The Unremembered

[Myshkin]

I hate it when authors/publishers pull this amazon shit. Knowing this now I probably wouldn't have picked the book up on sale like I did, although its not always the author, sometimes agents can go a little batshit.

Yeah, I was actually gunna buy the book, but the shit on Amazon (and even a post on the SFFWorld forums) turned me off of it.

[pat5150]

Finished this one today and I'm decidedly underwhelmed.

As I was about to start, Orullian told me this:

Be aware that I went ahead and decided not to be afraid of conventions, where I saw they served my story; but know that I sure as hell am evolving those beyond your assumptions, which is part of the point. Some of this happens in book one; a lot more happens after book one. There's a lot of invention, too, of course. But as I've become fond of saying: Trope-avoidance is the new trope. I'm not fond of books that try so hard to be different that they come off feeling labored. I've read more than my share of those lately.

So at first, even though it appeared to be a ripoff of Jordan's The Eye of the World, I tried to stay on my toes, prepared not to let my guard down when Orullian would try to screw me by playing with my own preconceptions. Trouble is, this never happened at any point in The Unremembered.

There is some cool stuff in the book, concepts and ideas that have great potential. Yet structurally, as others have pointed out, it is basically The Eye of the World with different characters. And as such, with no rewarding mindfuck at the end, everything felt a little flat, especially the characterization. . . :worried:

I had high hopes for this novel, so it can be nothing but a disappointment. . .

Patrick

[Grack21]

Haha I was just looking at the amazon page for this. Holy Shit. Someone is being naughty. My StanekAlert immediately went to level 3. It's weird cause in all the interviews he really doesn't seem like the type to pull something like this, which makes me wonder is someone at TOR isn't having a bad day. With some of the decisions TOR has been making....well it wouldn't be that shocking.

Edit: Ohh he worked for xbox live in marketing.....Stanek Alert At Full. All personal to battle-stations.

[red snow]

That quote from Pat isn't flattering. Sounds like he's trying almost as hard to do the same old stuff as tho ones he's decrying for trying not to. He could have saved himself a lot of effort by just being generic.

It's a shame though as I was just looking for this one as it sounded as though he was getting a lot of buzz. Think I'll stick with my advance copy of "Prince of thorns".

[Grack21]

Goodreads is splattered with false sounding 5 star reviews. I'm not sure if that's indicative of more...marketing...or if it's just goodreads.

[polishgenius]

Think I'll stick with my advance copy of "Prince of thorns".

I'm trying to think of an epic fantasy that's less like what I know of The Unremembered than Prince of Thorns.

Nope, I've got nothing.

[Mjolnir]

I haven't read the amazon reviews or anything so I should probably just defer to you all. But come on, please, let's not go all conspiracy theory. Tor is a major publisher with multiple books to publish every month and work to do; I have next to no idea how publishing works but I'm confident everyone who works there has better shit to do than feverishly type up faux amazon customer reviews, [like get me Ian Tregillis's The Coldest War, right now.] More to the point, they have a marketing department; certainly we've looked at them sideways several times in recent years based on what they've chosen to publish, and well we should have, but I'm sure they could come up with something better than amazon reviews if they really felt it necessary.

I agree some of their moves lately don't make an awful lot of sense to me, but it's sales I suppose. Dropping Abraham was dumb and an art crime, but if nobody buys The Long Price Quartet [and it seems not many did] what are they supposed to do? I dunno how much they marketed it and it seems the answer's not very much, so that's somewhat lame of them certainly, but they seem to have tried at least a little: There's an excerpt from An Autumn War in the back of Sanderson's Mistborn 2, along with a note from Sanderson urging and imploring his fans -- which even then were probably legion compared to Abraham's -- to try the series. Also, note what they do doesn't make sense *to me*. I'm not a publisher. It is a job. It takes experience to do a job, and there are always complications inherent in any job invisible to those outside it. Sure they've done some stuff that's pretty inscrutible to those of us looking in, but they really have been doing this for over thirty years; is there a point at which we have to just accept they know their shit? Maybe they need to pitch some things they think'll sell really well to the centre of the reading field in order to give them the financial cushion to keep publishing the odder, more niche-appeal stuff many of us feed on, who knows; there are complications we don't think of is what I'm saying.

