Cersei vs. Catelyn: Who is worse for their family?

[FacelessGirl]

I'm sorry if I came off as aggressive, I thought we were just debating how GRRM depicts gender roles. We are here to discuss the books after all but I can see that I came on a little strong. What I was trying to do was build a case against this particular line in your post: "men have it just as hard as females in this world". In my opinion that is clearly not the case and it seems that you agree. So perhaps there's been a misunderstanding?

I don't mind passion in debate, that's what makes it fun. But yes it seems we both have the same opinion and just went about it differently. The only thing I meant by that line was that yes men do have the advantage in this world, but when it comes to certain injustices of war and the finality of death they are all equal, and their advantage is rather slim in comparison. I'm thinking more in terms of the smallfolk, it may seem, the ones I truly feel connected to. I apologize for snapping at you. I really like these books and am glad to have this forum to discuss them. :)

[iamthedave]

Obviously Cersei is deeply resentful of the limitations placed on her because of her gender and eventually that is part of what makes her a horrible person. I thought I made that clear in my previous post. My point was that the other option that you presented (accepting it) does not seem to work out any better for the female POV characters who do go that route. I therefore do not see why things would necessarily turned out so much better for Cersei either had she taken the approach you suggest.

In fairness, nothing ever works out for Martin's POV characters.

If you take the whole cast into account, you get Margaery Tyrell, who did VERY well by 'accepting' her place as a woman and learning how to wield the tools available to her in a non-destructive way. She was clearly on the way to helping Tommen become a decent ruler before Cersei waded in with her Mother Knows Best bull, the Queen of Thorns as well, that old Lannister woman whose name I can't remember who said that classic line about Tyrion being Tywin's son, and.... I think that's all. I'd expect that we could look at the Dornish princesses as well if we knew more about them.

Basically it's not that it doesn't work trying it the other way, it's just that Martin doesn't seem to think success is all that interesting.

I'd propose that a calmer, less insane Cersei would have turned out incredibly well. Robert was a malleable king, and Cersei, rather than manipulating him to be a good ruler, chose instead to make his life hell and drive them further and further apart after one drunken whisper. One wound to her pride and that's it, Robert's the enemy for life.

She could have chosen to suffer his indignities and drunkenness in return for power (which Robert didn't want and wasn't suited to). But Cersei's a prideful, bitter, selfish woman who doesn't just want things, she wants them HER WAY. It's not good enough to have something unless she has it on HER TERMS. And that's the jump she makes which makes 'the woman's way' not viable. The analog would be Catelyn choosing to despise Ned because he's NOT BRANDON, though it's not ideal. Instead she works with what she has instead of being bitter for what she doesn't, and things turn out fine.

Basically, a woman cannot define the field in Westeros. But if she accepts that and works within the limits provided, she can easily forge successes for herself. Men are able, often through force of arms, are able to define the field or change the rules of engagement. I think that's the central difference.

[Nukelavee]

But don't many of the issues in the book come down to pride/honour?

Here's what I think was where Cat messed up entirely - Going to King's Landing. Ignore Tyrion's capture and everything that follows for a change, and just think about that.

First - Cat went all zombie when Bran was in his coma, leaving Robb to run Winterfell. I'm fairly certain we could have a thread alone on how that was bad for the Starks in general. Robb did his best, but leaving a huge community like Winterfell to be overseen by a 14 year old?

But, she buggered off to KL, with the one person who should have never left as well - Rodrik.

I just read past Bronn winning Tyrion's freedon, and you know what I noticed? Robb called the banners without any older person's oversight. Sure, that's Robb being hasty, but I think Cat could have finessed that action and avoided the "King" aspect.

Plus, Tyrion was still at the Wall - all she had to do was sit at home, and grab a Lannister as he returned home.

Cersie? It was her pride that caused all her missteps. Sure, women are second class subjects, and, sure, resenting that is natural (and reasonable). Her flaw isn't wanting to not just be a breeder, it's in the way she assumes that just being Cersie Lannister is reason enough to want to rule, or makes her fit to rule.

