[Book Spoilers] EP107 Discussion

[julandro]

I think this is problematic in many respects, none more so than it makes Cersei appear to be wholly faithful to Jaime when that isn't even the case back in AGoT. It's clear very early on that she is willing to use her body for advancement even then. It makes me worry about her character going forward as well. I'm starting to question whether she will sleep with Lancel in the show and so forth

I'm glad you're interested in that topic. as I said before, some people have told me that Cersei and Lancel if you have a shared scene.

[Regina]

Pros

-Dany/Dothraki scenes

-scenes at the wall (YAY GHOST! :thumbsup: )

-Seeing the long shot of all the Lannister tents. This gave a nice sense of a large number of people having been gathered, which we could have used more in some earlier episodes (Dany's wedding, Hand's tourney).

-Seeing Tywin, although I was taken out of the scene while trying to decide if he'd butcher his own kill or not. I still haven't decided about that, lol.

-Luwin pawning Theon. I was initially against having yet another Winterfell scene focus so much on Theon, but Luwin's crushing one-liner more than made up for it.

Cons

-I felt like Robert's last scene went by too quickly, and that we didn't see enough of the bond between Robert and Ned. It would have been nice to keep the part where Ned reassures his dying friend that at least he did better than Aerys.

-I get what they were trying to do with Littlefinger and Roz's scene, but it was not one of the better sex-position scenes, imo. I don't feel like we learned new information, so the time spent felt wasted. And I think it was Kal that pointed out that showing more of Littlefinger's motives next week, AFTER he betrays Ned, would be better.

[Chirios]

Are you gonna say something clever? Go on, say something clever.

^Favourite quote from the episode.

[Jaxom 1974]

Sigh. You guys are a bunch of wet blankets.

I thoroughly enjoyed the Tywin-Jaime scene.

For the record, Mya: I loved that scene. My only small concern was the location, as it seems to have been in Tywin's tent. And to a lesser extent the timing. Preparing for a war...amazing how quickly Tywin had his forces marshalled, I'm re-reading the book and it feels different on the show...almmost as if he was riding to King's Landing before Tyrion was taken...preparing for war and taking the time to personally skin a deer seems slightly odd...

That being said, the scene radiated Tywin's strength.

Couple people have pointed out how bad Renly's casting is and how changed he is from the books. I agree 100% with this.

I think I've found Renly to be my biggest cating/character developing issue. He has none of the self confidence of the novels and the added scene of him and Loras just took away even more of the characters ambiguity and potential...

[Trinket]

I must say, the mileage we're getting out of non-standard scenes has been tremendous thus far. They've expanded the vision of the books in elegant and surprising ways much of the time.

But as far as I'm concerned, Aidan Gillen can go hang. I didn't think I'd be ready to dislike any of the actors this early on, and he started out initially promising. But his interpretation of Littlefinger--and I'm not even talking about the writing, just the delivery--has fallen so very flat. This episode in particular sealed it for me.

First world problems, I guess :)

I kind of wish a little bit more of Littlefinger's sarcastic humor would show through in the tv show. I'm re-reading the first book and Littlefinger is dropping these great lines everywhere. He isn't quite as entertaining in the tv show as in the books, although I don't have anything against Gillen.

The sex scene was a bit unfortunate, like several others I would have preferred his betrayal to come as a bit more of a surprise, but ah well..

[MountainThatRides]

All in all, it was a good episode. Not the best of the season, but certainly not the worst; it maintains the quality level of the last few episodes, all of which have exceeded my expectations.

The Littlefinger/Roz scene was whatever. I haven't warmed up to her, and Littlefinger is not dear enough to my heart to redeem such a pointless scene. Tyrion, on the other hand, I can handle -- even when he's having an orgy on Jaime's dime, as in the strange brothel scene we saw in the first episode.

I thought Robert's last few scenes were well-done. It might not have been adapted exactly as I'd imagined, but it was powerful nonetheless. Mark Addy did a wonderful job in that role, and while he might have beat us over the head with the "former college football player" cliche, I think it worked. As a previous poster said, the bit about him being better than Aerys would have been nice, but so far there has been no mention of Aerys Targaryen in anything but the poorest light. This is good framing because right now, the Mad King is considered a villain absolutely, and I don't think any of the non-reader audience would conceive of comparing the two rulers at this point. As the series progresses into the War of the Five Kings, when the common folk start reminiscing about how much better things are under Targaryen rule, Aerys will be put into perspective. The fact that he wasn't always crazy, and in fact was at one point a competent and well-liked monarch, will add another delicious layer to all of the scandal preceding Robert's rebellion.

Ned's little gamble for power came across just the way it should have -- too little, too late. The betrayal of Littlefinger came as no surprise to us, of course, but I wonder how many viewers saw this coming. It made me feel the way I did when I was reading A Game of Thrones for the first time. Joffrey was perfectly petulant, though the Hound looked kind of stupid when he pulled his sword out. Reminded me of a villain from Power Rangers or something. Still waiting and hoping for the Hound to become the Hound.

