Cersei vs. Catelyn: Who is worse for their family?

[Ran]

1. She says she doesn't want him harmed, but she seems to have only meant what the jailor did, not what Lysa did so even ignoring the beatings (pretending a knight guarded his cell) he is still being put in a situation where he is being forced to confess.

"She seems" is your opinion. In my own, she she clearly has lost control in the situation and has no power to stop her Lysa treating Tyrion how she wants. She did not understand how screwy Lysa was.

2. She would be able to have more than enough guard to defend her on the way to the Eyrie or Winterfell.

Eh? She notes she had one elderly knight with her. Do you mean, she could have revealed herself and called for more... ? Do you not realize that she was trying to hide her identity and get back to the North without anyone knowing she had been in King's Landing or the riverlands? Did you miss that she tried to hide herself from Tyrion, because she didn't want to declare herself or give him the knowledge that she was present?

Again, look at her own thoughts. She decides she'll continue to Winterfell with Rodrik. Tyrion enters. She tries to hide, but Marillion calls attention to them, and now Tyrion -- the alleged hand behind the assassin that came after Bran, whose family has been accused of the murder of Jon Arryn -- is there, he knows she's there, he'll very shortly realize that she's come back from King's Landing in secret, he may even notice her hands are crippled with wounds. If he goes to King's Landing with that knowledge, she fears that it could spell the doom of Ned and her daughters: the Lannisters will figure out why she was down there, they'll also realize it likely failed, and they'll move on Ned before Ned moves on them.

She chose to capture Tyrion in a massive miscalculation. If she thought capturing Tywin's youngest son would help the Stark Cause she massively miscalculated. None of the characters involved even Cersei intend their actions to go badly they sometimes work and sometimes are disasters for their houses. Just because she thought it would do well doesn't make it a good decision.

She thought releasing Jaime would do good also and that to backfired on a grand scale.

Not really. It failed to get her daughters back. That's about it. The idea that the Red Wedding wouldn't have happened if Jaime were still a hostage was a canard -- Tywin Lannister was already in negotiations with the Freys and Roose Bolton from the very start of ASoS, when he didn't know that Jaime was held. Tywin naturally supposed that a situation like the Red Wedding would lead to many hostages, including Edmure and Catelyn, which would preserve Jaime's life.

She doesn't ask for a trial by the King, or by a neutral judge. What you described is essentially wanting a trial with a fixed verdict. That isn't justice and it isn't honorable. She also isn't stupid, she knows that the sky cells are not something anyone endures very long.

How can she ask for a trial by Robert or some neutral judge? Who says she didn't try? She certainly thought it unwise, but you didn't tell a lord and his mother in their very seat that they can't hold a trial when they're mentally unbalanced and have this big chip on their shoulder about being able to rule.

Yes she suspects his confession isn't what it appears to be, it is a desperate attempt by Tyrion to save his life. If she didn't want crazy Lysa, King Robert, or a neutral judge, trial by combat was the only option. It is openly stated that Tyrion wished he was at least in a Casterly Rock cell, and that the jailor was right he would be leaping out eventually.

She doesn't know that about the sky cells, though. She's never been in one. She only knows the place by reputation. When Lysa claims the sky cells are so awful that they've broken him, Catelyn notes that Tyrion certainly doesn't look broken. She simply doesn't realize -- because he's a good show man -- that it was indeed starting to get at him.

Even forgetting about Tyrion letting Jaime Lannister go was brainless. It wasn't dishonorable but it was the opposite of an informed choice considering Tywin's history of treachery.

See above. But one may add that she wasn't counting on Tywin. She was counting on Tyrion's public promise, who was Hand of the King at that time. The last she knew, Tywin had attempted and failed to cross the Red Fork and was heading somewhere to regroup and try again. None of them knew that the Lannisters were rushing to King's Landing.

Would you want Cat making political decisions for you based on her record? She was manipulated into attacking Tyrion in an effort that backfired, and she was tricked into releasing Jaime in another effort to backfire and that is the end of her important decisions. She can't be blamed for the Red Wedding, but the arrest/release were her miscalculations.

I don't think Littlefinger could have predicted that they'd run into one another an inn. Littlefinger was not in fact intending anyone to attack Tyrion, he merely picked the impish Lannister who wasn't anywhere in the vicinity to pin the blame on so he can keep Ned on a string.

Important political acts on her part include the negotiations to get Robb across, without which he'd never have been able to win the war; counseling against sending Theon to the Iron Islands; advising that Renly needed to be approached; attempting to make peace between the Baratheon brothers...

Yeah, I'd take her as a political advisor over any other Stark, to say the least. And almost any other Tully, though I suppose the Blackfish might be better in some circumstances.

[David Selig]

Catelyn, no doubt about it. The way she handled the capture of Tyrion was beyond stupid, she basically doomed her family by capturing Tyrion and taking him to the Eerye instead of Winterfell. Had she taken Tyrion to Winterfell, he would still be her captive by the time Ned is imprisoned.

Doomed her family? This is beyond ridiculous. If Ned wasn't so incompetent in the Game of Thrones and didn't screw up everything in KL, the Starks would've been fine, it was his blunders which really cost his family, and Robb followed in his footsteps.

[Ran]

David, David, David...

Catelyn should have known Ned was utterly incompetent. Ignorance is no excuse!

[mormont]

Though I am not trying to get busted again for saying what the author “really” thinks of women in general, I think that there is every indication that, in the Jaime/ Cersei relationship, he gives every impression of identifying completely with Jaime. He encourages the reader to feel outrage on Jaime’s behalf for Cersei’s infidelity. He refuses to encourage any sympathy whatsoever with Cersei for sleeping with Kettleblack and Lancel and Moonboy, too. And for Jaime, this is the deal breaker, not the fact that Cersei wanted him to maim little girls. And this fact is not cast into question by GRRM at all.

Honestly, it seems as though GRRM is unable (or unwilling) to present a “good” or even morally ambiguous woman who cheats on a man whom he relates to. (Or, at least, this is the impression I get from the text.

Honestly, a far simpler explanation for this is that these comments are made by Jaime in his POV and thus reflect his feelings and not the author's.

You seem unwilling to concede the possibility that the author might not completely endorse sentiments expressed by a character you believe he identifies with ('completely' or not). But reading the same chapters, I came away with a very clear sense that the author was actually going out of his way to portray Jaime's feelings of outrage over Cersei's sexual betrayal as immature and selfish. There's no mature coming to terms there, only self-pity: and it's very clear that the author is deliberately setting out to show it as such. If he wanted us to be outraged on Jaime's behalf, he'd have Jaime talk to a sympathetic ear and have that character endorse his feelings. Instead, we're given an obsessive litany inside Jaime's head, a reaction that anyone with any emotional maturity beyond the adolescent level should see clearly as self-pity. Which leads me to conclude this is how it is intended to be seen - the only other alternative is that the author actually thinks this is a reasonable reaction for Jaime to have, which would mean that he is emotionally immature himself. Not a reasonable conclusion to draw.

Cersei's POVs, on the other hand, clearly regard the same actions very differently. She's not portrayed as enjoying the sexual activity for its own sake, for example. We'd expect that if the author's intent was to 'demonise' her for her sexuality, then she should be taking pleasure in the act. But she actively tries to avoid having to have sex with Kettleblack, and has sex with Lancel for emotional comfort as much as sexual release (although it's a fairly sick sort of emotional comfort in many ways). And she clearly doesn't think what she's done is unforgivable. (Nor do I, and nor does GRRM, I suspect.)