[Kittyhat]

Well, enough's been said about it already, so I'll just cast my votes with some brief comments:

Cersei vs. Catelyn: Cersei is worse by far. In fact, I can't think of one good thing she ever did, save self-destructing and thereby doing the world the courtesy of (apparently) removing herself from the picture.

Tywin vs. Ned: Tywin is worse. Ned may have made terrible mistakes at King's Landing, but he was a good father, and it shows in his children. Tywin made tons of mistakes as well, was gifted incredible luck by the plot (unlike Ned) to save him from his blunders, and then managed to blunder one too many times and stupid himself to death anyway. Meanwhile, he also raised his children horribly, and it shows one way or another in all of them.

[Myrish swan]

Just wondering... but why has no one started a similar thread for the bad father's in these books? Or which man is worse for their family? (Tyrion certainly has taken a few blows against the Lanisters, that's for sure.)

At any rate, I'd say Cersei is worse. While she has not destroyed her family by any means, she is responsible for overindulging (and encouraging) her psychopathic son, and alienating her brother. In contrast, Cat has done the best she can, and has had horrible luck.

I frequently hear people say that the main reason why they hate Cersei Lanister and Lysa Tully is that they were "horrible mothers". (This is true, too, of a lesser degree, of Catelyn Stark. However, others say that being a "good" mother is actually an indication that Cat is "incredibly selfish"... I guess, unlike all of the other selfless, altruistic characters in these books. :rolleyes:)

However, I rarely hear these same comments about the men, which is strange, since this series is teeming with bad fathers: Randyll Tarley, Tywin, Robert Baratheon, and yes, Jaime Lanister. (I don't care what anyone says, he was responsible for not giving a crap about his kids prior to ASOS. And I actually think he resented them, since they took some of Cersei's time away from him. "Mother's," he says angrily in AGoT. Oh, and of course, who can forget, "Joffrey was just a squirt of seed in Cersei's cunt." What a guy.) While these characters are often disliked, it is not primarily because they are bad fathers; or, at least, they don't tend to get the danming label slapped on them the way the women do.

For instance, Randyll Tarley, despite threatening his son with death, is actually defended by some readers, who argue that Randyll is a lord, and needed a strong son to be lord after him. Thus, his treatment of Sam, while not admirable, was not evil, either.

And yes, the Randyll Tarley defenders are in the minority, however, I'd say there is roughly three times more of them than there are Cersei defenders. And honestly, Tarley's ongoing abuse of Samwell struck me as far, far worse than anything Cersei ever did with Joff. Cersei merely indulged Joff, and foolishly encouraged his cruelty, mistaking it with strength. Tarley was outright physically abusive with his son, doing things that could have led to great physical harm for sam. The fact that Sam turned out okay and Joff a monster is, I totally believe, due far more to innate disposition than the quality of parenting they recieved.

Honestly, I just think it's funny how many threads are disscussing how bad for their families Cat and Cersei are. They often get blamed for their mistakes, but are seldom given credit for anything that goes right (I'm thinking specifically of Cersei here.) For instance, Cersei is blamed 100 percent for Joffrey; but is given no credit for the basically sweet, gentle, and intelligent natures of Tommen and Myrcella. And, though AFFC presents her as never thinking of them, prior to that book it was clear she loved all her children, and did not neglect them. And for the record, in AFFC, even as GRRM was demonizing Cersei to cartoonish heights, I did not get any indications, in her interactions with Tommen, that she was a horrible mother. She made her share of mistakes, certainly, and often gave him bad advice. But she never did anything to warp or ruin Tommen for life. Compared to Randyll Tarley, she's practically a picture of loving parenthood.

The only exception to the "bad father=excusable, bad mother= inexcusable" dichotomy that I've detailed above is Tywin. He is hated almost as much. However, the Tywin hatred is often attributed not to the fact that Tywin is a bad, or "unnatural" father, but because he mistreats a beloved POV character. However, Cat gets as much hate for him for "unnaturally" refusing to play the mother's role of Ned's BASTARD CHILD as Tywin does for inflicting severe sexual abuse on his son. And Cersei is critisized far more for spoiling Joff than Tywin is for having a girl gang raped.