Tor seems to have been having a lot of trouble in recent years getting new epic fantasy to stick: Charlton's very fun Spellwright seems to have done well, but outside of that... Ken Scholes' The Psalms of Isaak series has been well-received critically, but doesn't seem to have quite caught fire the way early publicitty indicates they were hoping it would. Brown's Servant of a Dark God has yet to even see a sequel and Bernobich's Passion Play -- which crosses epic fantasy with romance/erotica in a Kushiel-esque way -- seems to be heading down that dark road too. The Wanderer's Tale crashed and burned for reasons that seem to have been largely related to its genuine and profound shitness, but most of these others are meant to be one degree or another of fairly good. My acknowledgement that I can't know the mysterious ways in which they work aside in favour of a bit of rampant speculation, Tor does seem, from the outside, to have had some difficulty maintaining their pr enthusiasm for series and authors that aren't immediately successful as they were hoping in recent years -- Bernobich, Tregillis [though that situation was ... special.] On the other hand they have stuck with some authors through what seem to have been fairly thin times. And on the other other hand they've ditched some which, talent-wise, were eminently worth sticking with, [Abraham, most prominently.] So there really doesn't seem to be much predictability to it. Given all of this, and the fact The Unremembered doesn't seem to be exactly setting the world on fire, I'll be interested to see how they handle the series going forward. Hope it works out for Orullian.

The ones that are written by the author's overzealous friends aside, the amazon reviews may well just be from readers fond of fairly conventional fantasy and not over-concerned with prose. Such folk do exist; in fact they're numerous and seem to make up the majority of the genre's reading public. That's no great mystery.

As to the book itself, I admit I've definitely been put off somewhat by the reviews. I'm gonna try it from the library and see how it goes. Like others have said I'm very partial to a good traditional secondary world fantasy, but the key word is good. Based on the excerpts I've read thus far, particularly the prologue, I'm very apprehensive but I'll certainly still try it.

And -- setting aside for a moment my reflexive urge not to be unnecessarily cruel in order to come to Orullian's defense -- I haven't read Unremembered yet but ... it brings back memories of Bilsborough? Really? Really? Look deep into your heart. Ask yourself: have I forgotten the wrenching, writhing, soul-mangling horror that was every single aspect of The Wanderer's Tale? Let's not inflate The Unremembered's flaws.

[Grack21]

Well, the marketing reminded me of The Bilsborough Incident. I haven't actually read The Unremembered yet. Also, amazon already deleted a bunch of reviews, and they don;t do that unless they really know something shady is going on. That's why the reviews at amazon don't look fake anymore. But if you scroll around a bit in the comments you can see what was going on. I'm not saying we actually have a full on Stanek, I was being somewhat sarcastic and yes, I was in a shitty mood yesterday, but there was definitely something going on at amazon.

[Myshkin]

I haven't read the amazon reviews or anything so I should probably just defer to you all. But come on, please, let's not go all conspiracy theory. Tor is a major publisher with multiple books to publish every month and work to do; I have next to no idea how publishing works but I'm confident everyone who works there has better shit to do than feverishly type up faux amazon customer reviews, [like get me Ian Tregillis's The Coldest War, right now.] More to the point, they have a marketing department; certainly we've looked at them sideways several times in recent years based on what they've chosen to publish, and well we should have, but I'm sure they could come up with something better than amazon reviews if they really felt it necessary.

Go read the amazon reviews and comments, then see if you still think we're conspiracy theorists. There is absolutely no doubt that someone is trying to manipulate amazon reviews.

[Grack21]

Go read the amazon reviews and comments, then see if you still think we're conspiracy theorists. There is absolutely no doubt that someone is trying to manipulate amazon reviews.

I'm actually kind of half expecting them to start saying "This is almost as good as Stanek!".

[Sci-2]

I haven't read the amazon reviews or anything so I should probably just defer to you all...

Actually, you have a great point which I why I've been hedging against saying this is a definite skewing by the publisher. At the same time, yeah, something is going on whether it's friends of his or Tor employees.

I think you bring up good points about traditional fantasy. I love the stuff, and still look fondly at my D&D novel collection. That is why I wanted to like Unremembered as I was hoping after lots of Mieville and Bakker it would be a return to my roots...it just didn't work out that way, and I guess what feels off to me is that with an experienced editor and honest beta readers this could have been a good epic traditional fantasy.

I recall the gods meeting in the Forgotten Realms Avatar Trilogy...it was way more epic and godly than what felt like office clerks in the prologue of Unremembered. I'm also thinking Mieville's Weavers, Hal Duncan's unkin, Erikson's deities, Moorcock's Order/Chaos lords...there was something missing that seemed to peak at the edges of the prose.