The way Cersei is demonized for cheating on Jaime is much the same as the way Shae is demonized for betraying Tyrion. In both cases, the man in question “loves” a woman, and is “loyal” to her by remaining sexually monogamous. This is portrayed as unquestionably virtuous on the part of the men, proof that their love is “true” and deep. (Never mind the fact that it almost seems as though the sexual fidelity of the men in question is not admirable, as it is presented, but somewhat creepy. Far better that they sleep around and actually enjoy themselves than they remain loyal to one woman, then become murderously angry when she does not do the same thing or return their love.) They both claim to feel “true love” for the woman in question (and their feelings are portrayed as virtuous and sincere.)

This could not be more wrong: and honestly, again simply seems based on the assumption that if the author, in your view, 'identifies' with a character then any feeling that character expresses must be regarded uncritically as wholly reflecting the author's own feelings.

In fact, when Tyrion in his POV reflects on his 'love' for Shae, he spends most of that time acknowledging that his feelings for her are not reciprocated, that they're shallow and foolish and caused by his own desperate emotional weakness, that they are not 'true' love and that he is fooling himself. The author goes out of his way to show this, almost labouring the point that no, Tyrion's feelings for Shae are not sincere and virtuous true love and that they are a little creepy - and that Tyrion himself is aware of that. His reaction to her 'betrayal' has to be read in that light.

Jaime is a different kettle of fish, I'll concede. But again, I can see no other way to read Jaime's reflections on Cersei but as the thoughts of someone in arrested emotional development. His interactions with Tywin are similar: in fact one could argue that Jaime's whole character is that of a man stuck emotionally in adolescence, that he hasn't moved on from that teenage wonderkid he once was. And I see no other reasonable reading of that, than that it is how the author intends us to see him. Jaime's love is portrayed as sincere, all right - but desperately immature and self-involved. Again, unless you assume that the author himself doesn't have a clue about emotional depth or the complexities of the human heart (which would require us to ignore the bulk of his writing career), we have to assume this is not meant to be a one-dimensional black-and-white story of the true lover betrayed.

However, it is blatantly obvious that they only love an idea in their head that has nothing to do with the woman in question whatsoever.

Indeed. The author does make this clear. Your reading would suggest that this must be more or less unintentional, on GRRM's part, because if deliberate this doesn't fit with the idea that this is a portrayal of 'true' or 'virtuous' love.

(Again, this is not portrayed as a flaw at all of Jaime or Tyrion—besides the fact that they were over trusting/ blinded by love—but of the evil women who willfully, maliciously “fooled” them about their true nature.)

Nope. This is unquestionably portrayed as a flaw on the part of both Tyrion and Jaime, though not (I'll admit) 100% their fault. Still, as I said, the author does go to some lengths to have Tyrion repeatedly point out his own culpability.

When they “find out” about the women they “loved”, love turns to hatred in disgust in about two seconds flat. (Something that you would not think would be the case if you truly loved someone.)

But that makes perfect sense if you assume that the author does not intend these relationships to be portrayed as mature, true love. Again, your criticism only works if we start from the premise that the author is just a bad writer.

Following this, these “good guys,” become murderously angry with their former “loves,” and want them dead. They proceed to either do it themselves (Tyrion) or sit back and let others do it. In any case, the reader is encouraged to cheer.

Cersei isn't dead yet, but in neither scene is there any evidence that the author is encouraging us to cheer.

[Myrish swan]

You must be a woman, judging by your full post. .

Yup. And my screen name. I don't think a whole lot of guys would call themselves "swan."

Using sexuality is generally something only women can do,

Umm.... Littlefinger? (In real life, one could bring up numerous examples of men using their sexuality for profit as well-- male prostitutes, hot young guys who marry much older women for money (trophy husbands?), etc.

You must be a woman, judging by your full post. Using sexuality is generally something only women can do, and displaying Cesei wantonly using this power of hers is done to display her animal-like behavior and thirst for power.

As opposed to, say, Littlefiger sleeping with Lysa Tully for purely humanitarian reasons? Oh no, that's right... he did it out of "a thirst for power." Just like Cersei. But was not portrayed negatively at all for it, and was, in fact, made to look like something of a stud.

Honestly, those who think there is no gender bias when it comes to using sex to get ahead in these books need only compare the portrayals of Cersei and Arrianne Martell to Littlefinger. As I mentioned before, with Cersei and Arrianne, the women are made to look like both victimizers and totally stupid idiots (albeit a fundamentally decent idiot in Arianne's case.) The men are made to look like victims. In contrast, in the Lysa/ LF situation, LF is presented with far less overt condemnation and far more neutrality. In fact, form a certain perspective, the guy is almost made to look like something of a stud. Meanwhile, rather than being made to look like the victim (as the men are) Lysa is painted as pathetic, stupid, and hideously grotesque. Even those who I'm sure are going to argue that GRRM portrays LF the same as Cersei and Arianne must admit that Lysa is painted as utterly revolting in all senses.

displaying Cesei wantonly using this power of hers is done to display her animal-like behavior and thirst for power.

Her "animal-like behavior?" That, literally speaking, does not make much sense. Animals, as far as I know, do not exchange sex acts for goods and/ or services. They just have sex for its biological function. (Unless I am hopelessly out of date or something, and they've discovered that some group of baboons in the wild have formed some sort of intricate animal sex trade.) If anything, Cersei using her sexuality to get ahead is "human"-- she's seperating sex from its biological functions.

I'm guessing that you're just calling Cersei "animal-like" to imply she's low and primitive, like an animal.

While Cersei is presented as she is, it's because they want to show her willing to do anything to attain power. You're judge of Tyrion is correct - he has minor mental issues with being a dwarf and trying to overcome it in their society.

Oh, yes, this is how he is portrayed. However, if one looks closely at Tyrion, I think it is clear that his only problem is not "insecurity," but rather pettiness, shallowness, cruelty, vengefullness, selfishness, and misogyny. And honestly, I don't see how many of these qualities are necessarily linked to his dwarfism. Though pains are taken to prove that they are, it has occured to me many times that Tyrion could be any rather mean spirited, shy, awkward, moderately homely (or even average looking) guy of normal height. (Obviously there are females like this, too. At least in equal number to the guys. )

Tyrion seems not so much like someone who's overcome a disability, but someone who's filled with pride and rage at being overlooked his whole life, and not getting the beautiful women he desires. (Somewhat hypocritically, Tyrion seems to feel only indifference, contempt, and disgust for ugly women, like Lolys or the fat inkeeper in book one. I'm still not sure of his reason for mocking the hanging corpse of the ugly, red toothed inkeeper lady in AGOT, besides the fact that physically, she was displeasing to him. I also am not sure how Tyrion gets away with saying such nasty things about Lolys, a poor, mentally handicapped woman, after she has been gang raped by an entire city. And yet we are suppossed to pity him when he looks around at all of the gorgeous women at the feast, and pities himself for not being able to get one?)

Robert hittin Cersei is a man fed up with being pushed around by someone he can't stand, constantly trying to impose herself on him. Had Cersei been a man, he would've had her killed a long time ago. Him losing his temper and striking her is understandable... she's an annoying pest

Amen! Robert was more than justified in hittin the bitch then, dude. And you know what else? Not only was hitting your wife when she talks back to you in an argument totally understandable, it was also, in Robert's place, completely bold and heroic. Who says Robert B. burned out at age 21? In punching Cersei, he was boldly doing what was true and right, despite great personal risk. She's a slim, delicate mother of three, and he's a 6 foot 6, 300-400 pound ex warrior. Who's to say what serious damage his wife could do to him? :ack:

[CatelynFan]

Amen! Robert was more than justified in hittin the bitch then, dude. And you know what else? Not only was hitting your wife when she talks back to you in an argument totally understandable, it was also, in Robert's place, completely bold and heroic. Who says Robert B. burned out at age 21? In punching Cersei, he was boldly doing what was true and right, despite great personal risk. She's a slim, delicate mother of three, and he's a 6 foot 6, 300-400 pound ex warrior. Who's to say what serious damage his wife could do to him?