At any rate, Tywin was good for the Lanister family in general. It seems he was their foundation, more or less.

[Raiki]

Well, so much for not derailing the thread.

Swan, for what it's worth, I've always thought that Tarly was the single worst parent that we've yet had the displeasure of reading about. Robert and Tywin may be clueless and aloof (when they're not being intentionally cruel), Cersei may fill her childrens' minds with bile, Lysa may have babied her child into oblivion; But at least none of those characters was so far gone from the realm of parenthood as to threaten to end their child's life.

Given, Sam may have been the exact opposite of what Randyll wanted in a son, but there are much better ways to remove some one from the line of succession than killing them. I'm fairly sure that GRRM wasn't trying to illustrate a desire to disenfranchise Sam, so much as a sense of disgust so strong that only blood could cure it. This makes Tarly a terrible parent far beyond any level that Cersei could hope to reach, short of beheading Tommen herself.

Also, for the record, I think Sam would be just about the perfect son (minus the bad health, of course). But that's neither here nor there.

~R~

[Jane Doe]

Cersei is blamed 100 percent for Joffrey; but is given no credit for the basically sweet, gentle, and intelligent natures of Tommen and Myrcella.

Swan, I remember there was something Jaime said in ASoS or AFFC, something like "Tommen's only nice and sweet because he wasn't old enough to hang around Cersei long enough to get all the bad influences like Joff did".

Tywin may have never placed his children above the well-being of House Lannister, but I do believe he loved Jaime and Cersei. He's not used to show his love to his child, a trait that I understand is considered "bad parenting" in temporary American culture, but in a lot of other cultures including my own, people don't believe in fathers showing his soft side.

Ned may have all the love for his children, but what good he did for them when he didn't prepare them for the world? Sansa is naive and played a major role in destroying her family. Robb is honorable to a fault. Jon is another case because he's bastard, he's not in the same world as the Stark children.

I have always pictured Tarly somehow like Tywin. If Tyrion turned out to be firstborn, and her mother survived, Tywin would definitely do the same.

Cersei vs Cat: For their family? Let's see. Ned's dead. Robb's dead. Sansa's LF's pet and who knows whatever. Arya's half a world away and possibly blind. Bran's beyond the Wall and Rickon's doing ok. Edumure's hostage(can't remember this). Blackfish's banished. Her family has lost the North.

Robert's dead.(this doesn't count I guess). Tywin's dead. Jaime's lost a hand and a stranger to her, Tyrion's banished, Joff's dead, Mycela's hurt and Tommen's ok. So far the Lannisters are still the ruler of the Seven Kingdom.

Almost the same, I'd say.

[wolfeyoung]

Cersei now.

Cat is dead, so she can't hurt the Starks anymore really. (I don't think UnCat can anymore), but Cersei is still alive (though imprisoned) and therefore has the potential to keep destroying her family with every turn of the page...until Jamie kills her with his golden hand! =)

[Myrish swan]

Well, so much for not derailing the thread.

Am I really derailing the thread by adding another slight dynamic to it? The question was, "who is worse for their family, Catelyn or Cersei?" In response to this question, I immediately thought, "Cersei." However, my next thought was that neither Catelyn nor Cersei was nearly so bad compared to many of the men we've been presented with.

Is it really going to off topic to raise the question of how Cat and Cersei's parenting skills compare to Ranyll Tarley, Robert Baratheon, etc.? Because in response to the question, "who is worse," I couldn't help but think both Cersei and Cat are fantastic compared to a number of the dad's we've met.

And yeah, I couldn't help but notice that, while posters frequently criticsize Cat and Cersei for being horrible parents, the same is rarely done when assessing the moral characters of their male counterparts. Now, the obvious answer to this, when considering Cat and Cersei's parenting comparted to Randyll Tarley's, would be to say that Cat and Cersei are far more prominant characters than Randyll. However, I've noticed that even highly prominent male characters, such as Robert and Jaime, for instance, are criticsized far more rarely for their failings as parents. When people argue either for or against Robert and Jaime, (in terms of whether they are jerks or good people), their parenting is seldom mentioned.

