Cersei vs. Catelyn: Who is worse for their family?

[Luin]

This has been a fun thread to read through, it seems everyone's interpretation of the series is different but I have to add in a heretical non answer to the OP

You asked "Bad for their families"

House of Lannister and House of Stark are both royal houses not families so what matters is results and both of them in their own ways brought their families down. I would say they are both equal, but here is the thing.

Cersei mainly brought herself down, and if Qyburn poisons and secretly maims as he never did before she may return to reassert her rights over Casterly Rock, if not she dies with the satisfaction that before she ran afoul of the faith she however briefly got to act as a male (which is what she always wanted). Cat however found Tyrion a merry observer who had little role in politics but had a large purse and a desire to do certain things and turned him into Joffrey's Hand of the King, so in some ways might as well have laid the chains herself. So they are about tied. There is no chance Tywin would have put Tyrion into any important position without Cat's help (he would have had to be blind and deft not to be impressed with Tyrion after he escaped Vale and Brigands).

As far as the "Cersei is a bad person so she was worst" argument you gave so what? Even without the details about what shaped the two women House of Lannister is in a great position now, House of Stark is gone, and while indirect the extent Cat and Cersei have had influence has often been in the wrong direction.

@Margery

I couldn't have said it better myself on your posts.

In general on Cersei a lot of her problems in AFfC is that by becoming Regent she was promised the absolute worst of everything in every possible way shape and form. She isn't trained or naturally able enough to be able to do without the right advice, and by walking into power she assures herself she won't get it because people capable of giving that advice are too "honorable" (at least when the issue is female rule) to ever serve under her. She initially comes up with a list of Hands of the King, and for the most part they say no. She turns to people like Qyburn (her last hope at present) at first because she has no choice. Over time surrounding herself with as many Rasputins as she could find morphs her sanity and makes her sink lower and lower. She is sympathetic for wanting to be male in an all male world, wanting self determination and wanting to make a difference on her own without mention of children or husband but she doesn't have the natural talent (her father didn't allow her to get the unnatural type) and people who could give her the correct advice will have nothing to do with her. You get to see her downwards spiral and it is very fun seeing her go from a schemer to just evil to finally now (about) dead. The fault also has to go to Cersei because she chose the regency. She could have resigned it in favor of someone weak enough to manipulate and gone to rule Casterly Rock alone, but instead she insisted that her independence and power had to be absolute. The Paranoia was also extremely fun, suspecting Kevan wants the Regency when he demands the Regency and control of Casterly Rock as his terms for becoming Hand of the King made her correct to think he wanted the regency,being told that a young pirate would not be a reliable person as grand admiral because of inexperience and clearly suspect loyalties should not have sparked a long paranoid chain of thought :thumbsup: Things like that made AFfC very fun to go through, p.s. I wonder how they will kill Qyburn if Cersei cracks.

Cat had the same spiral, but the difference is she went from a powerless good woman to a powerful evil one :D

@ Nuke

I thought it was just as influenced by Asha publicly disgracing and humiliating him? Lets not over compensate for Westeros giving father's a pass by giving sisters a pass on their possible bad influence.

[Fryie]

Ned's problem was different. Ned created a code to live his life by, saying x is right and y is wrong. He taught this code to his eldest son, who emulated him. To the rest of his children, he taught stories, things which he thought would inspire them to lead the correct way of life. Bran remembers his father telling them about The White Bull, Arthur Dayne, and the Dragonknight. The problem was that Ned knew that his code did not always fit every situation. He knew that sometimes you had to compromise. He'd done it himself, several times over. He didn't explain that to his children, ever. Sansa would've been a very different child had Ned explained to her the violence and cruelty he'd witnessed during the war. So would Bran.

Ned's problem was that he was a nice man. And I use the word "nice" deliberately. He was a good father. He understood his children well, but he didn't understand the world. Tywin's problem was the opposite. He was a hard man, one who understood the necessity of doing the cruel thing. He understood the world, but he did not understand his children. Both of them made mistakes as a result of this fundamental difference.

I do not share your judgment of Ned.

Ned took Bran (and probably Robb and Jon, before) to watch the execution of a man. How can that be called "not explaining them the world as it is"?