:thumbsup: Can I just say how much I love your sarcasm?

[Luin]

"She seems" is your opinion. In my own, she she clearly has lost control in the situation and has no power to stop her Lysa treating Tyrion how she wants. She did not understand how screwy Lysa was.

Eh? She notes she had one elderly knight with her. Do you mean, she could have revealed herself and called for more... ? Do you not realize that she was trying to hide her identity and get back to the North without anyone knowing she had been in King's Landing or the riverlands? Did you miss that she tried to hide herself from Tyrion, because she didn't want to declare herself or give him the knowledge that she was present?

Again, look at her own thoughts. She decides she'll continue to Winterfell with Rodrik. Tyrion enters. She tries to hide, but Marillion calls attention to them, and now Tyrion -- the alleged hand behind the assassin that came after Bran, whose family has been accused of the murder of Jon Arryn -- is there, he knows she's there, he'll very shortly realize that she's come back from King's Landing in secret, he may even notice her hands are crippled with wounds. If he goes to King's Landing with that knowledge, she fears that it could spell the doom of Ned and her daughters: the Lannisters will figure out why she was down there, they'll also realize it likely failed, and they'll move on Ned before Ned moves on them.

Not really. It failed to get her daughters back. That's about it. The idea that the Red Wedding wouldn't have happened if Jaime were still a hostage was a canard -- Tywin Lannister was already in negotiations with the Freys and Roose Bolton from the very start of ASoS, when he didn't know that Jaime was held. Tywin naturally supposed that a situation like the Red Wedding would lead to many hostages, including Edmure and Catelyn, which would preserve Jaime's life.

How can she ask for a trial by Robert or some neutral judge? Who says she didn't try? She certainly thought it unwise, but you didn't tell a lord and his mother in their very seat that they can't hold a trial when they're mentally unbalanced and have this big chip on their shoulder about being able to rule.

She doesn't know that about the sky cells, though. She's never been in one. She only knows the place by reputation. When Lysa claims the sky cells are so awful that they've broken him, Catelyn notes that Tyrion certainly doesn't look broken. She simply doesn't realize -- because he's a good show man -- that it was indeed starting to get at him.

See above. But one may add that she wasn't counting on Tywin. She was counting on Tyrion's public promise, who was Hand of the King at that time. The last she knew, Tywin had attempted and failed to cross the Red Fork and was heading somewhere to regroup and try again. None of them knew that the Lannisters were rushing to King's Landing.

I don't think Littlefinger could have predicted that they'd run into one another an inn. Littlefinger was not in fact intending anyone to attack Tyrion, he merely picked the impish Lannister who wasn't anywhere in the vicinity to pin the blame on so he can keep Ned on a string.

Important political acts on her part include the negotiations to get Robb across, without which he'd never have been able to win the war; counseling against sending Theon to the Iron Islands; advising that Renly needed to be approached; attempting to make peace between the Baratheon brothers...

Yeah, I'd take her as a political advisor over any other Stark, to say the least. And almost any other Tully, though I suppose the Blackfish might be better in some circumstances.

Thanks for replying it is nice to get back to civilized debate :cheers:

1. Perhaps you are right, but re-reading the relevant chapter Cat found it suspicious that when the opportunity came Lysa turned Cersei into Tyrion. We could at least agree the Eyrie was a mistake?

2. Fair enough, but if she didn't want to declare herself because of how counter-productive what did she think would happen if Lysa turned out to be completely sane and ordered a real trial the moment she brought Tyrion into her lands? That is entirely theoretical but would that have been any more counter-productive than revealing herself?Of course I should emphasize it was theoretical.

3. I agree the Red Wedding isn't her fault, but releasing Jaime did help the Lannisters while getting the Starks nothing in return. It was an honorable move, but it deprived the House of Stark of a card to play. The point isn't that it made a big difference, it is that when Cat was left with important decisions by herself she did make the wrong ones, unless you count Undead Cat.

4. I suppose it would have been impossible to demand he be handed over to a neutral court after she took him to Lysa, I withdraw that point.

5. It may have been a good idea to find out when she could? Tyrion flying would have been a big blow to her according to her own thoughts.

6. Public promises in this world seem to be worth very little.

7. That is a big part of the point I should have made. It was awhile since I read AGoT cover to cover so I actually went back and re-read the Cat chapters. Her motivations are good, but they generally backfire on a massive scale. That is a big drawback. At least some of Cersei's plots (killing Robert) went well, but none of Cat's plots succeed. The major choices that are hers and hers along to make are arresting Tyrion and releasing Jaime, one is an uninformed accident done spur of the moment where she convinces herself she has no choice, the other is a well thought out and honorable action. Both are disasters for her family. On other things you mentioned some would have been disasters. Renly didn't live long enough to help the Starks, and Stannis would never negotiate with Robb unless that included Robb giving up independence ideas. Theon and the negotiations are better points of hers, but that only brings her to 2/4. Robb also arguably lost the war by the time the Red Wedding came.

[Myrish swan]

I'll say it again, Swan - you have some very skewed or one sided views of gender politics and tactics.

Not to be insulting, but it sounds you're quoting a scene from Sex and the City.

LOL, sorry. I've actually never seen that show... seemed lame to me.

Cersei uses sex as a tool for manipulation. Now, I'll agree, some men DO find women who are, umm, comfortable with using sex like that threatening, but...lot of men just find it pathetic and offensive.

......

No offense, but you seem to have a very shallow understanding of the male mind.

I agree with your first statement here. In my post, I honestly did not mean to suggest that guys in general "feared" women who used sex to get ahead. I agree with you that probably 99.9 percent of men would probably just find it sad and desperate, and, in many situations, obnoxious and unfair. (Honestly, I think women would view most women who use sex to get ahead in today's world the same way.) Of course, I doubt most men or women today would feel disgust and annoyance for a poor, drug addicted prostitute. In that situation, the woman (or guy) in question is unfortunate rather than immoral.

My issue was that the poster I was responding to made a pretty big issue out of Cersei's use of sex to get ahead, indicating that she "degraded and abused men" by sleeping with them for favors, and thus deserved to die. (No doubt Cersei does, in the valid opinion of many, deserve to die, however, I don't think her sexual misadventures qualify as capitol crimes.) My issue with the post that I was responding to was that the poster went on at such length about the evil nature of Cersei's using sex to get ahead, and constantly threw the moniker "whore" at her that he seemed to lose sight of her actual evil deeds. In my post, I was suggesting that the focus on Cersei's sexual "crimes" at the exclusion of all other acts seemed to indicate less about Cersei, more about the poster. (And not, I should point out, that the poster was evil or something, just that he either seemed to be placing a woman's sexual behavior above all else to a ridiculous extent, or that he seemed to feel that "whore" was the worst insult he could throw at a woman. The second thing struck me as particularly ridiculous, since Cersei is a murderer, a torturer, an egoist, a meglomaniac, a tyrant, etc. )

Also, I did point out that I felt that Cersei's sexual behavior was very negatively portrayed in the text, to the point of demonizing her for it.

