So was Lyanna stupid or something?

[Alia of the knife]

FWIW, I don't think my scenario necessarily implies that Lyanna (or Elia for that matter) was gullible. And I'd imagine that Rhaegar was quite sincere in his belief. A really good charismatic leader can attract some kick-ass supporters.

I'm also not sure how much trouble you'd get into if your belief in prophecy became public knowledge. The role of prophecy in Westeros is contested but... I recall a scene in AFfC where Cersei asks Grand Maester Pycelle if it's possible to predict the future. He says (I'm paraphrasing), that by using certain techniques that aren't well-known to the maesters maybe you could, but you should not -- some doors are best left closed. I read most maesters as real sceptics about magic and prophecy, I think it's telling that even Pycelle's saying it's possible.

So the difficult question isn't the general "can prophecy work?". I think it's more a question that people have to ask of any particular prophecy: "Is this for real? Or is it B.S.? Or has it been misinterpreted?"

But on this topic we're all speculating based on tiny textual clues, so your scenario's as good as mine. :)

I wasn't necessarily directing this at you. I was just stating my own train of thought.:)

I think you make valid points.

Where I differ is Lyanna.

People seem to fixate on this idea of willfulness, but not on her sense of honor.

If she is the KoTLT, that act might have been willful, and even impusive- but it was also about justice for a boy she didn't even know.

While Rhaegar had his Court faction, and his wife who is a Martel, as well as the rest of the South who were somewhat accustomed to Targaryen eccentricities and hanging on to every Targaryen word, Lyanna comes from a very different, and harsh culture where truth is the taskmaster, so I simply think she would have taken one look at him, heard his ramblings and have been more apt to actually laugh at him, not falling all over him as everyone else does, giving him his first real taste of reality.

"Winter is Coming," is not their saying for nothing.

And again, she saw pretty quickly through Roberts nature, and he was just as sincere in what he believed was his love for her.

Also, Lyanna follows a totally different belief system.

Remember Caitlyn, (an outsider), never cared for Neds gods, and their potential cruelty

And as for the prophesy, again, I think it became important and Rhaegar obcessed on it when it came to incorporating Lyanna into those prophesies, and thus, his life, justifying taking her from his cousin.

The Targaryens were most always getting their prophesies wrong, especially when their personal fears, or desires came into it.

I have always maintained that her not wanting to run off with him doesn't have to mean she didn't love him, but that perhaps she was the most realistic about the outcome, and if the promise she got from Ned was to keep Jons idenity a secret, then she understood the political implications and dangers.

Rhaegar falling in love and wanting Lyanna doesn't make him bad either- only tragic and desperately selfish as only love can make a person.

[Solaris]

Nevermind, I think I just answered my own question :D

I know it's off topic but I just got to wondering if it's possible that LF somehow had a hand in Brandon & Rickon Starks deaths? I note that Lysa is already married to Jon Arryn when the war breaks out and given LF's skills I wonder if he took advantage of Aerys' madness? Where did he actually go once he recovered? We know that Lysa convinced Arryn to give him the control of customs at Gulltown so I assume he was in the Vale before everything hit the fan at KL.

I would like to know what was in that letter that LF sent to Cat after Brandons death.

[Ygrain]

Nevermind, I think I just answered my own question :D

I know it's off topic but I just got to wondering if it's possible that LF somehow had a hand in Brandon & Rickon Starks deaths? I note that Lysa is already married to Jon Arryn when the war breaks out and given LF's skills I wonder if he took advantage of Aerys' madness? Where did he actually go once he recovered? We know that Lysa convinced Arryn to give him the control of customs at Gulltown so I assume he was in the Vale before everything hit the fan at KL.

I would like to know what was in that letter that LF sent to Cat after Brandons death.

I believe Petyr sent the letter after his duel with Brandon, not after Brandon's death?

Anyway, Lysa married Jon Arryn at the same time when Catelyn married Ned, which is after the war started and Jon Arryn came out victorious from the war in the Vale. She only persuaded Jon to give Petyr the office after he became Robert's Hand, so LF never really got close to Aerys.

[Solaris]

I believe Petyr sent the letter after his duel with Brandon, not after Brandon's death?