Ned's problem was different. He didn't realise, when he came to KL, that this wasn't the North. In the North, things are different. Without going into too much detail I think Ned educated his children well enough for a life in Winterfell, and he understood the world up there well enough. That nothing is the same in KL is not really his fault, only that he didn't realise that soon enough.

While scheming, intrigues, money etc. are a big topic in this book, this is mostly something that matters for big wealthy trading cities. You can't expect the same kind of dynamics in the North, or, say, in the Iron Islands, etc. It bothers me that you'd call Ned a "bad" parent or ruler just because he's no schemer. Nobody calls Drogo a bad ruler and he wasn't really scheming either.

[Abolesco]

Forgive me if it has been said in the thread and I missed it, but I keep seeing references to Cersei not being quite as guilty of Joff's personality because Tommen and Myrcella (sp?) seem to be well-natured children. I disagree. In Cersei's eyes Tommen and/or Myrcella would never reign as king or queen, that honor would fall on Joffrey as soon as Robert isn't in the picture. I could very much see Cersei treating the younger children lovingly because they never would conceivably have a need for a different personality, while Joff would need to be a molded in such a way to rule (or be ruled by proxy from Cersei) the kingdoms.

I liken it to Brandon being taught to be a Lord over Ned, or Robb the same while Ned fills his other children's eyes with rainbows and puppies.

So yeah, I definitely blame Cersei for a large part of Joff's horrid personality. He may have been a bad seed at the start, but she made him worse. I think its a bit telling that before he was king he would listen to Tyrion after being slapped (a few times). I always saw him as the spoiled brat that everybody knew was going to be king, including himself, so he was never properly reigned in.

[Myrish swan]

I like some of the responses in here but I'd say that to simply excuse their actions. Asha Greyjoy is openly opposing the traditions of her people, Brienne, and Arya (though more reactionary), all are females who are more action oriented and aren't resorting to sleeping with men to get what they want. As another poster said, Cersei sleeps with men almost as her opening salvo in many of her schemes. It just seems reckless.

snip

Not going to apologize for calling Cersei what she is. I'm sorry if the terms didn't sit with you well but, guess what, she wants to get treated like a man, she complains that she should be a son, says that all the other Lannisters/Baratheons aren't man enough then she should get treated on equal terms right? I'll phrase it in softer terms if you like:

I find Cersei Lannister to be a woman of ill repute and one that would benefit from actually being treated as she demands, as a man, when she recklessly insults, violates, and threatens men to a point that, had she in fact been a man, would get more than a smack, probably the sharp edge of a sword in a duel or murdered in cold blood.

Wow, so after everything Cersei's done, the worst thing you can call her is a prostitute? Not a tyrant, not a murderer, not a sociopath, not a megalomaniac, but a hooker is your crowning insult? Wow.

And do you think its fair to prostitutes in general to identify them with Cersei, a woman who murders and condones the torture of numerous innocent people? Considering the fact that in general, prostitutes are poor, desperate girls and women who amongst the most abused, violated and generally mistreated people in the population? Do you have some great issue with prostitutes in general, or are you merely using this unfortunate profession because you (for some reason) see it as the most insulting, degrading thing you can hurl at a woman?

Regarding Cersei's sexual behavior-- you're right, it is reckless and stupid. However, in some instances (like the Lancel situation) she is pretty much cornered and takes the best route available to her. Amusingly, though GRRM portrays Cersei's using sex as a weapon as evil, he also takes every opportunity to show Cersei's plans backfiring, so he can show her being "put in her place," and humiliated on a sexual level. For instance, what was the point of showing the creepy Kettleblack dude humiliating and dominating Cersei? I think I can guess.

However, I do think you're right about one thing-- Cersei using her sexuality to get ahead is presented as something evil in these books. Along with naked ambition for power in and of itself (which Brienne, Asha, and Arya do not processes), GRRM seems to regard women using sex to get ahead as the height of all evil. (Never mind the fact that they're in a world were few options are left open to them. They are just using what they've got, like so many of the male characters do without such disapproval by the author.)

Cersei’s willingness to uses sex to get ahead is put forth as evidence of her depraved nature. (Needless to say you agree with this assessment yourself.) The only other woman who uses sex to get ahead is Arrianne, and, while not portrayed as straight up evil like Cersei, her machinations lead to the death of her lover and the maiming of a little girl. So clearly Arrianne’s use of her sexuality is supposed to be seen as wrong and destructive. But in the end, Arrianne is not an evil woman, but merely a stupid, stupid girl who needs to learn to listen to daddy. She is put in her place in the end.

