The R+L=J thread, part XI

[corbon]

So you're saying that Edric is not worthy of listening to? Edric says (in the actual book) that E+W=J. So according to your theory of R+L=J Edric has been lied to. Even though Edric is lord of Starfall, all these rumours have passed him by. He seems pretty smart in the book and he believes E+W=J. So forgive me for discounting your theories. But I'd rather trust the theories of a guy in the actual story as apposed to a fan.

What do you do when two characters have conflicting theories? Explode? :huh:

Catelyn thinks Jon's mother is Ashara... At least, she asked Ned that, which means Ashara was her best guess based on what she knew.

Edric is as worthy of listening to as the next character, but like all characters a couple of things must be taken into account when listening.

1. Edric knows only what Edric 'knows' - his information is incomplete, and vastly less than readers' information, unless he was actually present.

Readers know what a whole bunch of people 'know'. They actually have a better idea about just about everything than almost every character in the books. Unless a character was present, the readers probably know more about any event than the character does.

2. Edric wasn't even born when the events in question happened. His entire knowledge of Jon's mother is hearsay, and he has no reason to be suspicious of anything he is told. If he had been told that Cersei was Jon's mother he would probably be telling Arya so with full confidence, even if Ned and Cersei never met prior to Jon's birth.

Oh so rather than believing what is actually written in the books, you go on to believe unwritten circutmstantial evidence.

Well, what is written in the books is not that Wylla is Jon's mother, merely that Robert believes so and Edric believes so.

I am prepared to believe both the characters believe Wylla is Jon's mother. I am not prepared to believe that either of the characters, neither of which were involved, are omniscient.

In fact, given that one is famously an ignorant and unquestioning fantasist, and the other a mere boy with no reason for questions, I am prepared to utterly discount their testimony as having any accurate basis at all. It simply isn't evidence of anything, which is why hearsay is not eligible in court.

This is a real sticking point for me. I just can't believe that Wylla would be rumoured to be the mother if she was never pregnant. I mean I'm sure when it happened the various birds and spiders would know that Ned knocked someone up. Why are ya'll discounting that so easily?

I don't think anyone has said Wylla could not have been pregnant. But her pregnancy is irrelevant, except as it allowed her to nurse Jon. And as has been demonstrated, that could have been even several years before Jon's birth. Wylla's first appearance in the story is not as a pregnant woman, but as a nursing one. Before that she does not appear, and there is no reason for her to appear. She may have been recently pregnant, but there is no other child - that is no big mystery as many children failed to make it past their first year or two in a similar culture in our world, and she is little more than a servant.

Although, frankly, if she was pregnant with Jon, then she would have been with Ned at some stage, both to get pregnant and to arrange to meet up at Starfall, so her absence from the story is then quite noticeable. If anything, the absence of a pregnant Wylla from Ned's side during the war until she appears at Starfall is a major strike against her being Jon's mother. It isn't a conclusive strike - she could have been a nobody, gotten pregnant to Ned, been sent away (south) and just happened to meet up with Ned etc between ToJ and Starfall. But frankly that is about as dubious a coincidence as I've ever heard of.

And no, there is no evidence, nor reason, that the spiders and birds would know if Ned got someone pregnant during the war, especially a nobody someone.

He was on campaign, on the opposing side. If Varys had that much reach/intel then the rebellion would have been taken much more seriously much earlier.

Littlefinger was a penniless nobody of about 16.

It's an accepted rumour that E+W=J in the actual books. Would Littlefinger, Varys and others keep the "lie" if weren't true?

Why would they know, or care, whether it was true or not?

They are smart players with good intel networks, but they are not omniscient. Varys has very much less intel outside KL and Littlefinger had none at all at the time. The have a clear, reasonable explanation for an unimportant event that happened a long time ago. Why would they even bother with it?

In conclusion. The evidence for E+W=J is overwheling. Hopefully A Dance With Dragons will prove me right once and for all.