This is especially true with Jaime. It seems as though a "Jaime Lanister" thread dedicated to discussing whether or not the kingslayer is truly reformed pops up here every several weeks. However, out of all of the things discussed in these-- throwing Bran, killing Jory, screwing Cersei, etc.-- I don't recall ever having heard his total neglect of his kids mentioned. And yes, i can anticipate that many are going to argue here that it was all Cersei's fault, she took the kids away from Jaime, etc. However, I'd argue that Jaime knowingly made these children, and then proceeded to more or less ignore them. And while that may have been necessary to a certain extent to hide the kids parentage from Robert, there were many things jaime could have done behind the scenes to help his kids grow up to be better people that he simplly did not do.

However, in contrast to Robert and Jaime, with Cersei and especially Cat, their failure as mother's is ALWAYS the first thing mentioned. Is it really derailing the whole thread to look into this, just a little bit?

Swan, for what it's worth, I've always thought that Tarly was the single worst parent that we've yet had the displeasure of reading about. Robert and Tywin may be clueless and aloof (when they're not being intentionally cruel), Cersei may fill her childrens' minds with bile, Lysa may have babied her child into oblivion; But at least none of those characters was so far gone from the realm of parenthood as to threaten to end their child's life.

Yeah, but you're missing my point. People on these threads have actually argued that Randyll Tarley's actions in regards to Sam were understandable, given the feudal culture of Westeros. Far more people defend Randyll's threats to murder his son than they do Cersei's parenting. (People object that Randyll Tarley was justified far more than they point out the very true fact that, with Tommen and Mycella, Cersei appears to have not done all that badly.) Secondly, I've seen far more rage directed at Catelyn for leaving Bran (in order to save her other children!!!) than I have for Randyll's blatant physical abuse.

Given, Sam may have been the exact opposite of what Randyll wanted in a son, but there are much better ways to remove some one from the line of succession than killing them. I'm fairly sure that GRRM wasn't trying to illustrate a desire to disenfranchise Sam, so much as a sense of disgust so strong that only blood could cure it. This makes Tarly a terrible parent far beyond any level that Cersei could hope to reach, short of beheading Tommen herself.

Since people often cite Cersei's most evil deed as being unfaithful to Jaime, I think that there's a whole different set of morality being applied in her case. And as of affc, Cersei's love for her children (or so the text indicates) is simply just another offspring of her narsassism. And BTW-- GRRM hates Cersei far more than he does Randyll Tarley. He paints the latter as merciless, ruthless, but nevertheless possessing some redeeming qualities; while he portrays the former as pure evil, and unbelievably stupid to boot.

[Myrish swan]

Cersei now.

Cat is dead, so she can't hurt the Starks anymore really. (I don't think UnCat can anymore), but Cersei is still alive (though imprisoned) and therefore has the potential to keep destroying her family with every turn of the page...until Jamie kills her with his golden hand! =)

Wow, is Jaime really worse in terms of destroying his family? After all, he created Joffrey the monster, who created so much destruction. He refused to serve as the hand to his sister, and curb her excesses.

And is Cersei really worse than Tyrion, who killed the foundation of the Lanister family, Tywin, out of revenge?

[Xenophon]

Since people often cite Cersei's most evil deed as being unfaithful to Jaime,

Wait, what? :shocked: People actually say that?

[Spring Bass]

Wait, what? :shocked: People actually say that?

I've never heard that, either. Is this another one of your "everybody knows/everybody hates" statements where almost nobody but you holds that opinion?

[Raiki]

Actually, Mryish swan, the derailing comment was more reflecting on the fact that with one throwaway comment I accidentally turned the whole thread into a feminist debate. Appologies if it implied anything else.