[Tears of Lys]

This.

It upsets me that this book is getting almost universally bad reviews AND a large marketing push by Tor, yet Tor never gave Daniel Abraham's series even half the push this seems to be receiving.

Tor makes me very angry. You wouldn't like to see me angry. Me angry.

I LOVE Daniel Abraham. (Grrr....)

Look out, Tor! You're on my shit list.

[kuenjato]

Actually, you have a great point which I why I've been hedging against saying this is a definite skewing by the publisher. At the same time, yeah, something is going on whether it's friends of his or Tor employees.

I think you bring up good points about traditional fantasy. I love the stuff, and still look fondly at my D&D novel collection. That is why I wanted to like Unremembered as I was hoping after lots of Mieville and Bakker it would be a return to my roots...it just didn't work out that way, and I guess what feels off to me is that with an experienced editor and honest beta readers this could have been a good epic traditional fantasy.

I recall the gods meeting in the Forgotten Realms Avatar Trilogy...it was way more epic and godly than what felt like office clerks in the prologue of Unremembered. I'm also thinking Mieville's Weavers, Hal Duncan's unkin, Erikson's deities, Moorcock's Order/Chaos lords...there was something missing that seemed to peak at the edges of the prose.

This.

I too have a fondness for traditional fantasy -- heck, I just spent 10 months working on a quest-style novel myself -- and there definately is a place for it among the readership. But trying to pass off half-measures, particularly in this economic climate.... From what I read of it (not much, but enough), Unremembered felt like the fifth draft of a relatively inexperienced author with lots of vision (and modifiers to boot) but little in the way of editorial oversight. Parts of that prologue were frankly painful. And I don't get all this "let's give 'em a couple books to hone his style." FFS. After reading this board's own writing threads, you'd think a writer in this market would have his chops down and his book redlined to perfection before even beginning the agent grind. But again, it's often not how good your work is, but who you know or who you've managed to excite somewhere on the pyramid (shades of Newcomb, Hoffman, Bilsborough, etc.)

The author seems like a nice guy (as everyone says)... but if you've written a pale clone of RObert Jordan, you'll need to expect some criticism on the traditional outlets.

[pat5150]

Folks,

The Unremembered may be a disappointment, but it's nowhere near as bad as The Wanderer's Tale...

Patrick

[Grack21]

I recall the gods meeting in the Forgotten Realms Avatar Trilogy...it was way more epic and godly than what felt like office clerks in the prologue of Unremembered. I'm also thinking Mieville's Weavers, Hal Duncan's unkin, Erikson's deities, Moorcock's Order/Chaos lords...there was something missing that seemed to peak at the edges of the prose.

We're not supposed to like D&D novels. Apparently it makes the board look bad and it will drive people away forever.

And yeah I doubt it's as bad as The Wander's Tale. Heck I think I enjoy The Yeard more than that,

[Sci-2]

We're not supposed to like D&D novels. Apparently it makes the board look bad and it will drive people away forever.

And yeah I doubt it's as bad as The Wander's Tale. Heck I think I enjoy The Yeard more than that,

that's why i followed with a heavy nod to the greats. ;-)

though on a more serious note, i was actually trying to go for a range of god like beings in fantasy. not all of those aforementioned are immortal, and some seem to be bound to the worship of mortals and some even act like managerial staff.

i think the concept - these custodians of reality are in some sense scientist scholars, or perhaps archmagi who achieved world creating powers - is a good one. i just think there is some sense of wonder missing...

[MattL86]

I'm about a little over halfway through, and this book has been a gigantic dissapointment. When people say it's TEOTW they aren't kidding.

PLOT (Spoilers only if you haven't read TEOTW)

Tahn (Rand) lives in a peaceful backwoods area known as The Hollows (Two Rivers). Then one day Bar'dyn (Trollocs) and Velle (Fades) come and hunt him there. He and his joke cracking, adventure seeking friend Sutter (Mat) escape with two strangers who come to take them, Mira and Vendaj (Morraine and Lan). Along with them comes a third friend Braethen (I guess he's the Perrin), and Wendra (our Egwene). Shockingly there is no braid tugging second girl. Along the way they get separated into three groups and continue their journey through three storylines, just like tEoTW. Apparently Tahn (Rand) is important for some reason to stop Quietus (The Dark One) from escaping the Bourne (Shayol Ghul) where the Veil (Seal) is weakening.