:rofl:

That is hilarious. The evidence for E+W=J can hardly be overwhelming when it entirely consists of hearsay from two uninvolved people.

There is no evidence from anyone involved.

There is no material evidence.

The circumstantial evidence does not fit well.

[Luin]

Pity GRRM doesn't just say it already Yet the death scene with Lyanna alone is very strong evidence for R+L=J.

[jlk7e]

Both of these are patently wrong, and in any case, due to Martin's reputation as a deconstructionist, if a theory is presented bluntly in the books, has no support other than "someone said it," and is the first (and often second) theory presented, it is almost certainly wrong, whatever the subject.

I don't think that's what the word "deconstructionist" means. At any rate, this isn't actually true. Theories presented entirely on hearsay evidence are sometimes true and sometimes false. Tywin says at the end of A Game of Thrones:

I have felt from the beginning that Stannis was a greater danger than all the others combined. Yet he does nothing. Oh, Varys hears his whispers. Stannis is building ships, Stannis is hiring sellswords, Stannis is bringing a shadowbinder from Asshai. What does it mean? Is any of it true?

These rumors all actually turn out to be true. Before we meet the Brotherwood without Banners in the middle of A Storm of Swords, we hear rumors that Beric Dondarrion has been killed many times, and also that he is still roaming about. Although these rumors are not only unsubstantiated, but also apparently contradictory, they are also true.

Tyrion surmises, based on nothing other than an offhand comment Joffrey makes, that Joffrey was responsible for the attempted assassination of comatose Bran. Jaime surmises it from even less evidence, but it later seems more or less confirmed and we are certainly meant to take it as fact.

I think we are meant to take it as true that Littlefinger was behind Joffrey's decision to go ahead and execute Ned, even though this is pretty close to the first (and only) theory we've been presented about why Joffrey did this.

That being said, I think any opponent of the idea that Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son has to explain a variety of questions:

1) What did Ned promise Lyanna?

2) What is the "Bed of Blood"? Why is it called that?

3) Why were three members of the Kingsguard guarding Lyanna at the Tower of Joy even after Rhaegar's death?

4) Who is Jon's mother?

5) When and where did Ned impregnate her?

6) Where was Jon born?

Question 4 seems to be the only one that most of the alternative theories attempt to answer. The rest is all hand-waving. The theory that Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegar's son explains pretty much all of the current evidence, except for a few questions like "Who is Wylla and why do people think she is Jon's mother?" But that seems a lot easier to answer than the question of what Ned promised Lyanna if Jon wasn't her son.

[Legstrong]

Darn, all the dragons are mother-killer...

Lady Lyanna had died birthing Jon;

Lady Joanna had died birthing Tyrion;

Queen Elia had died birthing Daenerys.

[Masha]

I

I think we are meant to take it as true that Littlefinger was behind Joffrey's decision to go ahead and execute Ned, even though this is pretty close to the first (and only) theory we've been presented about why Joffrey did this.

Sorry its a bit off topic but where is it mentioned, assumed or anyway implied in the book that LF was the one behind Joffrey's deciison to execute Ned? I've been under assumption it was all Joff by himself. As far as I assumed LF would have been satisfied with Ned downfall whether he went to NW or been executed.

[Bulok]

Hello all! I'm new here, I just started the book and I am on the 2nd book. Began reading right after i watched the first episode on HBO and I loved it.

Anyway, I don't know if this has been mentioned before but when the show started they were giving out handouts of the different families in the book with family trees etc, and on some family pages there are screen grabs from the show (presumably of something pertaining to the family on the page). I don't know if it's coincidence or what but on the Targaryen family page the main picture is of Jon Snow holding the dire wolf cubs. I don't know how much input the author has had on the tv series or the handouts for them but I thought it was a funny coincidence.

[Popgun]

Hello all! I'm new here, I just started the book and I am on the 2nd book. Began reading right after i watched the first episode on HBO and I loved it.