As for the rest, well you seem to have had my side of the argument for me, which conveniantly absolves me of the requirement to point out that I was actually agreeing with you on all counts and had no intention of defending Tarly, his defenders, or in fact almost any other father in the book (with the notable exception of Ned).

As to how GRRM views his characters, I will only say that he is one of the most gifted writers I've ever had the pleasure of reading and that aSoIaF is a work of fiction. Yes, his views are certain to bleed through into his work, but I don't think it's quite fair to assume that just because a character is viewed in a sexist way, through the lens of a sexist world, it makes the author a sexist as well. Also, GRRM has been quoted as saying that he doesn't hate any of his characters, and follows the "Villians are only the heroes of the other side" philosophy.

~R~

[Nukelavee]

Ned's teh only father we get to spend any time with. We never got a chance to know our other fathers, cry.

I don't know if it people care more about the women's faults, or they just don't care about the male equivalents. Hell, maybe it's because those ARE realistic types of fathers, and we just go, yup, Tywin reminds me of Chad's dad.

Basically, maybe we don't talk about the male upbringing because we just don't care to.

[Myrish swan]

I've never heard that, either. Is this another one of your "everybody knows/everybody hates" statements where almost nobody but you holds that opinion?

Totally.

You understand me so well.

Either that, or I've actually read more complaints about Cersei being incapable of love since she was cheating on Jaime than complaints about her actual truly evil deeds-- killing people for a puppet show; giving Falyse to Qyburn; etc.

P.S.-- there is really no need to get personal; I think its unfair ask if this is another one of my "everybody knows, everybody hates" statements. (What are these particular statements that you seem to find so stupid and offensive? I realize that I made a major blunder about Catelyn Stark in a previous thread, and I did attempt to apologize to you about it.) Fell free to call the statements themselves stupid, but please stop there. And if you are going to claim that I constantly make "everybody knows/ everybody hates statements where nobody but you holds that opinion," it seems fair that at least you should have some past examples to support it.

Or else you could always just put me on "ignore."

[lifefullofwords]

Ned's the only father we get to spend any time with. We never got a chance to know our other fathers, cry.

I find your post more than a little confusing but from what I can tell you are arguing in your first sentence that the only character we are familiar with as a father is Ned. I suppose he is the only one who is a POV character but Tywin is a very important character and GRRM depicts him as a horrible father. It is perhaps his most significant failure and one that leads to all of his children being really fucked up and thus has serious consequences. Randyll Tarly is another good example - although he is a minor character much of what we know about him has to do with what kind of father he is (beyond horrible, obviously) which makes it a very important part of how the reader judges Tarly.

I don't know if it people care more about the women's faults, or they just don't care about the male equivalents. Hell, maybe it's because those ARE realistic types of fathers, and we just go, yup, Tywin reminds me of Chad's dad.

You seem to be arguing that male the male characters are not interesting to discuss as parents because they are "realistic" and resemble real-life fathers. I am genuinely confused by your argument here... are the female characters not realistic then? What makes them less realistic parents than the male characters? I am interested in your answer.

Also, if people do care about women's faults more, and I would agree, ask yourself why. Is it at all possible that some people hold women to different standards than men, especially as relates to parenthood? It seems to me you are acknowledging but not condemning the fact that there is a serious double standard in the way people on this board talk about male and female characters.

Basically, maybe we don't talk about the male upbringing because we just don't care to.

Actually, I think people ARE interested in discussing male characters as fathers albeit far less interested than they are in discussing the female characters as mothers. They are also frequently hold fathers to a different (i.e. lower) standard than mothers. That said, the fact that a significant portion of this thread has been dedicated discussing Ned and Tywin despite the fact that the thread is supposed to be about Catelyn and Cersei, two very controversial characters, indicates that people do in fact find those characters to be interesting as fathers.

[Myrish swan]

Swan, I remember there was something Jaime said in ASoS or AFFC, something like "Tommen's only nice and sweet because he wasn't old enough to hang around Cersei long enough to get all the bad influences like Joff did".