Anyway, Lysa married Jon Arryn at the same time when Catelyn married Ned, which is after the war started and Jon Arryn came out victorious from the war in the Vale. She only persuaded Jon to give Petyr the office after he became Robert's Hand, so LF never really got close to Aerys.

Catelyn did not speak to him afterwards and burned the single letter Petyr sent after Brandon's death.^[1]

Really, wiki needs to be fixed then :(

I didn't know they married at the same time then. Q answered ty

[Ygrain]

Really, wiki needs to be fixed then :(

I'm not sure of this myself - I don't have my AGOT to check but I was under the impression that she burnt the letter because she was still Brandon's fiancee at that time and didn't want to read a potential love letter from his rival.

[Dragonfish]

Where I differ is Lyanna.

People seem to fixate on this idea of willfulness, but not on her sense of honor.

It's not just her willfulness that we fixate on, it's the fact that Ned cites her willfulness as the reason for her death. It is very difficult to reconcile this with the idea that she was kidnapped, IMO.

[Dark Rider]

Lyanna was 16 when she died, which I recognize is considered an adult in this world. However, sixteen is still an immature age and she was very inexperienced. We see that the Starks attitude in raising girls is a very classical one with traditional gender stereotypes and reinforcements. I believe that Lyanna simply didn't appreciate the consequences of her initial affair with Prince Rhaegar. I think Lyanna found herself caught up in something that grew quickly beyond her control.

Once the boys got involved she just became a pawn and bystander. It became a pissing contest between Brandon and Rhaeger that ended up costing a lot of men their lives. Who knows what promises and assurances that Rhaegar may have given Lyanna? "Oh, I shall depose my Mad Father and as King I will have the High Septon annul your betrothal and my marriage and we'll live happily ever after as soon as we get done having sex at my little get-a-way." Then of course Brandon ends up dead and it's now a pissing contest between Robert and Rhaegar.

[Alia of the knife]

It's not just her willfulness that we fixate on, it's the fact that Ned cites her willfulness as the reason for her death. It is very difficult to reconcile this with the idea that she was kidnapped, IMO.

But, what was the nature of that willfulness?

Again, everyone assumes that she ran off willingly with Rhaegar, because if she was the KoTLT, then she was too tough to be taken.

However, it's one thing to fight off some squires, and even in a Tourney where it's a contest of perhaps skill, but if she's going up against a Knight of Rhaegars ability determined on taking her, I think the realistic limitations of her gender do not equip her to win that contest.

And, just because Rhaegar didn't like fighting doesn't mean he wasn't capable.

In doing a re-read on Ned, (and this is just my feeling), I've come to think of Ned as more of an enigma, and just because he doesn't out and out say anything negative about Rhaegar doesn't necessarily mean he liked him.

He does still love Robert- even knowing his nature and he does state that plainly.

He does says Rhaegar would have made a better King, but again, that is not necessarily an endorsement.

But, on Lyannas nature, when he makes those references, he could have also been thinking that if she had just "stayed put," and let them deal with the issues of Reeds dishonor as they seemed fully willing to do, and just watched from the Stands like every other girl, she would have just remained another pretty face in the crowd, but because she took it upon herself to act for Reed, she came to Rhaegars attention.

Same with Arya, if perhaps she'd placated Joffrey, talked him off the ledge instead of fighting him, she could have avoided a lot of trouble, and have better protected the Butchers boy.

At the same time that we admire her willingness to stand up to Joffrey, the reality of the day says most people would have to swallow their pride and put up with him until the danger passed, (I always tend to think of Caligula and Claudius and the way it was said Claudius handled Caligulas madness when thinking of how Sansa handles Joffrey).

That said, Arya is still a child, even by the standards of the day, and had not yet learned those lessons.

What Lyanna did was impulsive and willful, but also admirable, however, it also put her on a path she may not otherwise have been on if she'd just sat in the Stands.

Again, almost every POV acknowledges Rhaegars feelings for Lyanna, but almost no one mentions her love for him-not even Ned really.

My own personal feeling is that they did love one another, but given what we know of the Starks, their sense of honor, as well as her savvy recognition of Roberts nature, I simply think the evidence points to Lyanna being the pragmatic one as opposed to the emo. Rhaegar.