And to those who are going to claim that there is no gender bias on this issue, simply compare the portrayals of Cersei and Arrianne to Littlefinger. Unlike Cersei and Arrianne, GRRM does not portray LF’s using sex to get ahead as something that either degrades or defines him. It is simply something that he does as part of his plans. And rather than stripping LF of his dignity, as he constantly does with Cersei, GRRM portrays LF as something of a stud during his wedding night with Lysa. It is Lysa herself who is degraded and made to look like the monster.

I like some of the responses in here but I'd say that to simply excuse their actions. Asha Greyjoy is openly opposing the traditions of her people, Brienne, and Arya (though more reactionary), all are females who are more action oriented and aren't resorting to sleeping with men to get what they want. As another poster said, Cersei sleeps with men almost as her opening salvo in many of her schemes. It just seems reckless.

Yes, but your issue with Cersei using sex as a weapon clearly has little to nothing to do with the “recklessness” of her behavior. You seem to regard Cersei’s behavior (of using sex to get ahead) as overtly offensive/ insulting to men, for some reason. However, how is Cersei using sex as a means to get ahead evil, per say?

At this point, it would be easy to fall back on the excuse that “Cersei kills people, etc.” Very true. However, notably, this was not your number one issue with her that you brought out in your post. Out of all the evil things Ceresei has done, her sleeping with some guys to get what she wants is the thing you single out and take issue with.

So, just for the record, I’ve always wondered, how is this evil? If the guys she sleeps with to get ahead are willing to let themselves be used, then can you blame her for using them? And somehow I’m guessing you don’t hold LF in nearly as much contempt, who uses sex to get ahead himself. And is EVERY bit as much of a whore as Cersei is.

Honestly, Cersei using sex to get ahead is not wrong or right, its just another weapon to be used. The reason why women using sex to get ahead is often portrayed as evil is because it is something that threatens certain (oftentimes insecure) men, who need to put such women in their place by dubbing them whores.

Honestly, I think women using their sexuality to get ahead is something GRRM finds highly threatening, and portrays very negatively.

[apt54]

Cat. She doomed Rob's war effort the moment that she released Jaime, and saved Cersei's ass by allowing Tyrion to live.

Granted, Cersei has done some dumb shit, but at the end of the day the Lannisters are still in power while the Starks are dead or exiled.

Also, I really like him, but Ned hurt his family more than Tywin.

Lannisters are in power? Tywin is dead, Tyrion is exiled, Cersei is imprisoned, Tommen is in the clutches of the small council. Sure, Jaime and Kevan are of sound mind and may make some difference, but with all their merits they will not be able to survive a horde of enraged Tyrells.

Lannister's are virtually f***ed. All the hard work Tywin and Tyrion have been pouring into prosperity of the family for 2 hard, brutal years, has been rendered obsolete by Cersei in a matter of months. That is a fact.

[Myrish swan]

Lannisters are in power? Tywin is dead, Tyrion is exiled, Cersei is imprisoned, Tommen is in the clutches of the small council. Sure, Jaime and Kevan are of sound mind and may make some difference, but with all their merits they will not be able to survive a horde of enraged Tyrells.

Lannister's are virtually f***ed. All the hard work Tywin and Tyrion have been pouring into prosperity of the family for 2 hard, brutal years, has been rendered obsolete by Cersei in a matter of months. That is a fact.

Which would not have happened if Tyrion had not murdered his father. Why did Cersei become regent? Because her dad died. And why did her dad die? Because TYRION (whom you present as so fabulous, hardworking, and great for his family) murdered him. If Tywin would have lived, Cersei would have been sent back to Casterly Rock, and he would have ruled, giving the realm years of peace and prosperity. However, thanks to Tyrion's selfish, spiteful actions, Tywin never got to do that.

Also-- Jaime set Tyrion free, then gave him the motive for murder.

[Luin]

Which would not have happened if Tyrion had not murdered his father. Why did Cersei become regent? Because her dad died. And why did her dad die? Because TYRION (whom you present as so fabulous, hardworking, and great for his family) murdered him. If Tywin would have lived, Cersei would have been sent back to Casterly Rock, and he would have ruled, giving the realm years of peace and prosperity. However, thanks to Tyrion's selfish, spiteful actions, Tywin never got to do that.