Plus - sex is a pathetically weak tool to use, on it's own. That's why Cersei fails - she thinks that the merest taste of her is enough to bind somebody to her aggenda permantly.

Sex didn't work when she offered it to Ned, it didn't serve to keep that Kettleblack's mouth shut, it looks like it's backfired with Lancel, and it's not bringing Jaimie back to save her.

Yes, I agree. However, in many of these cases Cersei acted out of desperation.

Also, I can't help but suspect that the negative consequences of her sexual behavior are emphasized at such length for a reason.

She uses sex the way Robert uses his fists - as a cheap power demonstration, and it's just as vile as hitting a woman.

That is a very insightful comparison. I've never thought of that before, but it makes a lot of sense. On both of these cases, they were sort of falling back on their "one weapon." (I actually think Robert is portrayed a lot more sympathetically in this case, however, I won't get into that.) However, I think that using sex to get ahead, while wrong, is not quite as wrong as hitting one's spouse as hard as Robert hits Cersei. (My issue here isn't really even the hitting of women; its the fact that Robert is physically attacking someone so much weaker than him, and doing it with such violence. He hits Cersei so hard she flys across the room, and it bruises the entire right half of her face.)

Cersei generally had sex to get ahead out of desperation and/ or what she saw as necessity to her plans. Robert just hit Cersei because he was angry, frustrated, and, most of all, he knew he could get away with it. And he totally did "have control of himself"; I don't buy that he didn't. As Cersei notes, every time he's gotten violent with her before, he's taken care to do it in places where no one can see. Now, reading between the lines, he's done this thus far out of fear of Jaime's reprisals. So, no, i don't think it's any coincidence that, the first time Robert hits Cersei in a way that leaves a mark for all to see, is when her brother is convieniently away, out of Kings Landing for some time.

[mormont]

As opposed to, say, Littlefiger sleeping with Lysa Tully for purely humanitarian reasons? Oh no, that's right... he did it out of "a thirst for power." Just like Cersei. But was not portrayed negatively at all for it, and was, in fact, made to look like something of a stud.

The portrayal of the LF/Lysa sex doesn't suggest anything of the type, as far as I can see. In fact it verges on the ridiculous. I can see why someone would criticise it for portraying Lysa as a fool, or even mocking her: I can't see any way to read it that makes LF 'look like something of a stud'. Particularly as the author repeatedly portrays LF as rather creepy at other times in the series: the notion that he would suddenly switch to 'LF is a stud' makes no sense.

It would help, when you're making these sorts of assertions about how things are presented in the text, if you could explain what leads you to these conclusions. As it is, you're just making declarations, and for the life of me I can't even see where you're getting them from.

Honestly, those who think there is no gender bias when it comes to using sex to get ahead in these books need only compare the portrayals of Cersei and Arrianne Martell to Littlefinger.

OK. In Arianne 's seduction of Arys, the actual sex is portrayed as healthy and, well, sexy: and in general we are left in little doubt that Arianne is an attractive, independent and intelligent woman who embraces her sexuality, even as she is using it to further her plans. Crucially for the allegation that she's 'made to look like a victimiser', she is shown as having some genuine feeling for Arys and as subsequently regretting the consequences for him of their liaison. Her father does not condemn her for using her sexuality in this way, nor does anyone else, and there's very little suggestion that she was 'an idiot' - only that some aspects of the plot were misguided. In fact, had she seduced Arys in the service of her father's wider goals, it seems likely that he would have thoroughly approved.

In LF's manipulation of Lysa, the actual sex (as stated) is presented in a way that almost approaches ridicule. LF is portrayed as a creep and his interaction with Lysa is unambiguously presented as manipulative and bad. He feels no guilt about it and even murders her when she is of no more use, because she presents a threat to his interest in Sansa - an interest that is consistently presented as unhealthy and creepy. He literally could not be more unambiguously presented as a victimiser in this relationship. There is no neutrality or lack of condemnation, nor any suggestion that he is 'a stud'. Quite the reverse: his boasts about taking Cat's virginity (archetypal 'stud' behaviour) are negatively presented as crude and offensive, and are in fact either total lies or sad self-deception.

Cersei is the more complex case of the three, and already discussed at length. I can see no argument that she is supposed to be 'victimising' Kettleblack - in fact she seems not to be in ultimate control there, since things go farther than she wants, sexually. She isn't using sex 'to get ahead' in her relationship with Jaime or Lancel, or her encounter with Taena, nor even really in her marriage to Robert. Most of the rest of the time, she's guilty of nothing more than flirting with people, which sometimes gets the results she aims for and sometimes doesn't.

Of the three, there is no question that LF is portrayed most negatively and Arianne is portrayed the most positively.

Tyrion seems not so much like someone who's overcome a disability, but someone who's filled with pride and rage at being overlooked his whole life, and not getting the beautiful women he desires. (Somewhat hypocritically, Tyrion seems to feel only indifference, contempt, and disgust for ugly women, like Lolys or the fat inkeeper in book one. I'm still not sure of his reason for mocking the hanging corpse of the ugly, red toothed inkeeper lady in AGOT, besides the fact that physically, she was displeasing to him. I also am not sure how Tyrion gets away with saying such nasty things about Lolys, a poor, mentally handicapped woman, after she has been gang raped by an entire city. And yet we are suppossed to pity him when he looks around at all of the gorgeous women at the feast, and pities himself for not being able to get one?)

Wouldn't disagree with any of this, but it fits badly with this notion that GRRM presents Tyrion in a wholly sympathetic light, unless (again) you're suggesting that all of the above is a result of the author being so bad a writer that he manages to present the character in totally the opposite way than he intended.

[Helen Sky]

She is power hungry, cold hearted, and, fair to say, a slut.

Sorry, but I do get rather fed up of these double standards. Tyrion is far more of a 'slut' yet that doesn't ever count against him does it?

[A wilding]

OK. In Arianne 's seduction of Arys, the actual sex is portrayed as healthy and, well, sexy: and in general we are left in little doubt that Arianne is an attractive, independent and intelligent woman who embraces her sexuality, even as she is using it to further her plans. Crucially for the allegation that she's 'made to look like a victimiser', she is shown as having some genuine feeling for Arys and as subsequently regretting the consequences for him of their liaison. Her father does not condemn her for using her sexuality in this way, nor does anyone else, and there's very little suggestion that she was 'an idiot' - only that some aspects of the plot were misguided. In fact, had she seduced Arys in the service of her father's wider goals, it seems likely that he would have thoroughly approved.

In LF's manipulation of Lysa, the actual sex (as stated) is presented in a way that almost approaches ridicule. LF is portrayed as a creep and his interaction with Lysa is unambiguously presented as manipulative and bad. He feels no guilt about it and even murders her when she is of no more use, because she presents a threat to his interest in Sansa - an interest that is consistently presented as unhealthy and creepy. He literally could not be more unambiguously presented as a victimiser in this relationship. There is no neutrality or lack of condemnation, nor any suggestion that he is 'a stud'. Quite the reverse: his boasts about taking Cat's virginity (archetypal 'stud' behaviour) are negatively presented as crude and offensive, and are in fact either total lies or sad self-deception.

Cersei is the more complex case of the three, and already discussed at length. I can see no argument that she is supposed to be 'victimising' Kettleblack - in fact she seems not to be in ultimate control there, since things go farther than she wants, sexually. She isn't using sex 'to get ahead' in her relationship with Jaime or Lancel, or her encounter with Taena, nor even really in her marriage to Robert. Most of the rest of the time, she's guilty of nothing more than flirting with people, which sometimes gets the results she aims for and sometimes doesn't.