As I've observed before, many go out of their way to defend Rhaegars honor, (without any real evidence that he's ever done anything honorable, or admirable other than to be the young rock star over Aerys), but no one considers that honor was a factor for Lyanna.

The other alternative view.

As the poster above noted, she may have succumbed to an affair with him, but then it got beyond her.

Rhaegar himself is no young boy by the standards of the day, (he was almost eight years older than her at twenty-three), so he is a man close to his peak, so it's not a game.

If she tried to pull back once the enormity of reality hit her and the futility of any future for them, and Rhaegar was not going to let her go, then yes, she allowed herself to get caught up in something that got her killed.

Again, these are just my opinions, and some of the nuances I've gleaned from my readings, and am by no means saying that mine are the correct ones.

[Dragonfish]

He does says Rhaegar would have made a better King, but again, that is not necessarily an endorsement.

Wait, where does Ned say this? I'm honestly drawing a blank on this one.

But, on Lyannas nature, when he makes those references, he could have also been thinking that if she had just "stayed put," and let them deal with the issues of Reeds dishonor as they seemed fully willing to do, and just watched from the Stands like every other girl, she would have just remained another pretty face in the crowd, but because she took it upon herself to act for Reed, she came to Rhaegars attention.

I've heard this argument before (from you and from others) and it honestly bothers me, because it makes it so that Ned is essentially blaming Lyanna for being a victim. I honestly can't see Ned believing this. It'd be the Westerosi equivalent of saying rape victims are partially responsible for their rape because they were wearing revealing clothing.*

*I'd like to emphasize here that I don't think you or others believe this, I'm only saying that your argument requires Ned to believe in this sentiment, which honestly seems out of character to me.

As I've observed before, many go out of their way to defend Rhaegars honor, (without any real evidence that he's ever done anything honorable, or admirable other than to be the young rock star over Aerys), but no one considers that honor was a factor for Lyanna.

That's because no one has ever described her as being particularly honorable, at least not to the degree Ned is. What people have done is compare her to Arya and Brandon, both of whom are known for being willful and impulsive, but who are not particularly well known for being honorable.

As the poster above noted, she may have succumbed to an affair with him, but then it got beyond her.

Rhaegar himself is no young boy by the standards of the day, (he was almost eight years older than her at twenty-three), so he is a man close to his peak, so it's not a game.

If she tried to pull back once the enormity of reality hit her and the futility of any future for them, and Rhaegar was not going to let her go, then yes, she allowed herself to get caught up in something that got her killed.

This is possible, though the fact that she's still clutching Rhaegar's roses when she dies says to me that she was still attached to him.

[red fork]

[Crazy theory]Benjen probably felt guilty about the deaths of Rickard and Brandon, which is why he joined the Nights Watch.[/Crazy theory]

This I like!

I've always been curious as to why Benjen joined up. I know the Starks are friends to the Watch and regard it as an honourable calling, but before Robert's rebellion Benjen would have been a bit too young to join, I think... and after, with many fewer Starks in Winterfell it would have had to have been a fairly compelling motive for a senior male to leave his House to join the NW

Unless Benjen had fathered a bastard with someone really inappropriate... could Jon be Benjen's by a Targaryen girl?

[Anarchosaurus Rex]

Robert's Rebellion started when Aerys killed Rickard and Brandon Stark along with several important squires, and demanded the heads of Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon. The reason they were killed is because Brandon rode to King's Landing demanding to fight Rhaegar, because he believed Lyanna had been kidnapped by him. We know she was taken by Rhaegar, but due to speculation on this board regarding Rhaegar's personality and his relationship to Lyanna, especially as in regards to a possible child and the Herrenhall tourney (that almost everyone here seems to agree on), I think it likely that Lyanna did in fact come willingly, and was not opposed to a union with Rhaegar (despite the fact that she was betrothed to Robert Baratheon.) This obviously makes the Stark reaction unnecessary, as it seems unlikely that they would object to a marriage to the crown prince of the realm, especially if Lyanna was behind it (even though this would cause a scandal due to her betrothal to Robert and the unusualness of polygamy in Westeros.)

