practice, he would have tried. We know that when he gets an idea in his head that he needs to do something, he just goes out and does it, as when he decided he needed to be a warrior. He also believed he had enough clout to depose Aerys, so who's to say he didn't believe he had enough clout to revive Targaryen polygamy?

That said, there is one problem with the theory that I have: who was the septon that married them? You'd think that whoever performed the ceremony would have eventually talked, and rumors would be flying around about Rhaegar and Lyanna's nuptials. But there don't seem to be any rumors to that effect, none that we've seen at least. Then again, maybe Rhaegar and Lyanna were married according to an Old Gods ceremony. Speaking of which, how exactly do followers of the Old Gods marry each other?

Just thought I'd mention one more thing re: Targaryen marriage practices. I just finished reading the AFFC e-book and at the end in Appendix IV is this: The Targaryens are the blood of the dragon... To preserve their blood and keep it pure, House Targaryen has oft wed brother to sister, cousin to cousin, uncle to niece..."

Aunt to nephew perhaps?

Then there's this from the preview chapter (ADWD) Daenerys POV (Spoilers):

"...Five Aegons had ruled the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros, and ther might have been a sixth if the Usurper's dogs had not murdered her brother's son when he was still a babe at the breast. 'If he had lived I might have married him. Aegon would have been closer to my age than Viserys.'..."

Hmm...

[Geijon]

Sheesh. I'm not the type to post without looking for the answer, but this thread is just too massive.

In AGOT Robert and Eddard talk about the lass who whelped your bastard and he names her as Wilah. They also mention I think mention a higher royal woman when someone is discussing Jon at a camp, perhaps it was on the Fist a Storm of Swords.

Any greater book scholars able to answer. What leads us to believe this, while plausible take on things, when Eddard was so adamant about never lying. Did he make up Wilah?

[zmflavius]

Sheesh. I'm not the type to post without looking for the answer, but this thread is just too massive.

In AGOT Robert and Eddard talk about the lass who whelped your bastard and he names her as Wilah. They also mention I think mention a higher royal woman when someone is discussing Jon at a camp, perhaps it was on the Fist a Storm of Swords.

Any greater book scholars able to answer. What leads us to believe this, while plausible take on things, when Eddard was so adamant about never lying. Did he make up Wilah?

If you reread the Wylla passage, you'll note that he never explicitly names her as Jon's mother.

The other high-born lady is Ashara Dayne, who has a history with Eddard, but Ned never explicitly acknowledges her as the mother either.

[LadyMary]

Sheesh. I'm not the type to post without looking for the answer, but this thread is just too massive.

In AGOT Robert and Eddard talk about the lass who whelped your bastard and he names her as Wilah. They also mention I think mention a higher royal woman when someone is discussing Jon at a camp, perhaps it was on the Fist a Storm of Swords.

Any greater book scholars able to answer. What leads us to believe this, while plausible take on things, when Eddard was so adamant about never lying. Did he make up Wilah?

Ned also tells Arya at one point that some lies are noble. He thinks to himself at another point some secrets are too dangerous to tell even those who you trust the most. Ned agonizes over the promise he made and the 14 years of lies he had to tell. Even honorable Ned has his secrets.

As for Wylla, Ashara and the R+L=J theory, there are links upthread to two essays that explain it better than I could. Wylla was a real person and apparently was Jon's wet nurse as Edric Dayne says that he is Jon's "milk brother".

[Popgun]

Just out of curiosity, have you by any chance read the following essays?

http://towerofthehand.com/essays/chrisholden/jon_snows_parents.html

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/Who_are_Jon_Snows_parents/

I think they do a pretty good job of laying out the evidence in favor of R+L=J. Apologies if you've read them already, just ignore them if you have.

Thanks for those links. I had read the Citadel one but hadn't seen the Tower of the Hand essay. The TotH essay is the most convincing. Most of the evidence for the R+L=J I dismissed as being up for interpretation. One quote from the book that's been making me think is,

[italic]He remembered Rhaegar's infant son, the red ruin of his skull, and the way the king had turned away, as he had turned away in Darry's audience hall not so long ago. He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.[/italic]

Makes ya think for sure. There is still a lot of evidence refuting the theory and evidence for E+W=J.