Of the three, there is no question that LF is portrayed most negatively and Arianne is portrayed the most positively.

Well, yes but ...

I agree that a careful reader who thinks about the plot and doesn't uncritically accept the viewpoints of PoVs cannot but agree with all of the above. Still, over the years, a large number of boarders (sometimes it feels like a majority of them) have talked about how they cheered when LF murdered Lysa, or made posts strongly implying that they consider Cersei's sexual behaviour to be the worst aspect of her character. And we are a self selected minority of readers who have generally read the books multiple times and thought about them a good deal.

Now maybe the popularity of these opinions is solely a reflection of our society, but when I see them expressed time and time again I can't but wonder if there isn't more to it.

(Though in fairness, Mrs W's opinion is that it may be down to GRRM's readership being heavily weighted towards teenage boys.)

[mormont]

Well, yes but ...

I agree that a careful reader who thinks about the plot and doesn't uncritically accept the viewpoints of PoVs cannot but agree with all of the above. Still, over the years, a large number of boarders (sometimes it feels like a majority of them) have talked about how they cheered when LF murdered Lysa, or made posts strongly implying that they consider Cersei's sexual behaviour to be the worst aspect of her character. And we are a self selected minority of readers who have generally read the books multiple times and thought about them a good deal.

Now maybe the popularity of these opinions is solely a reflection of our society, but when I see them expressed time and time again I can't but wonder if there isn't more to it.

(Though in fairness, Mrs W's opinion is that it may be down to GRRM's readership being heavily weighted towards teenage boys.)

Well, yes but... ;)

That some readers have sexist attitudes towards Cersei is not in doubt. The question is whether, as alleged, this is the reaction the author was aiming for, or at least is directly attributable to certain things in the text: or whether it is because those readers just have sexist attitudes. After all, a large number of boarders over the years have mentioned how they cheered at Joff's death, but I don't think anyone can argue against the view that the author intends that scene to evoke a sense of pity in the reader, even though the person dying (as with Lysa) is someone they may despise.

If an author writes a complex scene and some readers treat it superficially, that doesn't mean the complexity is not there. It may or may not mean that the author was successful - so far as that goes, I'm open to arguments. But so far as authorial intention goes, which is the debate here, the case can be argued on textual evidence: and it seems to me that the textual evidence strongly indicates that LF's manipulation of Lysa is presented negatively, while Cersei's sexual behaviour is presented in a more complex light. Myrish swan clearly takes a diametrically opposite view, but so far as I can see this requires us to put the text into a metaphorical Procrustean bed - chopping off the bits that don't fit and stretching out other bits until they do.

[Myrish swan]

The portrayal of the LF/Lysa sex doesn't suggest anything of the type, as far as I can see. In fact it verges on the ridiculous. I can see why someone would criticise it for portraying Lysa as a fool, or even mocking her: I can't see any way to read it that makes LF 'look like something of a stud'. Particularly as the author repeatedly portrays LF as rather creepy at other times in the series:

At times. But this is not one of them.

In the series, LF is undeniably a villain, but he is one that the author clearly identifies with and relates to. In stark contrast to Cersei, we are clearly meant to admire Littlefinger’s intelligence, and acknowledge the brilliant architecture of his scams. Unlike Cersei, he’s good at what he does, and it shows.

At this point you will probably imply that I have no proof and am making one of my weak arguments again, etc. , etc.

However, now that we’re on the topic of weak arguments, I’d appreciate it if you’d stop taking my own points, and equating them with some general statement about the author; then proceeding to claim that if I continue to assert my original argument, then I’m making such and such an argument against GRRM. For instance, you argue with my contention that GRRM is on the side of the men in the Jaime/ Cersei and Shae/ Tyrion relationship issues. That in itself is fine. However, you are completely unfair to claim that my maintaining that GRRM has more sympathy with the guys in these situations is basically accusing the author of “emotional insecurity.” In your previous post, and near the end of this one, you build such straw men, and I think that’s unfair. (Especially while you treat these straw men as valid arguments, and claim to other posters that I have no textual support for my own arguments. Or that I simply ignore all of the evidence that does not suit my argument. Pot, kettle, black, etc.)

You were completely correct in an earlier post to call me out for claiming that I “knew” what GRRM thought of women who used sex to get ahead. That was inappropriate to say. I should have stuck to pointing out what in the text made me feel such women were being portrayed negatively, rather than insinuating something about someone I’ve never met. However, I feel that the contentions you’ve made in your last few posts (me arguing that GRRM’s excessive identification with Tyrion blinds him to the latters faults= me claiming that GRRM is a weak writer; or that claiming that GRRM appears to relate more to the males in the cersei/ Jaime, Shae/ Tyrion relationships= me claiming that GRRM is emotionally immature) are not fair themselves. :ack:

It would help, when you're making these sorts of assertions about how things are presented in the text, if you could explain what leads you to these conclusions.

I will if you will.

[Myrish swan]

OK. In Arianne 's seduction of Arys, the actual sex is portrayed as healthy and, well, sexy: and in general we are left in little doubt that Arianne is an attractive, independent and intelligent woman who embraces her sexuality

Okay. Never denied that. Honestly, I don't see what the "hotness" of the sex has to do with anything. The issue is whether Arianne using her sexuality to get ahead is portrayed as something negative, not whether her and Arys had a good time in the sack together.

woman who embraces her sexuality, even as she is using it to further her plans.

But this is not what the issue at hand is. Arrianne is shown using her sexuality to get ahead... with disastrous results. In her last chapter, the princess in the tower, she is portrayed as a moron who thinks she's smart. (Not unlike Cersei.) In some ways, Arianne’s arc is Cersei's done in miniature-- female thinks she's smart, forms convoluted plans, and fails, epically.

Crucially for the allegation that she's 'made to look like a victimiser', she is shown as having some genuine feeling for Arys and as subsequently regretting the consequences for him of their liaison.

Yes, Arianne does express remorse over Arys—which is supposed to indicate that she is not an "evil ambitious bitch," ala Cersei, but a confused, mislead girl whose foolish schemes (involving using her sexuality to bend a man to her will) blow up in her face horrendously.

(At this point, I should note that my point regarding Arianne-- which I pointed out specifically earlier-- was not that she was portrayed as a horrible, wicked person. My point was that GRRM portrayed Arianne using her sexuality to get ahead as something that is wrong, destructive, and stupid in a way that he does not with LF.)

Crucially for the allegation that she's 'made to look like a victimiser', she is shown as having some genuine feeling for Arys and as subsequently regretting the consequences for him of their liaison.

Arianne is not portrayed "as a victimizer?" Not quite. Arianne's sexual manipulations are shown to directly result in her lover’s murder. And the maiming of Myrcella. (In addition to being shown this, we are told it too, to resolve any ambiguity. "How did you get him (Arys Oakheart) to do this for you?" Asks Doran Martell. "I fucked him, father," replies Arianne.) The fact Arianne did not see the possible consequences of her actions re: crowning myrcella and using Aerys is yet more evidence for the fact that she is being purposefully portrayed as far, far less intelligent than she thinks she is.

Clearly, Arianne’s plots (of which her using her sexuality to gain sway over Aerys, Myrcella's main protector) have numerous victims.

Her father does not condemn her for using her sexuality in this way

Doran indicates that it was "children" who did not know any better who were responsible for this (except Darkstar, who is really dangerous.) Presumably, 23-year-old Arianne is one of these "children."

there's very little suggestion that she was 'an idiot' -

Um, are we reading the same books? In addition to her plans which were not just "slightly misguided" as you suggest, but an unmitigated disaster from start to finish, there is her behavior throughout her last POV chapter, the Princess in the Tower.