Also-- Jaime set Tyrion free, then gave him the motive for murder.

I would just add that Kevan and the "good" Lannisters could have steered Cerseu right but instead they decided that serving a woman has no honor in it and Kevan demanded the regency, and rule over Casterly Rock in return for accepting the Handship. Cersei turned to the advisors she could find and relied on their advice.

Lets not forget who framed Tyrion Lannister, how Tyrion would have let everything go and not killed his father in a crime of passion if Jaime didn't feel the need to confess about Tysha. Jaime letting Tyrion go was the right thing, but he did put his father's life in danger the moment he informed him Tysha wasn't a prostitute she was your wife and our father had her gang raped using me to convince you she is a whore. Cersei is bad because of her murders and torturing people with Qyburn (who will rightly share her fate if she cracks to the High Septon). There is nothing wrong with her using sex as a weapon considering she was taught nothing else and has no other weapons.

[Myrish swan]

I find Cersei Lannister to be a woman of ill repute and one that would benefit from actually being treated as she demands, as a man, when she recklessly insults, violates, and threatens men to a point that, had she in fact been a man, would get more than a smack, probably the sharp edge of a sword in a duel or murdered in cold blood.

Umm… okay. You obviously feel pretty threatened by Cersei’s willingness to use sex to get ahead. As does GRRM, or at least he presents her that way. Honestly, Cersei is the nightmare of a certain sort of man—geeky, shy, poor with women, sexually insecure; the sort of guy who’s masculinity is threatened so easily that he cannot abide women who thirst for power on the same level as other men do, and fears women who will use their sexuality to get ahead. Such men generally pathetically reassert themselves by putting on an act and lording it over those women vulnerable enough to have to pretend to like them… prostitutes.

Tyrion is such a man, so is Robert Baratheon. The fact that these guys can’t laugh off silly insults to their masculinity thrown at them by their significant others without getting violent is significant. It pretty much proves the truth of both Shae and Cersei’s gibes—that neither Robert nor Tyrion is a real adult worthy of respect. (Those two scenes, where Tyrion slaps Shae and Robert hits Cersei, are very similar, imo, and very similarly portrayed. In both cases, GRRM's sympathy is clearly with the man. Though he does portray the scenes with just enough ambiguity to avoid angering the females in his audience; these females can (and do) always claim that GRRM does not approve of Tyrion or Robert's violence here, and is merely showing the misogynistic culture of Westeros.)

Any decent guy confident in his masculinity would have laughed off the comments of Cersei or Shae. Or, if angry, a healthy, confident guy may respond with some nasty insults of his own. However, resorting to hitting is just pathetic and, imo, indicative of a highly insecure, pathetic individual.

I like some of the responses in here but I'd say that to simply excuse their actions. Asha Greyjoy is openly opposing the traditions of her people, Brienne, and Arya (though more reactionary), all are females who are more action oriented and aren't resorting to sleeping with men to get what they want

No, you’re right, they don’t. (And GRRM’s portrayal of these “good” women who would never, ever use sex to get ahead—or even consider such a thing—is yet more evidence of his many issues with women who are willing to use sex to get ahead, and his need to demonize such women.) However, how does this fact prove that Cersei sleeping with guys to get what she wants from them is evil?

Honestly, this, like the rest of the arguments in your post, strike me as pretty weak. Here you say that since Asha, Arya, and Brienne never use sex to achieve their ends, the fact that Cersei does so is clearly evil. You also somehow connect Cesei’s being “a woman of ill repute” with the fact that she “insults, violates, and threatens men…” When? And how? Cersei does all sorts of evil stuff in AFFC, and people in general (men and women) suffer. I have no idea what that has to do with her sexual behavior. Nor am I clear on how (you claim) she insults and violates men in general anymore than she does with women. Your anger at Cersei’s sexual behavior, and your feelings that this is an insult to men in general, are very interesting. However, I’m going to have to reiterate the fact that this seems to have less to do with Cersei, and more to do with your own thoughts.

[David Selig]

Cercei by far.

The vast majority of the problems for the Starks came because Ned and Robb were the two most clueless politically major nobles in Westeros who made blunder after blunder. Catelyn's mistakes were only a small part of the reason for the collapse of the Stark family.