I don't remember that. At all. However, it would not shock me if Tyrion (whose hatred of Cersei seems to match the authors own) said something like that, however, he can't be trusted in assessing Cersei. And if Jaime said it in AFFC... was this before or after jaime becomes consumed with petty sexual jealousy, and starts calling Cersei a whore, etc.?

Overall, I beg to differ with both the idea that Cersei mad Joffrey evil, and that Tommen was only saved by being brainwashed into "pure evil" by her because she was not around him as much. First, from everything we see of Joffrey, the kid clearly has anti-social personality disorder. Nature, not nurture, accounts for that. For an example of this, just look at Joffrey in comparison to Robert Arryn. I'd say that Robert Arryn is a normal kid who's been raised badly; Joff is a sociopath who's been raised badly.

Regarding Tommen only turning out decently because Cersei had no time to "brainwash" him, I disagree. From the first three books, we get every indication that Cersei spends time with all of her children. Furthermore, Cersei has plenty of time to "badly influence" Tommen in AFFC. She doesn't really do anything to badly influence, him; for the most part she behaves like a normal, albeit overindulgent, parent. There is the one time she yells at him and tells him he embarrassed her, etc. However, that is really nothing compared to the abuses of Tywin, Randyll Tarley, etc.

Plus-- do you find it at all odd that you are quoting Jaime… Joffrey’s father?! Do you hold him at all responsible for (or at least he claims) seeing Joffrey being raised so badly and doing nothing to stop it? And please do not object that "Cersei took the kids away from him!" B.S. Prior to AFFC, Jaime simply does not give a crap about his kids. He sums it up well after his son’s death, when he thinks "that boy was nothing more to me than a squirt of seed in Cersei's cunt.

Cersei vs Cat: For their family? Let's see. Ned's dead. Robb's dead. Sansa's LF's pet and who knows whatever. Arya's half a world away and possibly blind. Bran's beyond the Wall and Rickon's doing ok. Edumure's hostage(can't remember this). Blackfish's banished. Her family has lost the North.

Robert's dead.(this doesn't count I guess). Tywin's dead. Jaime's lost a hand and a stranger to her, Tyrion's banished, Joff's dead, Mycela's hurt and Tommen's ok. So far the Lannisters are still the ruler of the Seven Kingdom.

Almost the same, I'd say.

With all due respect, I disagree that Cat is responsible for the vast majority of things you mention. Ned? The only person responsible for that is Ned himself. Sansa? Cat has been doing everything she can to rescue her and Arya. She believes Bran and Riccon are dead, and that's Robb's fault, if any Stark is to blame. (Cat argued they could not trust Theon, but Robb insisted they could.) And like Ned, Robb honorably, understandably, but rather foolishly sealed his own fate. Cat did everything she could to make reparations. As for the idea that she brought Robb to the Red Wedding, that's unfair too. The red wedding was truly shocking and came out of nowhere; even Tyrion was shocked by it.

Plus-- Edmure and Blackfish are both adults. How is she responsible for them?

Cersei-- I'm not defending her, but, nonetheless, she is not responsible for a ridiculous amount of things you mention. Tywin? Tyrion killed him, and Jaime let Tyrion out and gave him the motive for murder. Cersei had nothing to do with that. Seriously, the death of Tywin is one place where Cersei is 100 percent innocent. Tyrion's banishment? The result of a set up; by every indication, he murdered his nephew, Cersei's son. Then he proceeded to murder his dad. So, I'd say the imp is once again responsible for his situation.

Regarding Jaime-- you actually have a point here; Cersei was wrong to alienate him. However, his reasons for hating her strike me being less about true morality, more about sexual jealousy. Regarding her kids: she could be held responsible for Joff's death, I guess. She did encourage his cruelty (mistaking it with strength), which led directly to Olenna doing away with him. As for Myrcella, Cersei is in no way responsible for her maiming. She was against sending her to dorne in the first place, but Tyrion talked her into it.