But first, the "slightly misguided" plans-- clearly, Arianne coming up with such foolish, childish, inept plans is meant to say something about her intelligence and capabilities.

Anyway, in Arianne's last POV chapter, The Princess in the Tower, Arianne is shown thinking well of her own intelligence and whiles, then proceeding to ineptly attempt to manipulate those around her to tell her what's going on/ aid in her escape, only to show her easily being foiled by the simplest people at every turn. It is highlighted that Arianne thinks of her wits as her weapons, however, her feeble attempts at cleverness and failed operations prove her to be silly. (Honestly, Arianne's POV chapter struck me a lot like Cersei's POV chapters in miniature. In both, a silly woman with an unjustifiably high opinion of her intelligence forms convoluted, ridiculous schemes that she thinks will save her. Yet the readers can see only too clearly that said schemes are idiotic, and will inevitably fail. It is left for readers to wait for the woman's downfall-- it’s not a question of if, but when.) Honestly, at best Arianne is portrayed as a ridiculously naive girl who needs to be put in her place, form a lesser opinion of herself, and listen to her daddy.

Her father does not condemn her for using her sexuality in this way, nor does anyone else

Well, the author sure does, by showing what horrible disasters Arriane using her sexuality to attain her ends caused (Aerys death and Myrcella's maiming); by belittling Arianne and/ or putting her in her place by demonstrating that she's not nearly as clever as she thinks she is (either simply none too bright, or childishly naive) in the ways I have already mentioned; and by showing the superior wisdom of the male Doran, who is 10 times wiser than his daughter, and had a plan all along.

(Arianne, it is implied, would have been wise to listen to him all along. Perhaps then she could have avoided leading to Aerys murder and Myrcella's maiming. And though Doran blames himself for not informing Arianne of his plans earlier, Doran himself notes that if he had told Arianne his plans, she never would have been able to keep them a secret. And her 18 year old brother had already been told, so clearly its something about Arianne herself, not just her age, that makes Doran believe that she’s not ready to know his plans.)

[vsthorvs]

Why do people blame Cersei for Joffrey? Think about it. Joffrey loves violence, enjoys Stark breasts, and dies while drinking. That sounds a lot like one of his parents, but not Cersei. Joffrey may not have Baratheon blood, but he is very much like Robert as king. Robert is the man he believes to be his father, and he is the man he models himself after. Cersei had no real control over Joffrey, and I don't blame her for that monster.

That said, Cersei is far worse than Catelyn. She conspires to drive out Tyrion who is the most intelligent of the Lannisters. As regent, she makes the bone headed decision of letting the Church gain millitary power. That has already cost her personally, and it's really only a matter of time before the Church decides to wipe out all the incestuous abominations. Finally she spends the entire fourth book plotting against the Tyrells, who at this point are the only allies the Lannisters have. That's just sheer stupidity.

Unlike Catelyn, who made at least one huge blunder (kidnapping tyrion) but who was always at least thinking about her children, Cersei was selfish, at least in Feast for Crows. She had Tommen beaten for disagreeing with her, and sent away Kevan who may actually be both competent and actually a good guy, because he wouldn't accept her incest.

[Myrish swan]

Why do people blame Cersei for Joffrey? Think about it. Joffrey loves violence, enjoys Stark breasts, and dies while drinking. That sounds a lot like one of his parents, but not Cersei.

LOL, pure win. :bowdown: :lmao:

I especially like the part about "the stark breasts." :spank:

Why do people blame Cersei for Joffrey? Think about it. Joffrey loves violence, enjoys Stark breasts, and dies while drinking. That sounds a lot like one of his parents, but not Cersei. Joffrey may not have Baratheon blood, but he is very much like Robert as king. Robert is the man he believes to be his father, and he is the man he models himself after.

It would crack me up if, in some alternate universes, Robert and Ned both lived, and went on to see Joff and Sansa married. And then, during the ceremony, Joff got drunk, picked up Arya, carried her upstairs, and proceeded to have sex with her right then and there on his wedding bed made up for Sansa.

I imagine that Stannis would get a good laugh at that one, and i'd love to see Robert's face when he tried to explain the whole thing to Ned, "Seriously, dude! I don't know WHERE he got THAT idea from! Truly! I have never known such a thing to happen before!" :smileysex:

Cersei had no real control over Joffrey, and I don't blame her for that monster.

Yeah, Joff is clearly a sociopath, a condition that nature, not nurture, would account for. (Then again, I guess that would be Cersei's fault, too. Since she evilly chose to have Joff with her own brother, as part of an elaborate revenge plot against the "basically good guy" (in GRRM's own words) that she's married to. :rolleyes: Whichever way you spin it, I guess it all basically burns down to this: it is all Cersei's fault. :bang:

That said, Cersei is far worse than Catelyn. She conspires to drive out Tyrion who is the most intelligent of the Lannisters.

Agreed, but both Cersei and Tyrion are plotting against each other in books 2 and 3. Near the end of ASOS, Cersei does genuinely think that Tyrion killed her kid, so I'm not sure she's "conspiring to drive him out," so much as accusing him of a crime he gave every sign of committing.

As regent, she makes the bone headed decision of letting the Church gain millitary power. That has already cost her personally, and it's really only a matter of time before the Church decides to wipe out all the incestuous abominations. Finally she spends the entire fourth book plotting against the Tyrells, who at this point are the only allies the Lannisters have. That's just sheer stupidity.

Agreed... but Cersei's actions in AFFC don't go along wiht her characterization thus far. Whatever.

Unlike Catelyn, who made at least one huge blunder (kidnapping tyrion) but who was always at least thinking about her children, Cersei was selfish, at least in Feast for Crows. She had Tommen beaten for disagreeing with her, and sent away Kevan who may actually be both competent and actually a good guy, because he wouldn't accept her incest.

I always got the feeling that Cersei loved her children deeply. At least until AFFC. Then she doesn't love anyone or anything. Except making the stupidest plans of all time.

Re: Tommen-- I do not recall that part. Despite everyone contending that Cersei is a horrible, evil mother, and that the only reason Tommen and Myrcella turned out okay is because they are kept away from her, she does not seem like such a bad mother,. judging from her interactions with Tommen in AFFC. Sometimes her judgement is bad and she's overprotective, but that's about it.

I'm sure in ADWD, we'll get to see her beating/ abusing Tommen, and attempting to turn him EVIL! (somehow) like she (alegedly) had with Joffrey. :rolleyes: Honestly, the only thing I've learned to expect about Cersei prior to AFFC is to be constantly and creativly reminded of the fact that she has no good qualities, and is responsible for nearly all of the bad things around her. Also, she is apparently the single stupidest person to ever live, and she's going to get fat and ugly by the end of the books.... because all women who are fat and ugly in these books are evil, and because LF said Cersei was going to lose her looks. :ack:

[mormont]

At times. But this is not one of them.

Arguable. LF is here having sex with a woman he doesn't desire, but has deceived into thinking that he loves her. He does this for entirely self-serving reasons. That's creepy, to me. I'd suggest that this is how it actually comes across. The author's choice to portray the sex as he does - with Sansa overhearing the exaggerated cries of her aunt, even while creepy advances are made towards her - suggests that he did not intend that scene to be seen as arousing or for the reader to identify with LF and admire him as a 'stud', but to be somewhat put off by it.