I can't even begin to go into the minor similarities. There's a Bran al'Vere like innkeeper, Tahn's father seems to be more than just a simple farmer much like Tam in TEOTW, a scene where the foolhardy boys go running off to explore, a league of civility which is strangely like the Children of the Light, etc, etc. They even get divided by an evil mist, ala the Shadar Logoth scene. I could go on forever, and I'm only halfway through.

I feel like Tor is desparate for a WoT replacement in their lineup or something. They would have to be to publish this. What's worse, the prose is jarringly bad. Almost every page has at least one sentence that bothers me. Unless the second half of the book is insanely better, i think this is a series I'll not be continuing.

[gyrehead]

While I might agree that The unremembered is not as bad as The Wanderer's Tale; I'd also point out that turds come in various degrees. And this is a turd. A smelly blowfly-egg laden turd.

As or conspiracies and marketing highjinks? I might buy into it if I hadn't just recently been reminded of Brandon Sanderson's The Way of Kings review archive on Amazon. Granted I think Sanderson has written 1 3/4 of a good book (Elantris and Warbreaker as young adult fare make up the 3/4). I think his WoT stuff is bad. But The Way of Kings is really bad. Goodkind bad. Maybe even worse since it also packs in a whopping quantity of bad. The prose is simple (I thought that it was his pathetic attempts to emulate Jordan in use of description but in this he does it all on his own; tell instead of show, clothing descriptions that are not part of the pov but simple flat apropos of nothing "Her dress was yellow" type crap) to th epoint of idiocy. Even when employed for characters to go on ad nauseum to wage philosophical debates that don't actually have a point.

I get that Sanderson has fans. I get that it is subjective and the ranks of his idolators are just as rabid and adamant as his female counterpart, Stephanie Meyers (they even misuse vocabulary and debase characterization to flat general bland tropes much the same). But he has several hundred five star ratings for this book. Five star. By that standard, then even the horrifically bad ToM and the two churning messes that were the two latter Mistborn books complete with the most sad little ending ever, would rank as five star books for me.

I think the masses like stuff that does not challenge. They like stuff that is easy to read. And in this day and age, easy to read means kind of stupid and poorly written. the fact that many authors do write good solid written and accessible easy to read stuff isn't being ignored thank goodness. Rothfuss manages quality and accessibility.

Orullian's writing is flat out stupid and completely illogical at times. He can't keep a scene in perspective that works more often than not. His vocabulary is thesaurus abuse at best; mostly though a case of "that word doesn't quite mean what you think it does". But perhaps the new trend is stupid writing makes for good stupid reading? Maybe, when you draw a venn diagram of fantasy readers and say, people who think Palin is qualified to be President, or Donald Trump and people who think Kim Kardashian is actually worth her 60 some million raked in last year, Peter Orullian is the shared area.

[Grack21]

Now, don't hold back, tell us how you REALLY feel about Sanderson.

Also, his counterpart Stephanie Meyers? No. A world of no. I know people(obviously) don;t like him, but that's really stretching it.

[kuenjato]

While I might agree that The unremembered is not as bad as The Wanderer's Tale; I'd also point out that turds come in various degrees. And this is a turd. A smelly blowfly-egg laden turd.

Orullian's writing is flat out stupid and completely illogical at times. He can't keep a scene in perspective that works more often than not. His vocabulary is thesaurus abuse at best; mostly though a case of "that word doesn't quite mean what you think it does". But perhaps the new trend is stupid writing makes for good stupid reading? Maybe, when you draw a venn diagram of fantasy readers and say, people who think Palin is qualified to be President, or Donald Trump and people who think Kim Kardashian is actually worth her 60 some million raked in last year, Peter Orullian is the shared area.

lol, this page is generating some great rants. we should have a 'no holds barred' thread specifically for raging against the speculative genre machine.

As for Sanderson... I wasn't able to get past Way of Kings multi-prologues due to the stilted prose, info dumping and contractions galore, and my attempt at WoT 12 came to a screeching halt at a horrible logistical mistake on the third page. But the actual content itself, from what I've read on message boards and the like, doesn't come across as twisted and retro as Twilight.

As I'm overseas, I can't browse 'the next big thing' in the local bookstore, so does anyone wish to post some of the clunkier examples of prose and concepts? What are the sporadic 'differences' from the Shannara/WoT template?