On the other hand, Cercei for most of the books had Tyrion and Tywin, two experts on politics, helping the cause of House Lannister, yet still managed to screw up almost everything by the end of AFFC even though she was left in a really strong position at the end of SoS. Not to mention that her reckless incestuous love affair would've ruined the Lannister family earlier if Ned wasn't so clueless.

[mormont]

Umm… okay. You obviously feel pretty threatened by Cersei's willingness to use sex to get ahead. As does GRRM, or at least he presents her that way. Honestly, Cersei is the nightmare of a certain sort of man—geeky, shy, poor with women, sexually insecure; the sort of guy who's masculinity is threatened so easily that he cannot abide women who thirst for power on the same level as other men do, and fears women who will use their sexuality to get ahead. Such men generally pathetically reassert themselves by putting on an act and lording it over those women vulnerable enough to have to pretend to like them… prostitutes.

Tyrion is such a man, so is Robert Baratheon. The fact that these guys can't laugh off silly insults to their masculinity thrown at them by their significant others without getting violent is significant. It pretty much proves the truth of both Shae and Cersei's gibes—that neither Robert nor Tyrion is a real adult worthy of respect. (Those two scenes, where Tyrion slaps Shae and Robert hits Cersei, are very similar, imo, and very similarly portrayed. In both cases, GRRM's sympathy is clearly with the man. Though he does portray the scenes with just enough ambiguity to avoid angering the females in his audience; these females can (and do) always claim that GRRM does not approve of Tyrion or Robert's violence here, and is merely showing the misogynistic culture of Westeros.)

Any decent guy confident in his masculinity would have laughed off the comments of Cersei or Shae. Or, if angry, a healthy, confident guy may respond with some nasty insults of his own. However, resorting to hitting is just pathetic and, imo, indicative of a highly insecure, pathetic individual.

No, you're right, they don't. (And GRRM's portrayal of these "good" women who would never, ever use sex to get ahead—or even consider such a thing—is yet more evidence of his many issues with women who are willing to use sex to get ahead, and his need to demonize such women.) However, how does this fact prove that Cersei sleeping with guys to get what she wants from them is evil?

Honestly, this, like the rest of the arguments in your post, strike me as pretty weak. Here you say that since Asha, Arya, and Brienne never use sex to achieve their ends, the fact that Cersei does so is clearly evil. You also somehow connect Cesei's being "a woman of ill repute" with the fact that she "insults, violates, and threatens men…" When? And how? Cersei does all sorts of evil stuff in AFFC, and people in general (men and women) suffer. I have no idea what that has to do with her sexual behavior. Nor am I clear on how (you claim) she insults and violates men in general anymore than she does with women. Your anger at Cersei's sexual behavior, and your feelings that this is an insult to men in general, are very interesting. However, I'm going to have to reiterate the fact that this seems to have less to do with Cersei, and more to do with your own thoughts.

It's always a bit disconcerting to hear someone opine so forcefully about the attitudes of someone you know, especially when those opinions flat-out contradict most of what you know about that person.

For the record, none of the opinions or attitudes you're attributing to GRRM bear any resemblance to what he actually thinks or feels about women at all. I say this not for the name-dropping 'I know GRRM and you don't' appeal to authority, but because someone's got to point this out. It's one thing to say that the text suggests approval of a certain attitude - but your bit about GRRM's cunning deployment of 'ambiguity' is really a roundabout admission that it doesn't, certainly not with the clarity you are claiming. And to claim some special insight into the 'real' belief or attitudes of an author as a person, disparaging the interpretations of those who disagree as deluded rather than admitting that they're perfectly valid alternative readings, well... that's not really discussing the books. That's grinding an axe. It achieves little but causing mild annoyance to people who know the man, and undermining the very good points that you raise in addition.

A lot of the above is quite insightful and I wouldn't disagree at all about the points you make re: Robert and Tyrion's character. But please, drop the mind-reading about what GRRM 'really' thinks about women.

[em388480]

Ned.

btw I don't think that how sympathetic either of the characers is has anything to do with judging how much they have harmed their families (politically or psychologically 'worse' for their families we are talking about here?).

Either way, my vote is for Cersei too. She's the weakest link among the Lannisters, she's the cause for the war and almost everything bad for the Lannisters comes from her (*cough*Joffrey*cough*) and her stupidity.