In stark contrast to Cersei, we are clearly meant to admire Littlefinger's intelligence, and acknowledge the brilliant architecture of his scams. Unlike Cersei, he's good at what he does, and it shows.

Well, we're meant to recognise and maybe even respect LF's intelligence. 'Admire', though? That to me implies that we're supposed to root for LF, to some degree. And that's clearly not true. LF is a creepy, treacherous, self-serving, insecure and somewhat pathetic man, and he is all of those things because the author wrote him that way on purpose.

In any case, LF's intelligence is not the issue. Your original claim was about how his sexual behaviour in regard to Lysa is portrayed.

However, now that we're on the topic of weak arguments, I'd appreciate it if you'd stop taking my own points, and equating them with some general statement about the author

Apologies, but so far as I can see, you are still making general statements about the author. You repeatedly assert that the writing throughout the books is 'sexist', for example. Now either that means that the writer is sexist, consciously or not, or that he is incredibly unfortunate, or that he is just such a bad writer that he gives the wrong impression consistently. Any way you cut it, it's a general statement about the author. So is the claim that he identifies 'completely' with certain characters and that we must interpret the text with this in mind.

Where you've made specific points, I think I've addressed them. For example:

For instance, you argue with my contention that GRRM is on the side of the men in the Jaime/ Cersei and Shae/ Tyrion relationship issues. That in itself is fine. However, you are completely unfair to claim that my maintaining that GRRM has more sympathy with the guys in these situations is basically accusing the author of "emotional insecurity."

I'm not sure that's an accurate characterisation of my argument. I actually said:

But reading the same chapters, I came away with a very clear sense that the author was actually going out of his way to portray Jaime's feelings of outrage over Cersei's sexual betrayal as immature and selfish. There's no mature coming to terms there, only self-pity: and it's very clear that the author is deliberately setting out to show it as such. If he wanted us to be outraged on Jaime's behalf, he'd have Jaime talk to a sympathetic ear and have that character endorse his feelings. Instead, we're given an obsessive litany inside Jaime's head, a reaction that anyone with any emotional maturity beyond the adolescent level should see clearly as self-pity. Which leads me to conclude this is how it is intended to be seen - the only other alternative is that the author actually thinks this is a reasonable reaction for Jaime to have, which would mean that he is emotionally immature himself. Not a reasonable conclusion to draw.

If a character is exhibiting self-pity and emotional immaturity, either the author means us to understand that he is emotionally immature, or he does not. If the latter, that implies that the author doesn't recognise that this reaction is emotionally immature. Your claim was that Jaime's reaction was intended to elicit sympathy and show that his love for Cersei was true and genuine. That would seem to rule out the notion that the author actually meant it to be seen as self-pity and emotional immaturity, at least so far as I can see.

I'm basing this on something in the actual text: my argument is about the obsessive, repetitive litany inside Jaime's head. If you have some textual evidence that supports your claim, please provide it.

You were completely correct in an earlier post to call me out for claiming that I "knew" what GRRM thought of women who used sex to get ahead. That was inappropriate to say. I should have stuck to pointing out what in the text made me feel such women were being portrayed negatively, rather than insinuating something about someone I've never met. However, I feel that the contentions you've made in your last few posts (me arguing that GRRM's excessive identification with Tyrion blinds him to the latters faults= me claiming that GRRM is a weak writer; or that claiming that GRRM appears to relate more to the males in the cersei/ Jaime, Shae/ Tyrion relationships= me claiming that GRRM is emotionally immature) are not fair themselves. :ack:

I'm a bit confused, to be honest. Where do you think Tyrion's faults come from? I mean, GRRM created the character, he writes the character: if he is 'blind' to Tyrion's faults, he can't have written those faults deliberately, can he? So he must have written a character that he intended to be seen one way, but actually comes off rather differently, to both you and me.

OK, maybe even the best writers do this sometimes: but isn't it a much more parsimonious and credible explanation that he did mean to write the character as flawed and that far from being 'blind' to Tyrion's faults, he put them in there on purpose? At the very least, you need some better argument to the contrary than that he 'identifies' with the character. Literature is full of characters whose creator 'identified' with them to some degree, but nonetheless wrote them as flawed or even unpleasant people. It would be ridiculous to claim that writers can only identify with 'good' characters.

Okay. Never denied that. Honestly, I don't see what the "hotness" of the sex has to do with anything. The issue is whether Arianne using her sexuality to get ahead is portrayed as something negative, not whether her and Arys had a good time in the sack together.

It's a comparison to the LF/Lysa sex. One of the tools that the author has to communicate his disapproval of the existence of the relationship is the depiction of that relationship and its dynamics. If the author disapproved of Arianne's actions and wanted to get that across, he'd paint this scene as somewhat more seedy, surely?

But this is not what the issue at hand is. Arrianne is shown using her sexuality to get ahead... with disastrous results. In her last chapter, the princess in the tower, she is portrayed as a moron who thinks she's smart. (Not unlike Cersei.) In some ways, Arianne's arc is Cersei's done in miniature-- female thinks she's smart, forms convoluted plans, and fails, epically.

Not a fair comparison. Arianne fails only because someone in her trusted group of allies betrays her... and it's at least interesting that there is no general agreement among readers as to who that was. It certainly wasn't obvious that one of them would betray her - she couldn't have predicted it. The author has her fail, yes - but he does not make that failure predictable and he does what he can to make her appear competent despite her failure. In no way does he show her as a 'moron' - if that was the intention, if she had genuinely acted moronically, her father would be much more scathing and wouldn't proceed to take her into his confidence.

Yes, Arianne does express remorse over Arys—which is supposed to indicate that she is not an "evil ambitious bitch," ala Cersei, but a confused, mislead girl whose foolish schemes (involving using her sexuality to bend a man to her will) blow up in her face horrendously.

This appears to me to be trying to have your cake and eat it. If a woman expresses no remorse, the author meant to make her out as an 'evil ambitious bitch'. But if she does express remorse, the author meant to make her out to be an idiot? Do I have that right?

Arianne is not portrayed "as a victimizer?" Not quite. Arianne's sexual manipulations are shown to directly result in her lover's murder. And the maiming of Myrcella.

If that's 'victimising', there are a lot of victimisers about. But, of course, it isn't.

Doran indicates that it was "children" who did not know any better who were responsible for this (except Darkstar, who is really dangerous.) Presumably, 23-year-old Arianne is one of these "children."

Which tells us that Doran views his daughter in a very paternalistic way, and that fits with much of the rest of how he behaves towards her. However, if the suggestion is that GRRM here intends to communicate that Arianne really should be seen as a 'child', that doesn't fit well with his portrayals of other women of the same age or younger (Asha, Dany, Brienne, Dacey Mormont, even our brief glimpse of Sarella). I don't think you can argue against the fact that they're generally shown as independent adults. So I think what we're being told her is something about Doran, not something about Arianne.

Um, are we reading the same books?

Yes. But we are not approaching them with similar biases: no two readers ever do. Yours do appear to be particularly strong, though, to the point where I honestly wonder if we can even have a sensible discussion.

Anyway, in Arianne's last POV chapter, The Princess in the Tower, Arianne is shown thinking well of her own intelligence and whiles, then proceeding to ineptly attempt to manipulate those around her to tell her what's going on/ aid in her escape, only to show her easily being foiled by the simplest people at every turn. It is highlighted that Arianne thinks of her wits as her weapons, however, her feeble attempts at cleverness and failed operations prove her to be silly. (Honestly, Arianne's POV chapter struck me a lot like Cersei's POV chapters in miniature. In both, a silly woman with an unjustifiably high opinion of her intelligence forms convoluted, ridiculous schemes that she thinks will save her. Yet the readers can see only too clearly that said schemes are idiotic, and will inevitably fail. It is left for readers to wait for the woman's downfall-- it's not a question of if, but when.) Honestly, at best Arianne is portrayed as a ridiculously naive girl who needs to be put in her place, form a lesser opinion of herself, and listen to her daddy.