.. So why, if Lyanna wasn't taken against her will, did she, or Rhaegar for that matter, give no word to Rickard Stark about it? Even a "Hi dad, I've run away with Rhaegar so we can fulfill a prophecy, I know that's bad but he's like the prince so whatever" would probably have ensured that he wouldn't have done something aggressive. Of course Aerys reaction to it, branding it treason, was also unwarranted, however I'm guessing Rhaegar either didn't tell him about it cause.. well he's mad, or that he was against Rhaegar's dream - point is that Rhaegar/Lyanna should have expected some reaction to what they did. So, can anyone find a logical reason why they didn't make sure nothing bad happened because of their actions, or should I consider this a minor plothole in Martin's writing?

Even though what Lyanna and Rhaegar did was irresponsible, there is nothing she could have done to have assuaged the situation. Assuming she was in a consensual relationship with Rhaegar, the Starks would still have demanded her return, Aerys would still have responded poorly (to say the least), and Ned and Robert would have raised the North, Vale, and Stormlands against the Iron Throne. Lyanna's consent does not change the fact that Rhaegar was committing adultery with her.

[Ser Lepus]

This I like! I've always been curious as to why Benjen joined up. I know the Starks are friends to the Watch and regard it as an honourable calling, but before Robert's rebellion Benjen would have been a bit too young to join, I think... and after, with many fewer Starks in Winterfell it would have had to have been a fairly compelling motive for a senior male to leave his House to join the NW Unless Benjen had fathered a bastard with someone really inappropriate... could Jon be Benjen's by a Targaryen girl?

It has been discussed a lot of times:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/47387-why-did-benjen-join-the-nights-watch/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/58379-do-we-find-out-why-benjen-stark-joined-the-night-watch/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/57147-why-did-benjen-stark-join-the-nights-watch/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/56755-important-or-not-why-did-benjen-stark-join-the-nights-watch/

I used to have that pet theory that Benjen was already a member of the Night Watch before Robert´s Rebellion, and he was the one who banged Ashara Dayne at Harrenhal (we know they allow him to visit his family now and then) and got her pregnant; Ned would have said that Jon was his own son because he is conservative and thought that breaking the Night Watch´s vows was a way worse stain to the Stark name than himself cheating on his wife during wartime.

Later somebody told me that Benjen didn´t join the Night Watch until after the war, which I find WEIRD, because of the same reasons you mention: He is a valuable spare heir, and a valuable bargaining chip as a groom for a noble lady, and shouldn´t be sent to the Wall.

[red fork]

It has been discussed a lot of times:

Thnx for the links good ser

[Alia of the knife]

Wait, where does Ned say this? I'm honestly drawing a blank on this one.

I've heard this argument before (from you and from others) and it honestly bothers me, because it makes it so that Ned is essentially blaming Lyanna for being a victim. I honestly can't see Ned believing this. It'd be the Westerosi equivalent of saying rape victims are partially responsible for their rape because they were wearing revealing clothing.*

*I'd like to emphasize here that I don't think you or others believe this, I'm only saying that your argument requires Ned to believe in this sentiment, which honestly seems out of character to me.

That's because no one has ever described her as being particularly honorable, at least not to the degree Ned is. What people have done is compare her to Arya and Brandon, both of whom are known for being willful and impulsive, but who are not particularly well known for being honorable.

This is possible, though the fact that she's still clutching Rhaegar's roses when she dies says to me that she was still attached to him.

Let me clarify what I mean by Lyanna coming to Rhaegars attention, because that most certainly is not what I mean.

As an admitted Lyanna fan, I do realize she's not perfect, but I am in no way blaming her for that situation.

On Brandon and Arya I think they do have a care for honor, especially as Arya even as a child relates to the small folk, and while Hoster Tully called Brandon a fool, he called him a gallant one.

In terms of Rhaegar and Lyanna, I think it was a matter of fate in their meeting.

I don't think her doing what she did was wrong as the KotLT, nor in any way immoral, though for those times, what she did was unconventional, and by the standards of Westeros, that unconentiality would put her up for social scrutiny.

Lyanna being outraged over injustice enough to fight for it, and Rhaegar falling in love with her because of it isn't wrong, and I think it says something about Rhaegar that he could see the beauty of her spirit and accept it, as well as her ways, as much as appreciating her physical beauty, which probably didn't hurt.