Anyway, I don't know if this has been mentioned before but when the show started they were giving out handouts of the different families in the book with family trees etc, and on some family pages there are screen grabs from the show (presumably of something pertaining to the family on the page). I don't know if it's coincidence or what but on the Targaryen family page the main picture is of Jon Snow holding the dire wolf cubs. I don't know how much input the author has had on the tv series or the handouts for them but I thought it was a funny coincidence.

lol, really? Is it still there? Do you have a link? If that is true you can call it a royal f*** up of HBO producers and GRRM.

I can't find that link, but if it is true I would most likely convert to the R+L=J theory.

As for the posts of peeps saying "why would Ned hide from Jon he was born from some lowly servant called Wylla." He doesn't tell Jon because it is the truth. Ned has pumped out 5 true borns with his wife. He feels too guilty to tell Jon that he is the son of a servant.

Plus Ned vowed Wylla his love, then goes "oh well actually duty calls. Catch ya later." Wylla is devastated and Ned is disgusted at himself for lying just to get some sex. His disgust at himself means he protects Wylla's memory forever.

The Winterfell peeps think the mother might actually be Ashara.... they are snobs like so many fans. It's inconceivable that Ned would sleep with a lowly servant right? Not true. Ned loved Ashara but is now stuck with Cat.... Ashara is now promised to someone else.... Ned talks to a serving girl, gets horny and dogs her. Totally plausible imo.

Makes me think that most fans are snobs. Like Jon is too cool to be the son of a servant. Oh I know, I'll just make up a stupid theory and believe R+L=J.

As I have said many times before. All the evidence clearly shows E+W=J. Believe what you want. But when GRRM proves me right and I come back here to gloat over my victory. At least admit I am right, bend the knee to me and swear fealty as my new A Song of Ice and Fire Apprentice.

[Volderon]

lol, really? Is it still there? Do you have a link? If that is true you can call it a royal f*** up of HBO producers and GRRM.

I can't find that link, but if it is true I would most likely convert to the R+L=J theory.

As for the posts of peeps saying "why would Ned hide from Jon he was born from some lowly servant called Wylla." He doesn't tell Jon because it is the truth. Ned has pumped out 5 true borns with his wife. He feels too guilty to tell Jon that he is the son of a servant.

Plus Ned vowed Wylla his love, then goes "oh well actually duty calls. Catch ya later." Wylla is devastated and Ned is disgusted at himself for lying just to get some sex. His disgust at himself means he protects Wylla's memory forever.

The Winterfell peeps think the mother might actually be Ashara.... they are snobs like so many fans. It's inconceivable that Ned would sleep with a lowly servant right? Not true. Ned loved Ashara but is now stuck with Cat.... Ashara is now promised to someone else.... Ned talks to a serving girl, gets horny and dogs her. Totally plausible imo.

Makes me think that most fans are snobs. Like Jon is too cool to be the son of a servant. Oh I know, I'll just make up a stupid theory and believe R+L=J.

As I have said many times before. All the evidence clearly shows E+W=J. Believe what you want. But when GRRM proves me right and I come back here to gloat over my victory. At least admit I am right, bend the knee to me and swear fealty as my new A Song of Ice and Fire Apprentice.

Ok but a member posted four questions earlier on that you must answer. You did not. How did Lyanna die? What was Ned's promise? He returned her body to Winterfell, wasn't that. What was the bed of blood? Why were there Kingsguard there at a remote tower when Rhaegar isn't there?

OF COURSE all the evidence suggests Wylla. Did you see the TV show? Ned won't even tell Robert what she looked like and he turns away when he says her name. Did he lie to the king? Probably. Especially since later in the episode he said, "It's a great crime to lie to a king." Coincidence? Yours to decide :-p

Ever wonder why we don't have an E+W=J thread? Because it's too obvious and GRRM wouldn't slap his readers in the face with a mystery like Jon's mother just being "some random whore."