The question in itself is unfair. Ned, as far as we are shown, is loved by his own people as well as his family. He raised them all pretty damn well, with the exceptions of maybe Arya and Rickon. Had he never left Winterfell they would be quite safe and sound - any threats coming from the Southern lands would easily be turned away by any of Ned's northern armies.

Their family gets pulled into a struggle they couldn't have hoped to imagine - they are secluded and not exposed to what goes on in the King's court. After Ned is gone, he has no control over what happened to his family.

[em388480]

Tyrion is such a man, so is Robert Baratheon. The fact that these guys cant laugh off silly insults to their masculinity thrown at them by their significant others without getting violent is significant. It pretty much proves the truth of both Shae and Cerseis gibesthat neither Robert nor Tyrion is a real adult worthy of respect. (Those two scenes, where Tyrion slaps Shae and Robert hits Cersei...)

You must be a woman, judging by your full post. Using sexuality is generally something only women can do, and displaying Cesei wantonly using this power of hers is done to display her animal-like behavior and thirst for power.

While Cersei is presented as she is, it's because they want to show her willing to do anything to attain power. You're judge of Tyrion is correct - he has minor mental issues with being a dwarf and trying to overcome it in their society.

Robert hittin Cersei is a man fed up with being pushed around by someone he can't stand, constantly trying to impose herself on him. Had Cersei been a man, he would've had her killed a long time ago. Him losing his temper and striking her is understandable... she's an annoying pest constantly trying to drive him apart from his friends and those he trusts so that he is surrounded by her people.

[Nukelavee]

I'll say it again, Swan - you have some very skewed or one sided views of gender politics and tactics.

Not to be insulting, but it sounds you're quoting a scene from Sex and the City.

Cersei uses sex as a tool for manipulation. Now, I'll agree, some men DO find women who are, umm, comfortable with using sex like that threatening, but...lot of men just find it pathetic and offensive.

I do - I had an ex who constantly tried it, which led to fights, simply because I was insulted by her assumption that I could be influenced that way. Often as not..I simply refused to put out, not from fear, but out of spite.

Plus - sex is a pathetically weak tool to use, on it's own. That's why Cersei fails - she thinks that the merest taste of her is enough to bind somebody to her aggenda permantly.

Sex didn't work when she offered it to Ned, it didn't serve to keep that Kettleblack's mouth shut, it looks like it's backfired with Lancel, and it's not bringing Jaimie back to save her.

She uses sex the way Robert uses his fists - as a cheap power demonstration, and it's just as vile as hitting a woman.

No offense, but you seem to have a very shallow understanding of the male mind. Reminds of back when i shared a house with 4 girls back in college: One day Paula wnet on a rant about some guy who couldn't get it up the night before...I pointed out that, hey, a hard on isn't automatic, sometimes, not getting it up means "hey, you really aren't doing it for me".

Mind you, saying to the earlier mentioned ex "it take more than being cute and on your back" cost me a molar. Well, it could have been the rest of what I said, but I'm not certain that line is suitable for here.

[The Undead Martyr]

How could anyone compare the two? They were clearly meant for contrast, the good mother and the bad mother. Catelyn is repeatedly portrayed as empathetic, kind, selfless, and considerate, as well as offering wise counsel on several occassions.

Cersei is utterly incapable of empathy, is selfish, far from kind, and utterly unconcerned with the repercussions of her actions. She lives to assert herself in the power structure, and to promote her children's interests.

[mormont]

You must be a woman, judging by your full post. Using sexuality is generally something only women can do, and displaying Cesei wantonly using this power of hers is done to display her animal-like behavior and thirst for power.

While Cersei is presented as she is, it's because they want to show her willing to do anything to attain power. You're judge of Tyrion is correct - he has minor mental issues with being a dwarf and trying to overcome it in their society.

Robert hittin Cersei is a man fed up with being pushed around by someone he can't stand, constantly trying to impose herself on him. Had Cersei been a man, he would've had her killed a long time ago. Him losing his temper and striking her is understandable... she's an annoying pest constantly trying to drive him apart from his friends and those he trusts so that he is surrounded by her people.