(That was Roberts problem- he saw only her beauty and not the iron beneath, and we can make yet another assumption that he would not have been happy about it).

Having Lyanna just run off with him makes her no different than any other mooning female in the book, and I have a feeling that is not Martins intent.

But, having her make a claim for honor, (something that was not attributed to women in that time), gives her a footing with males that does make her equal to them.

And I realize that many believe her making the decision to go with him, means she's making her own choices and is a sign of her independence, but in reality, it strips her of the ability to make good judgements and diminishes her as a person as well as any claim to, or for honor she may have had as the KotLT.

I also think it stretches it claim that because she is of an independent nature she would accept the irony of being the other woman in an adulterous relationship with Rhaegar because she loves him, yet be upset with Robert about infidelity when she doesn't love him?

It's been my experience you don't give a hoot about the activities of the person you don't love, but you sure do when it's the person you do love, and Rhaegar being married guarentees she'll not be the only one, whereas with Robert there is a breath of a chance she can "whip" him into shape, though she herself is rather cynical about it.

But, even Ned says it doesn't matter what Robert did before her, so he seemed to have hopes Robert would change after their wedding.

Her fighting for Reed, (another twist since it's a woman fighting for a mans honor), and getting caught by Rhaegar is not her putting herself out there to be a "rape victim," but, her not taking the conventional place in society reserved for most women of that time, puts her in a fateful position with a man who is most apt to be intrigued by her.

And I think that is what Ned meant, and why he is trying so hard to re-route Arya.

But, in the end, Ned allows Arya to carry a sword where his Father did not for Lyanna, and even allows Arya to have proper lessons that will stand Arya in good stead, because she can fully protect herself whereas Lyanna could not.

(I do tend to believe there was some sort of skirmish when taking her, and she may have tried to escape. She may not have even known who was trying to take her if Rhaegar and his men were in disguise, which if they were smart, they would have hidden their colors and sigils).

Now that brings us to a some hard questions about Rhaegar.

And again, I am not anti-Rhaegar, or think he's a villain, but it would appear he made a choice between duty and his heart- his heart is what he chose and thousands died for it.

I also don't think he raped Lyanna even if she was unwilling to go with him, but how Martin fleshes that will be his challenge.

I simply think you can love someone you are not supposed to, and in the end one, or both choose to accept it, separate, and go on with life, and I'm thinking Rhaegar didn't accept it, while Lyanna in the end, did.

The Starks are from an environment that for their privledge, hard choices and preparing for the worst is what they did, whereas no matter how nice Rhaegar was, he lived in a bubble and was never really tested.

As one other Poster put it in another thread, what was right and what he wanted would have been at cross purposes for the first time in his life.

It would be interesting to see what Rhaegar would have done if he'd found Benjen as the KotTLT. I imagine he fully intended to turn over whomever he discovered, and again, not because it was necessarily wrong.

What may have inevitably hurt Rhaegar and House Targaryen is that he didn't turn Lyanna over to his Father- a harsh reality, because Aerys could have used her as an honored "guest" at court to break the Berantheon alliance, and keep Rickard in check if he was afraid of him.

On Ned stating that Rhaegar would have made a better King, I can't quote you page and paragraph, but I remember reading it, (unless I got it confused with someone elses blog- which is entirely possible after being on these pages so much). :P

[Dragonfish]

Her fighting for Reed, (another twist since it's a woman fighting for a mans honor), and getting caught by Rhaegar is not her putting herself out there to be a "rape victim," but, her not taking the conventional place in society reserved for most women of that time, puts her in a fateful position with a man who is most apt to be intrigued by her.

And I think that is what Ned meant, and why is trying so hard to re-route Arya.

And this is where I disagree. When Ned says that Lyanna's wolf blood led her to an early grave, he is stating that she is in some way complicit in her own downfall. I have a hard time imagining him saying this if her big sin was "getting noticed" by her kidnapper.

On Ned stating that Rhaegar would have made a better King, I can't quote you page and paragraph, but I remember reading it, (unless I got it confused with someone elses blog- which is entirely possible after being on these pages so much). :P

I'm pretty sure the only thing Ned says about Rhaegar is that he probably would not have visited brothels. If he had outright stated he would have been a better king, I think it would have been mentioned more often in the Rhaegar threads. Are you certain you're not thinking of Ser Barristan?