[zmflavius]

As for the posts of peeps saying "why would Ned hide from Jon he was born from some lowly servant called Wylla." He doesn't tell Jon because it is the truth. Ned has pumped out 5 true borns with his wife. He feels too guilty to tell Jon that he is the son of a servant.

However, if this is the case, then why the hell would Ned think "If only he could see the boy again, sit and talk with him." Does he really think that Jon would appreciate being told his mother was some Dornish servant? Or do you believe that Ned desperately wants to talk to Jon again while he's in the black cells and possibly about to die because he's not entirely certain he's keeping up with his grades at Castle Black?

Plus Ned vowed Wylla his love, then goes "oh well actually duty calls. Catch ya later." Wylla is devastated and Ned is disgusted at himself for lying just to get some sex. His disgust at himself means he protects Wylla's memory forever.

This is a bit out of character for Ned, then and now, and is also based purely on unwritten circumstantial evidence.

The Winterfell peeps think the mother might actually be Ashara.... they are snobs like so many fans. It's inconceivable that Ned would sleep with a lowly servant right? Not true. Ned loved Ashara but is now stuck with Cat.... Ashara is now promised to someone else.... Ned talks to a serving girl, gets horny and dogs her. Totally plausible imo.

Plausible =/= Likely. It was plausible that Ser Hugh killed Jon Arryn, that Tyrion tried to murder Bran, and that Ashara Dayne is Jon's mother (this is more plausible than your theory, and not just because your belief that Ashara Dayne was promised to someone only exists within your head).

Makes me think that most fans are snobs. Like Jon is too cool to be the son of a servant. Oh I know, I'll just make up a stupid theory and believe R+L=J.

It's not making up when it's based on direct evidence. Something your E+W=J theory sorely lacks. Provide seven, no let's make this easier, five quotes from the books which support E+W=J. They should be separated by at least three sentences each and preferably be more reliable than a character making a dubious claim that not even they are certain of the facts of. There, that shouldn't be too hard even for the abused pile of rocks between your under-used ears/eyes.

As I have said many times before. All the evidence clearly shows E+W=J. Believe what you want. But when GRRM proves me right and I come back here to gloat over my victory. At least admit I am right, bend the knee to me and swear fealty as my new A Song of Ice and Fire Apprentice.

Your epileptic trees are not evidence, because their main evidence is your pre-conceived conclusions, refusal to acknowledge the existence of eleven threads and an encyclopedic article of evidence, and your being convinced that Ned is roughly equivalent to Robert in terms of fidelity, Edric Dayne is a Child of the Forest aware of events before he was born, and that Robert is a reliable witness, in well, anything.

[Raventhal]

lol, really? Is it still there? Do you have a link? If that is true you can call it a royal f*** up of HBO producers and GRRM.

I can't find that link, but if it is true I would most likely convert to the R+L=J theory.

As for the posts of peeps saying "why would Ned hide from Jon he was born from some lowly servant called Wylla." He doesn't tell Jon because it is the truth. Ned has pumped out 5 true borns with his wife. He feels too guilty to tell Jon that he is the son of a servant.

Plus Ned vowed Wylla his love, then goes "oh well actually duty calls. Catch ya later." Wylla is devastated and Ned is disgusted at himself for lying just to get some sex. His disgust at himself means he protects Wylla's memory forever.

The Winterfell peeps think the mother might actually be Ashara.... they are snobs like so many fans. It's inconceivable that Ned would sleep with a lowly servant right? Not true. Ned loved Ashara but is now stuck with Cat.... Ashara is now promised to someone else.... Ned talks to a serving girl, gets horny and dogs her. Totally plausible imo.

Makes me think that most fans are snobs. Like Jon is too cool to be the son of a servant. Oh I know, I'll just make up a stupid theory and believe R+L=J.

As I have said many times before. All the evidence clearly shows E+W=J. Believe what you want. But when GRRM proves me right and I come back here to gloat over my victory. At least admit I am right, bend the knee to me and swear fealty as my new A Song of Ice and Fire Apprentice.