Basically, I think Cat (and the Starks in general) have had horrible luck; a great deal of what happened to them can be attributed to that. (As well as, I have to point out, lousy decisions by the men of the family, Ned and Robb.) But I really don’t see how Cat is responsible for—or has even significantly contributed to—the destruction of her family. IMO, she has made one unforgivably stupid choice, letting Jaime Lanister free. And that was to help her family…

Regarding Cersei—honestly, I think she is less responsible for the destruction of the Lanister’s than a whole host of people, starting with the great Tyrion himself. People loathe Cersei, and are generally eager to blame her for everything, but the idea that she has caused the destruction of her family is laughable. However, she is responsible for being more bad for her family than Catelyn Stark, who is pretty much blameless in that regard.

[Myrish swan]

Actually, Mryish swan, the derailing comment was more reflecting on the fact that with one throwaway comment I accidentally turned the whole thread into a feminist debate. Appologies if it implied anything else.

Understandable. And I simply thought I'd point out how the issues I brought up did tie in with this thread.

As for the rest, well you seem to have had my side of the argument for me, which conveniantly absolves me of the requirement to point out that I was actually agreeing with you on all counts and had no intention of defending Tarly,

Yes, I realize that; you were very clear about your disapproval of Tarley in your previous post. My further comparisons of Cersei and Cat to Randyll Tarley were to illustrate how I thought Tarley and the other fathers were relevant to this topic.

As to how GRRM views his characters, I will only say that he is one of the most gifted writers I've ever had the pleasure of reading and that aSoIaF is a work of fiction. Yes, his views are certain to bleed through into his work, but I don't think it's quite fair to assume that just because a character is viewed in a sexist way, through the lens of a sexist world, it makes the author a sexist as well. Also, GRRM has been quoted as saying that he doesn't hate any of his characters, and follows the "Villians are only the heroes of the other side" philosophy.

First, I never called Mr. Martin a sexist. Professing that something in a work of fiction is sexist, or that a certain character is presented in a sexist way, is not the same as making personal accusations against the author. Secondly, regarding his views bleeding into his work—yes, this is what I’m pointing out. I have noticed certain significant patterns and tendencies in this series (and ways of presenting characters), some of which strike me as sexist.

As for me assuming that “just because a character is viewed in a sexist way, through the lens of a sexist world,” that that makes the author sexist, that is not what I’m doing. Again, there is a difference between pointing out issues one has with presentations of characters/ situations and double standards found throughout a work and calling the person who wrote that work a sexist.

Furthermore, I realize that all of the characters in ASOIAF are part of a different, very patriarchal world. However, that is not my issue, nor is it the reason why I object to some characters/ tendencies in these books as being sexist or misogynistic. GRRM is trying to give a realistic portrait of a medieval esque world, rather than the traditional, sugar coated land of fantasy. The world he presents is real and gritty, and often unfair to women, and I can appreciate this. I can also appreciate that just because he presents something in these books does not mean he agrees with it.

However, I have taken pains to separate GRRM’s own views from those of Westeros in general, with results that are, in some cases, highly unsettling. My talk of sexism comes not from the conventions of Westeros or how women are treated there, but from certain consistent dissaproval, blatant double standards, and recurring messages put forth in the books.

Surely I’m not wronging Mr. Martin in pointing out these issues, and encouraging discussion on them?

[shinytoyrobots]

My vote is for Cersei. While many of Catelyn's actions, if not all of them, backfire in spectacular fashion or outright fail (Tyrion's trial in the Eyrie, Renly-Stannis conference, Robb's promised marriage to a Frey), one could argue, and I think effectively, that they were all out of love.

I think you can reasonably argue that Cersei's actions are motivated by love too. Love for Jaime and love for her children. She's not trying to make Joffrey into an evil and insane king, even though her actions push him that way. She's incredibly misguided in what she thinks "strength" is, and it leads her to push Joffrey into his worst behaviors.

All of her actions pretty much stem from a desire to protect her children and their inheritance, and because of a frustration over a marriage with a drunk, unfaithful man who treated her with no respect.

There's no evidence, for example, that Cersei does anything to particularly destabilize matters until Jon Arryn starts investigating the legitimacy of Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen. At which point, her children's inheritance and, indeed, potential survival, together with her own and her lover's, are all at risk.