[LadyoftheNorth72]

The following is just my observations regarding my own experiences with teenage girls, having been one myself long ago, and having a teenage daughter.

Much has been made of Lyanna's willful and independent spirit (her 'wolf's blood') and her basic intelligence and pragmatism in seeing clearly who/what Robert truly was. I have seen this put forward as evidence that it is unlikely she would have gone off with Rhaegar willingly, or at minimum, that she could/should have been able to foresee the potential direness of the consequences if she did. It has also been argued that, being the strong minded and realistic northern girl she was, it would have been less likely for her to fall head over heels for Rhaegar and be willing to risk everything for him.

I would like to point out that, in my experience, the possibility/probability that Lyanna was that strong willed and forward thinking northern girl, does not at all cancel out the possibility or even likelihood that she would have found herself turning into a romantic, slightly obsessed, love-struck girl when it came to Rhaegar. When I was 14, I was a strong willed, well read, straight A teen, who had scoffed heartily at other girls' romantic foibles and thought what fools they were to risk defying parents and social scorn by falling for boys in a very public and seemingly foolish way.

That is, until I met my OWN star-crossed love. He was 17, very definitely from the wrong side of the tracks, a "bad boy" in every sense of the term, and as inappropriate a guy as I could have picked to fall for. My parents hated him on sight which, of course, only intensified my determination to prove that our love was the real deal. I even remember thinking what an amazing coincidence it was that we were the same ages as Romeo and Juliet (yes, I got THAT ridiculous over him) and I jistified a great deal of our drama-filled relationship by comforting myself with all the stories of lovers who had been unjustly separated by circumstance. Needless to say, the whole thing ended badly as a startling lesson that maybe there was a reason why bad boys were labeled that way, and that while opposites might attract, they are also known to repel.

My daughter (now 18) had a similar experience. At 15, despite being just as headstrong and pragmatic as she could be, she fell in "love" with a boy who was utterly unsuited to her in every way. At the time, she was also obsessed with the Twilight books, and soon had herself convinced of all the parallels between her own romance and Edward/Bella. Because I remembered how my parents' condemnation of my teenage love jad only made me more stubbornly determined to prove them wrong, I kept my mouth firmly shut about my daughter's boyfriend, trusting to her own basic good sense and intelligence to rescue her; which it thankfully did fairly quickly. But I had some sleepless nights praying that she would not decide she had to be like Bella in every way possible and inflict me with a grandchild named "Renesmee."

I could give other examples from my teenage friends and hers, but I think this makes the point and now I would like to tie it to the story at hand.

Regardless of how smart, levelheaded, or strong willed Lyanna may have been, she was still a teenage girl. I aubmit that she could easily have possessed all those traits and more, and still fallen hopelessly, ridiculously in love with Rhaegar. Here is a man who is the complete antithesis of everything she has ever known. While northern men are practical, Rhaegar is romantic. Northern men are obsessed with duty and honor, Rhaegar is a mysterious prince obsessed with a fairy-tale-ish prophecy that he feels he must fulfill to avert disastrous, mysterious consequences to the realm. He must have seemed like a fairy tale come to life to Lyanna. She is already unhappy about the sensible, practical marriage that has been arranged for her, with a man who seemed to her to lack everything that Rhaegar was, while Rhaegar was everything that Robert was not.

I do not doubt for a moment that Lyanna had grown up hearing the tale about the Rose of Winterfell and how she loved her unsuitable suitor so much, she was willing to live with him in the crypts below Winterfell just to be with him, defying all her family's wishes and utterly unconcerned about their silly panic over what had become of her (because look, they were all a-dither over nothing, Bael treated her with love and kindness and their love was so great she was even happy to bear his illegitimate child).. I am sure she preferred to overlook the ultimate tragic end of that tale, just as I ignored the fate of Romeo/Juliet and (I am assuming) my daughter preferred to ignore the whole becoming-a-vampire element to Bella/Edward. The important part was the love that defied all barriers and ignored all warnings and was worth giving up everything for. If there is anyone capable of KNOWING that True Love Conquers All, it is a teenage girl, no matter how smart or mature or headstrong or insightful she is.