What evidence? There is no evidence except rumor that E+W=J. There is no proof of time and place to make the baby. Ned's personality doesn't click with having a bastard. Keeping it secret even from his close friend Robert serves nothing.

Evidence for R+L=J.

R hits on L at tourney. R kidnaps L consensual or not. War starts over kidnapping. R stays with L. R heads into war and dies. Kings Guard stays with L after Targaryen's lose with king and prince heir dead. L mysteriously dies in a bed of blood after battle between only 3 kings guard and 7 Stark and men. Kings Guard fight to the death with Stark and men after being questioned on why they are still there after events and "true heir" Vinny "Don't wake the Dragon" Targaryen is at Dragonstone. L dying in said bed of blood ask N to promise.

From what I remember. N gets host from North after Brandon and Rikard are killed. N marries and knocks up Cat. N fights to Kings Landing. N leaves and breaks siege at Storm End. N rides back across country to Tower of Joy. Above happens. Ned returns to Kings Landing. Ned returns with Jon to Winterfell. Jon is about the same age as Robb.

Questions.

How did Ned manage to war and have a baby down south that was about the same age as Robb within a year's span? Meaning both jon and robb were in their basically new born stages. 10 months or 9 whole months of conception give or take a month or so for prematures.

What happened between R+L during the year long stay?

Why are the Kings Guard guarding L after the war is over?

When Ned comes to claim his sister why do the Kings Guard fight to the death? Why do it even after R is dead?

Why don't remaining Loyalist Kings Guard return to defend Robert in KL or Vinserys Targaryen at Dragonstone?

Why does L die in a bed of blood? With 10 people there who killed her? Wasn't R. Was it the King's Guard? Was it Ned or his closest friends? Did she commit suicide?

Why does L ask Ned to make a promise on her death bed?

Why does honor til he dies Ned make a bastard?

Why does Ned secretive about his bastards mother?

Now answer each of those questions with specifics of what would happen if R+L=J.

Not to mention that R+L=J is not obvious on first glance but make everything make sense.

[Original Ned's Bones]

Questions.

How did Ned manage to war and have a baby down south that was about the same age as Robb within a year's span? Meaning both jon and robb were in their basically new born stages. 10 months or 9 whole months of conception give or take a month or so for prematures.

What happened between R+L during the year long stay?

Why are the Kings Guard guarding L after the war is over?

When Ned comes to claim his sister why do the Kings Guard fight to the death? Why do it even after R is dead?

Why don't remaining Loyalist Kings Guard return to defend Robert in KL or Vinserys Targaryen at Dragonstone?

Why does L die in a bed of blood? With 10 people there who killed her? Wasn't R. Was it the King's Guard? Was it Ned or his closest friends? Did she commit suicide?

Why does L ask Ned to make a promise on her death bed?

Why does honor til he dies Ned make a bastard?

Why does Ned secretive about his bastards mother?

Now answer each of those questions with specifics of what would happen if R+L=J.

Not to mention that R+L=J is not obvious on first glance but make everything make sense.

Well said, and I'd like to see this answered. I find it more difficult to prove that Jon is NOT the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. I actually hope it's something else, but it looks like this is the case. I think Jon's character would be more interesting if he just was the bastard of some no-name woman. I'll reserve judgment to how his character is dealt with when the revelation comes out. If it makes him a king (secret wedding theory) or something silly like that, I'll puke.

[jlk7e]

Sorry its a bit off topic but where is it mentioned, assumed or anyway implied in the book that LF was the one behind Joffrey's deciison to execute Ned? I've been under assumption it was all Joff by himself. As far as I assumed LF would have been satisfied with Ned downfall whether he went to NW or been executed.

Tyrion and Varys discuss the possibility a fair amount in ACOK, iirc. Basically, Tyrion doesn't think that Joffrey would have come up with it on his own, and Littlefinger is the only plausible candidate to have put the idea into his head. But perhaps it's not so obvious as I thought.