Cersei, while on the subject of the family, manages to drive away Tyrion and make him a bitter enemy even though he does, by all rights, save King's Landing while Cersei was getting drunk and getting ready to have Illyn Payne go Mortal Kombat on the entire court.

Cersei's paranoid, but not without reason. Her son is King at a time when there are at least four other claimants, all of whom would execute him and her (note the comment in the book that there is a genuine belief that Cersei cares more for Joffrey's life than her own).

Drives Jaime away, her twin brother/lover, with a combination of her cruelty and her lack of understanding of the situation he is in.

She doesn't understand why Jaime is treating her differently, why he's pushing her away. Many people react angrily in such a situation.

Essentially, causes the death of of her father via her paranoid rantings of Tyrion murdering Joffery causing the trial and that whole fallout.

Though actually, from Cersei's standpoint I think Tyrion probably is the most legitimate suspect. He's continually mistreated by Joffrey, and yet has a good relationship with both Tommen and Myrcella. From the point of view of past behavior and personal survival, he does have reasonable motive to eliminate Joffrey.

Then, after that entire shitshow, drives away her uncle, Kevan, and refuses to give up being Queen Regent and why? Because Cersei wants to be queen. She doesn't care about her children, her father, her brothers, her family. All she cares about is her legacy and getting as much power for herself as she can get her dainty little hands on.

Also because giving up the Regency means at least tacitly admitting to Kevan her incest. And while you say that she doesn't care about her children, as a mother she's being asked to completely abandon them to someone else's care, this after events where one of them has already been murdered.

Catelyn is inept, but she's at least coming from a genuine and honorable place, even though some of her ideas deserved to get her a back hand or at least a quizzical, one eyebrow raised look. She also managed to raise a pretty badass gaggle of children that weren't born of incest so, she's got that going for her too. Cersei is just a a self-centered, high born prostitute with an extremely high opinion of herself. Yuck.

Seems to me that you're basing your judgement on a dislike of Cersei, rather than just basing your opinion on what's actually worse for each family. Motive doesn't necessarily mean benefits; Ned's continually acting with the best of motives and leaving a trail of chaos and destruction because of it. Tyrion often acts with the basest or sneakiest of motives, and brings more stability.

Cat and Cersei are both terrible for their respective families, but I think they both also act through very similar motives. I actually think that Cersei is one of the most pitiable characters in the series, she's certainly the one who's fallen the furthest from her youthful hopes and dreams.

Arguably Cat is more directly harmful in the grander scheme of things. Her taking of Tyrion, based on relatively flimsy evidence and without taking him to face the king's justice, is a major catalyst for the ensuing chaos. It pretty directly leads to Ned's injuries, which make him unable to leave King's Landing and far more vulnerable. Cersei subsequently does more to save Ned's life than Cat does, because she tells Joffrey to let him take the black.

Cersei's major problem is excessive pride, which means that when she finds herself in a situation where she's genuinely out of her depth, she can't admit that or take good advice. It's sad to see.

[Nukelavee]

Margery - Yes, part of what I am saying is that because we don't see into the heads of the "fathers", we really don't know how much effect they had on their children; compared to knowing the interest Ned had in bringing up his own. As a result, we don't have any idea if they were parents in terms of modern concepts, or just distant figures. We don't know what they were like day to day, or if they even took an interest in their children other than as extensions of the House.

Joff may have been a bad seed anyways, but we see how Roberts igoring him and Cersie's over-indulging him made him worse, but with Tywin and Randyll...they seem like shadowing figures who only took interest when their children made their reputations seem threatened.

I'm old enough that to me, it seems normal for a mother to have more influence on a child early on, and for a father to be less involved on a day to day basis.

Plus, it just seems that our society is less surprised by a "bad" father than a bad mother, so... we aren't surprised by the mistakes or flaws of the fathers.

It's interesting that Theon's worst actions come about because he tries to prove himself worthy of Balon.