Women are capable of lactating long after having a baby. I'm not sure exactly how it works, I think there has to be regular breast suckling or something like that. Perhaps some of the more knowledgeable board members could explain this better than me.

In any event, Wylla could easily have had a child years earlier and still be lactating by the time Jon was born. There's no need to explain a "second baby" here.

I disagree. Sure a woman could keep lactating for a length of time but Wylla was publicly seen so it would be impossible for her to just have an extra baby in her arms one day and go "Oh yeah, I just popped this baby out before lunch." Especially if Ned was believed to be the father. Wylla would have had to have been pregnant and given birth around the time Jon was born, regardless of what theory you believe.

Plus when they find the wolf pups at the beginning. Robb and Jon ride ahead and make the discovery. Ned says something along the lines of "I wonder what trouble my sons have stirred up now." Since Bran hadn't ridden ahead he could only be referring to Jon and Robb. Also the pups themselves. 5 pups and a runt-pup for Jon the bastard of Ned, seems to fit better than 5 pups and a runt-pup for Jon who is actually some super powerful guy reborn who will save the world.

I hope it is E+W=J rather than L+R=J. I don't want GRRM to do a u-turn into cliche fantasy where a child born of two powerful opposing forces grows up to save the world. It's just as cliche as two best friends or two brothers grow up to be the most powerful warrior and wizard in the world.

Just started a new re-read to get ready for A Dance With Dragons. I'll be paying special attention to this question hehe.

[Galen M]

Plus when they find the wolf pups at the beginning. Robb and Jon ride ahead and make the discovery. Ned says something along the lines of "I wonder what trouble my sons have stirred up now." Since Bran hadn't ridden ahead he could only be referring to Jon and Robb. Also the pups themselves. 5 pups and a runt-pup for Jon the bastard of Ned, seems to fit better than 5 pups and a runt-pup for Jon who is actually some super powerful guy reborn who will save the world.

Well, it's awkward for him to think "I wonder what trouble my true son and my adoptive son have stirred up now" or even "I wonder what trouble my son and nephew have stirred up now." He raised Jon as his son, so he considers him as such. I guarentee if you ask parents who adopt that they consider the child to be their own son/daughter and any internal monologue would refer to him as their son, unless it was specific to the circumstances of his birth.

As for the pups, it's not that Ghost is a runt like Jon but rather that Ghost is an outcast like Jon.

[Dragonfish]

There is still a lot of evidence refuting the theory

I don't think there's as much evidence refuting it as you think there is. :)

I disagree. Sure a woman could keep lactating for a length of time but Wylla was publicly seen so it would be impossible for her to just have an extra baby in her arms one day and go "Oh yeah, I just popped this baby out before lunch." Especially if Ned was believed to be the father. Wylla would have had to have been pregnant and given birth around the time Jon was born, regardless of what theory you believe.

Wylla could easily have been at the Tower of Joy the entire time, making her one of the two people (at least) to find Ned with Lyanna. So once again, there's no need to explain a second baby.

Also the pups themselves. 5 pups and a runt-pup for Jon the bastard of Ned, seems to fit better than 5 pups and a runt-pup for Jon who is actually some super powerful guy reborn who will save the world.

Jon is still half-Stark no matter what, so there's no inconsistency with him getting a wolf.

And since when does R+L=J hold that Jon will be "some super powerful guy reborn who will save the world"? All the theory states is that Jon is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar. What GRRM actually does with that plot point is still up in the air. You're criticizing the theory for where you think it will lead, without actually knowing if it will lead there.

I hope it is E+W=J rather than L+R=J. I don't want GRRM to do a u-turn into cliche fantasy where a child born of two powerful opposing forces grows up to save the world. It's just as cliche as two best friends or two brothers grow up to be the most powerful warrior and wizard in the world.

GRRM doesn't dispense with tropes and cliches, he plays with them. That's partly what the series is known for. So it's not at all unlike him to have a typical "hidden heir" story, as long as he puts an interesting spin on it.