No, at best she is portrayed as being naive and impatient, but that's ameliorated by having been kept out of the loop by her overprotective and paranoid father for years. We're also left in no doubt that Doran intends to treat Arianne as a full conspirator from now on - something she shares with a very small handful of others. A strange way to try to show that she 'needs to be put in her place' or that she has an 'unjustifiably high opinion of her own intelligence'.

[Nukelavee]

Swan - I don't think we can draw a direct link between Arriane putting out, and the disaster that occurs to her plans.

Things went wrong because she was betrayed, Arys died for pride, Darkstar...is a dork. heh.

Personally, although I'm pretty neutral to Arriane, I felt something close to contempt for Arys, and maybe a bit of pity. He's an adult, he made his choice, and then he let himself get consumed by guilt. And then he committed suicide out of shame.

He's a stereotype of men who die for a shallow sense of honour.

Arriane simply got outplayed by her father.

Petyr and Lyssa? I felt bad for Lyssa at times...she was so obviously used by him. I'll admit, i was like "serves you right, bitch!" when she went out the Moondoor...but I was also overwhelmed by the depths of her betrayal of her husband and sister, and the final costs of her jealousy. Next time I read it... I was kinda struck by the sheer power of "she didn't make a sound as she fell". To me, I read that as she didn't care about teh rocks below...the magnitude of Petyr's betrayals was overwhelming.

[Alexia]

Honestly, I don't see what the "hotness" of the sex has to do with anything. The issue is whether Arianne using her sexuality to get ahead is portrayed as something negative, not whether her and Arys had a good time in the sack together.

I dunno, I think if it was being portrayed negatively per se we would have gotten something like the Jaime/Cersei sex-in-a-church-next-to-their-son's-corpse-while-Cersei-on-period scene. Or the Cersei/Kettleblack scene, "I like you better with the crown."

My point was that GRRM portrayed Arianne using her sexuality to get ahead as something that is wrong, destructive, and stupid in a way that he does not with LF.)

I think that LF is portrayed very badly in comparison with Arianne and I think it was her plan that was portrayed as unwise, not her use of sexuality. LF has kidnapped a young girl and is forcing her to kiss him because she looks like her mother who rejected him years ago and kills his wife when she objects. Arys feels guilty for breaking a vow. I know which character's sexuality I think looks creepier, more wrong, and more destructive. *shrugs*

Doran indicates that it was "children" who did not know any better who were responsible for this (except Darkstar, who is really dangerous.) Presumably, 23-year-old Arianne is one of these "children."

This is really reaching. I'm 27 years old, married, with kids, and my dad still calls me his little girl. Hell, my grandfather called my mother on her 40th birthday and left a message on her phone wishing her a happy birthday - and said that she was finally a grownup.

Honestly, at best Arianne is portrayed as a ridiculously naive girl who needs to be put in her place, form a lesser opinion of herself, and listen to her daddy.

and by showing the superior wisdom of the male Doran, who is 10 times wiser than his daughter, and had a plan all along.

I disagree with the conclusions you've drawn from the text. Doran is certainly not portrayed as having superior wisdom. 1) He let them take Myrcella from the palace before acting, which directly resulted in the girl's disfigurement. 2) He planned to marry Arianne to Viserys, but didn't bother to share this information to Viserys or Arianne. 3) He planned to support Viserys for the throne, but let him wander penniless and gain the moniker "The Beggar King". 4) He didn't bother to train his heir, on the grounds that she would be married off. He neglected to share this with her. 5) He planned to marry her to a king and gave her no training in governance or her future role in life. 6) He thought she was a gossip as a teen and neglected to put a stop to it. 7) Those utterly ridiculous marriage proposals - if my dad suggested Walder Frey for a husband, I'd be planning to banish him to the Water Gardens too! 8) Need I continue?

LF is a creepy, treacherous, self-serving, insecure and somewhat pathetic man, and he is all of those things because the author wrote him that way on purpose.

:agree: *shudders*

In general, I agree with most of your comments about Arianne, Mormont. Full disclosure: I like that character a lot. She made mistakes but who doesn't? Tyrion lands on death row because of his mistakes, Sansa from one captor to another, Robb loses his head, and so on and so forth. OTOH, I don't like Doran anywhere near so much. He seems competent enough at general administration but he's not a great father and he's done a terribly job of training his heir - to the point where she's turning against him. FFS, he left her in charge of parties and Oberyn in charge of rule - and that said a lot, and not about Arianne. I honestly find Doran's claims of wanting "Fire and Blood" to be pretty danged laughable given what he's done to accomplish such thus far (absolutely nothing!).

But Arianne's sexuality wasn't portrayed negatively, nor did it have anything to do with the failure of her plan. Her plan failed because she was betrayed. Her major mistake in the plan was bringing in Darkstar and she did have some reasons for doing it. It wasn't her fault Arys died either, that was entirely his choice - and he chose to commit suicide.

[Myrish swan]

In general, I agree with most of your comments about Arianne, Mormont. Full disclosure: I like that character a lot.

You may well relate with Arainne, but that has nothing to do with my point. I never denied that Arianne was supposed to be an attractive, fundamentally decent character. I've heard others claim to like her.

But that does not change the fact that her using her sexuality to get ahead was portrayed as something negative and destructive. The same is not done for Littlefinger, who merely kills a much hated character, while spouting out a funny line, in a moment that I've read in countless threads led many readers to cheer.

The creepiness with Sansa is very real, however, it does not disprove the fact that LF's use of sex to get ahead is not portrayed as evil, destructive, or degrading (to him) as it is with Arianne and Cersei. Cersei and Arianne's sexual mechanations are both shown to have victims-- Myrcella and Arys, for Arianne; Lancel, Kettleblack, and Jaime (who, it is implied, Cersei led down a path of evil that he would otherwise never had trod with her wicked sexual manipulations) with Cersei. In fact, LF's sexual manipulations may well have been totally victimless, if Lysa would not have evilly attempted to murder her own niece. Thus, contrary to mormonts claims, LF does not kill Lysa so he can perv on Sansa some more. He does so to protect Sansa from an unhinged, dangerous woman. (Which, in the end, allows him to perv on Sansa some more. However, this was clearly not LF's motive for murdering Lysa.)

The issues with LF's "victim" is that a. said victim is drawn as wildly unsympathetic and grotesque from the beginning. (And though she does have her sympathizers-- I myself am one of them-- such people are very much in the minority. The vast majority of readers find Lysa pathetic, cruel, crazy, and physically revolting. Furthermore, such sympathizers seem to be, more often than not, female, and sympathizing with Lysa because of her specifically female problems (the miscarriages, the forced abortions) rather than any pathos from the text itself.) That b. said victim is murdered in a "poetic justice" way (being pushed through the moondoor with which she had so unjustly threatened the authors avatar, Tyrion), and in a way that led numerous readers to cheer. And c. said victim is killed not because LF had sex with her to attain his ends, but because she stupidly, cruelly, and crazily threatened to murder her own 13 year old niece by pushing her out the moon door. (The same door that -- yet more poetic justice-- she eventually went flyin out herself!)