Not to mention that R+L=J is not obvious on first glance but make everything make sense.

I think this is really important, and often overlooked. People say "R+L=J is too obvious", but what they seem to mean is "R+L=J fits the evidence available to us too well." The fact that people think this is an argument against it being true is difficult for me to grasp, but it seems to be based on the trope that Martin never does anything obvious (which is itself very silly). A good twist, or solution to a mystery story, is one that the reader should be able to figure out himself based on the evidence provided. A "surprise" result that previous information has not prepared us for at all is not actually a good way to proceed.

[Bulok]

lol, really? Is it still there? Do you have a link? If that is true you can call it a royal f*** up of HBO producers and GRRM.

I can't find that link, but if it is true I would most likely convert to the R+L=J theory.

As for the posts of peeps saying "why would Ned hide from Jon he was born from some lowly servant called Wylla." He doesn't tell Jon because it is the truth. Ned has pumped out 5 true borns with his wife. He feels too guilty to tell Jon that he is the son of a servant.

Plus Ned vowed Wylla his love, then goes "oh well actually duty calls. Catch ya later." Wylla is devastated and Ned is disgusted at himself for lying just to get some sex. His disgust at himself means he protects Wylla's memory forever.

The Winterfell peeps think the mother might actually be Ashara.... they are snobs like so many fans. It's inconceivable that Ned would sleep with a lowly servant right? Not true. Ned loved Ashara but is now stuck with Cat.... Ashara is now promised to someone else.... Ned talks to a serving girl, gets horny and dogs her. Totally plausible imo.

Makes me think that most fans are snobs. Like Jon is too cool to be the son of a servant. Oh I know, I'll just make up a stupid theory and believe R+L=J.

As I have said many times before. All the evidence clearly shows E+W=J. Believe what you want. But when GRRM proves me right and I come back here to gloat over my victory. At least admit I am right, bend the knee to me and swear fealty as my new A Song of Ice and Fire Apprentice.

It's not on their website, it's a handout they gave out. I don't know if it was given to the general public or just media but here's a scan I did

Oh and if Jon is actually Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, wouldn't it make him a contender for being "The Prince that was Promised" ?

[Dragonfish]

It's not on their website, it's a handout they gave out. I don't know if it was given to the general public or just media but here's a scan I did

Are you sure that's not Robb? It's hard for me to tell because the image is in black and white.

[Volderon]

Yeah that's Robb, that picture is just used as a background, I think it means nothing of significance.

[jxd]

Assuming the theory is true, and Howland Reed confirms it, why would anyone in Westeros believe it?

[MattTaz]

Assuming the theory is true, and Howland Reed confirms it, why would anyone in Westeros believe it?

It will be like Cersei & Jaime being Joffrey's parents. Some will believe it some will not

GRRM's characters are very human

Imagine if Wyla was Jon's mother. Imagine the sound of crickets of readers and TV watchers.

Then 'well that was the biggest waste of time i've ever spent, Ned was a mean prideful father to Jon, and Lyanna's

promise was about being buried in the North. The blue flower growing in a Wall of Ice vision, would be about a garden growing in the North.

Jon would mean absolutely nothing to Dany and the Targaryen line would probably end.

[Queen in the North]

Darn, all the dragons are mother-killer...

Lady Lyanna had died birthing Jon;

Lady Joanna had died birthing Tyrion;

Queen Elia had died birthing Daenerys.

Actually, R+L=J is only a theory, as is T=T (albeit a less popular one), and Elia was never queen. Dany's mother was Queen Rhaella. Sorry for the nitpick. :blushing:

[zmflavius]

Actually, R+L=J is only a theory, as is T=T (albeit a less popular one), and Elia was never queen. Dany's mother was Queen Rhaella. Sorry for the nitpick. :blushing:

What's T=T again?

[Galen M]

What's T=T again?

Tyrion Targaryen?