Yeah, now this on the other hand... this is just nonsense. There's a line between explaining and making excuses, and you're well over on the side of making excuses for Robert there. Adults have to deal with people they can't stand but who are part of their lives all the time. It is not an excuse for using violence. There's never any excuse for doing what Robert did.

As for the notion that generally only women use their sexuality... again, be serious. Even in the books, there's no doubt that Jaime takes advantage of his sexual attractiveness socially, even if he does not get romantically entangled with women. So do Loras and Renly, with the same caveat for different reasons: and of course their relationship provides both with political power, so you could argue that's another example. Robert traded on his sexuality as a young man. LF manipulates Lysa by using her attraction to him, which we know is at least partly sexual. Then there's Theon. The list goes on. The main difference is that the men tend to use their sexuality either to get sex, plain and simple, or to increase their general social standing, rather than to get political power. But that's usually because those holding such power are not potential sexual partners. As the cases of Lysa and LF (or to a lesser extent Renly and Loras) show, where men can use their sexuality to get power, they will.

Cersei's 'thirst for power' is no stronger than that of LF, Tywin, Viserys, or a host of other male characters and you certainly cannot argue that the author meant to show her as 'animal-like'. Sheesh.

[Nukelavee]

To follow up what Mormont pointed out - It's not that there is anything "animal-like" to using sex as a tool, it's just foolish to rely on it so heavily.

Any harm Cersie did to her family was due to being too arrogant to do things effectively, instead, she relied on short-term solutions.

Petyr is an example of a person who can adjust to changes without losing momentum, Cersie is like a person moving because she can't stop or she will fall, but doesn't have any real control over her footing, either.

[apt54]

Which would not have happened if Tyrion had not murdered his father. Why did Cersei become regent? Because her dad died. And why did her dad die? Because TYRION (whom you present as so fabulous, hardworking, and great for his family) murdered him. If Tywin would have lived, Cersei would have been sent back to Casterly Rock, and he would have ruled, giving the realm years of peace and prosperity. However, thanks to Tyrion's selfish, spiteful actions, Tywin never got to do that.

Also-- Jaime set Tyrion free, then gave him the motive for murder.

Which happened, ultimately, why? Because crazy bitch had the imp imprisoned and framed for something he had not done.

Tell me, would Tywin have died if Cersei had not had Tyrion thrown into jail?

Cersei is an idiot. period.

[jlk7e]

She isn't trained or naturally able enough to be able to do without the right advice, and by walking into power she assures herself she won't get it because people capable of giving that advice are too "honorable" (at least when the issue is female rule) to ever serve under her. She initially comes up with a list of Hands of the King, and for the most part they say no.

This is ridiculous. Kevan won't serve under her because she's committing incest with her brother, not because she's a woman. She doesn't even bother to ask the other competent candidates that Kevan suggests (Mathis Rowan and Randyll Tarly), because she's ridiculously paranoid about anybody from the Reach. Cersei makes her own bed in A Feast for Crows.

Look at her Council: she appoints either worthless, untrustworthy adventurers (Waters, Qyburn, Merryweather) or elderly incompetents (Swift, Rosby). Besides Jaime, Pycelle, of all people, is generally the one giving her the best advice.

[jlk7e]

I would just add that Kevan and the "good" Lannisters could have steered Cerseu right but instead they decided that serving a woman has no honor in it and Kevan demanded the regency, and rule over Casterly Rock in return for accepting the Handship. Cersei turned to the advisors she could find and relied on their advice.

Also ridiculous. Kevan won't serve under Cersei because she had an incestuous affair with her own brother and raised her eldest son to be a monster. Cersei also rejects the actually competent advisors her uncle nonetheless suggests, because she refuses to trust anyone who is not completely dependent on her.

Lannisters are in power? Tywin is dead, Tyrion is exiled, Cersei is imprisoned, Tommen is in the clutches of the small council.

The small council is made up of Lannister loyalists Pycelle and Harys Swift. Jaime and Daven Lannister are in charge of the large army that has just taken Riverrun. Kevan will probably be returning to King's Landing to take up the regency.

[jlk7e]

When we're talking about women who use sex as a weapon, shouldn't we mention Arianne Martell? She quite clearly does this with Arys (even if she also seems to like him - but Cersei also seems to actually like the Kettleblacks), but nobody seems to think she's evil. This might perhaps be because Cersei is an awful person for all sorts of reasons having nothing to do with using sex as a weapon.