This is just my own view, but I think Lyanna absolutely fell for Rhaegar and would happily have run off to join the Dothraki with him, if he had suggested it. It was a way out of the distasteful marriage she was otherwise stuck with, a way out from under the constraints of being a "lady" that obviously chafed her, and like most teenagers who fall in love, she probably felt like Rhaegar was the only person in the world who truly understood her - especially if she truly was the KotLT and he not only knew but admired her for it.

Now, this is not to say that at some point, Lyanna did not have something of a reality check. Perhaps she found she missed her family and home desperately. Maybe she found the Tower of Joy insanely boring and prison-like and far from the romantic adventures she had envisioned herself and Rhaegar enjoying. It might have sunk in on her that she was actually going to bear a bastard (assuming a form of marriage was never performed), and what that truly meant in terms of her future. Or maybe somewhere along the journey, Rhaegar got melancholy and broke out the harp once too often, and she suddenly decided he was an unbeloevable bore (since teens are known to snap out of love as fast and illogically as they fall in it). By then, however, it was far, far too late to just call the whole thing off.

I think it is possible that by the time she had been at the ToJ for a while, most of the shine had worn off her adventure and she was probably displaying signs of her discontent. The KG knights left to guard her may well have been left to guard her from leaving, as much as to protect her. Whatever the case, it is clear that she was all too aware of several realities by the time Ned reached her. She knew she was going to pay with her life for her choices (assuming I am right and she chose to go). She knew that the baby would be in mortal peril as Rhaegar's offspring (whether because she knew what befell the rest of his family, or because she feared Robert and/or his cronies' reaction to the child's existence, or just knew that the helpless infant son of a prince, legitimate or not, would be a political target). And her clutching of the blue roses, to me, symbolizes either that she still loved Rhaegar, or they were simply all she had left as a tangible reminder of all the dreams she'd had for herself and her life which would never be.

In any case, this is just my (extremely) long-winded way of saying that the view of Lyanna as a pragmatic, smart, strong willed young woman, and the view of her as a lovestruck young girl who was easily manipulated/convinced by her love to go along with a seemingly insane course of action, are not necessarily mutually exclusive. She could easily have been both, and neither makes her stupid. They make her the kind of complex, sometimes contradictory type of character that we are accustomed to getting from GRRM on his best days.

[red fork]

Is there anything that explains why Rhaegar didn't intercede when Aerys was toasting Rickard and choking Brandon? Was he not in KL at the time?

He was already pretty certain his dad was bye-bye, so why didn't he prevent these acts of madness that would tear the realm apart?

[red fork]

The following is just my observations regarding my own experiences with teenage girls, having been one myself long ago, and having a teenage daughter.

Just read this post that popped up before mine - wow! That's one of the most insightful and real things I've seen on here - bravo!

[Alia of the knife]

And this is where I disagree. When Ned says that Lyanna's wolf blood led her to an early grave, he is stating that she is in some way complicit in her own downfall. I have a hard time imagining him saying this if her big sin was "getting noticed" by her kidnapper.

I'm pretty sure the only thing Ned says about Rhaegar is that he probably would not have visited brothels. If he had outright stated he would have been a better king, I think it would have been mentioned more often in the Rhaegar threads. Are you certain you're not thinking of Ser Barristan?

And I think Ned uses this analogy to try and explain to Arya why being unconventional, in her case an unconventional female in a hostile world where there are rigid roles everyone is supposed to conform to, is likely dangerous.

[Dragonfish]

And I think Ned uses this analogy to try and explain to Arya why being unconventional, in her case an unconventional female in a hostile world where there are rigid roles everyone is supposed to conform to, is likely dangerous.

I don't think this interpretation really works, given that he uses both Brandon and Lyanna as examples of people whose wolf's blood led to their downfall. Was Brandon being an unconventional female too?

The lesson, as I see it, was not to be too rash and impulsive. Lyanna's stint as the KotLT might qualify as an example of this, but I don't think Ned would single this event out as the thing that led to her death simply because it got her noticed by Rhaegar. Ned's quote only makes sense to me if she was somehow a direct instigator of the events that led to her death.