No Tyrion this episode, which was a bummer, but he'll show up soon enough. I really hope they show how he wins the mountain clans to his side. I can't imagine why they wouldn't.

Tywin satisfied me. He wasn't completely bald, which I always thought was a very interesting part of his character -- how he doesn't believe in half-measures. Also, butchering his own stag was kind of silly. The book Tywin would have never done such a thing, but this Tywin seems to be a slightly different character. He's still an antagonist, power-player, strategist, kingmaker and a man who's respected and feared, but he smacks of Randyll Tarly. I enjoyed his and Jaime's scene, though.

So, in short: Renly was better in this episode, Littlefinger was worse (his forceful delivery of his lines leaves none of the wry, smirking cunning of the book Littlefinger intact). Jason Momoa as Khal Drogo was impressive, at least visually and emotionally. The Dothraki language sounds kind of silly -- it's like Klingon; they didn't bother with the more in-depth structure of linguistics, but seemingly wrote out the lines in English and then translated them word-for-word, so everything (syntax wise) comes in the same order. That's a bit of a stretch, considering how languages evolve. The Wall scenes were alright, saved largely by the actor who plays Samwise Samwell, despite his admission of wanting to be a fat Harry Potter. Mormont's speech was strong, the Oath was good and Ghost came back, looking very impressive. The Cersei/Ned Godswood scene fell kind of flat for me. Where's the seductress? So far she's just a jaded strategist, without all the devious charm.

[KarentheUnicorn]

I just don't quite get Littlefinger telling his business to his hired help. And not even his hired help, the whores he's telling really just showed up at his place for a job. We saw MissRedHeadWhore on the road she she's only just gotten there lately.

If it was one of his whores he's had around for years I might say maybe he'd hint at or give his history...but this new girl shows up looking for a job and he's going to tell her

he's got a revengo-metor going on a northern lord(s), and his past history with them and even some of his innter motivations.

Does that even really make sense? He's dealing in secrets and spies and I'd think he'd keep hints of his real motives close to the vest, not just tell random whore #1 and #2 who are looking for a job this histories about himself and even get close if not outright telling his plans/motives.

My complaint really has nothing to do with the girl on girl action, it's more that I find it hard to believe LF would just randomly tell this unknown chicks his business.

[Knight Of The North]

I think Littlefinger is being played by Aiden Gillian, and portrayed through the writing, as abit more of a sleazy politician, perhaps in the vein of Lord Mandelson rather than Lord Baelish.

For reference, here's a picture I think perfectly illustrates the book Petyr Baelish: He's handsome, to a degree, he's charming, he's abit sleazy, and he never, ever, ever plays to lose. The TV Baelish seems to be abit more wormy, more obviously cowardly, less like a prancing master of the Courtly Game, and more a backroom bureaucrat fixing things behind the scenes; ala, Varys.

[Ellroy]

Good episode, I liked it a lot: it's one of the best in the series so far.

I loved the scene with Jaime and Tywin. And I disliked the LF's brothel scene.

But my biggest regret is the "you win or you die" scene. With the TV Cersei, a charachter that misses most of the viciousness and the evilness of her book counterpart, the scene lost a lot of its dramatic impact. Mind, it's still good, but I hoped for something better.

[VikingLegion]

Apparently we came away from the books with drastically different ideas of Tywin's character.

Strange isn't it? I had no problem seeing him "get his hands dirty". To me, he reads as a man's man who will push to excel in all things - not some paper-pushing beaurocratic puppetmaster who refuses to engage in the action. If anything, I see him as quite the opposite - a man who believes that nobody could possibly ever do the job as well as himself, so he will take matters into his own hands when that is appropriate. Of course when large scale betrayals and other ugly business is involved, he'll utilize a lesser mind to make sure all the heat falls on his scapegoats.

In our world, I envision Tywin as a high-powered CEO who kicks ass in the board room for most of the day. But in his off time he's got black belts in multiple martial arts styles, can kick the crap out of men half his age, and still have enough energy to go home and do his own oil change on his self-restored vintage car out in the garage - because he knows some pimply faced kid at the local Jiffy Lube won't do as good a job as he will. He's the millionaire that still brings a bag lunch to work everyday, because it's the practical thing to do.

Maybe I'm way off, but that's just the Tywin I envisioned, and why the stag scene resonated perfectly for me. Good convo though, it's interesting to me to see how a character can be interpreted so differently. I guess none of us will be more "right" than the others.

[Tywin's bastard]

My bad, in my original post I said he seemed aged "about 5 years" and everyone ran with it, so I did too. I'm just judging by facial hair LOL, and Robb seems older than 16-17 in the show as well. Ned Stark seems to have been aged at least 10 years (supposedly 34-ish in the book). I don't think the aging is across-the-board 2-3 years. Dany seems to have been aged more than 2-3 years as well. I don't think the show can be held to the same hardcore chronology that the books can. Jon Snow, to me, looks older than 16-17 in the show. I believe the actor who plays him is mid-20s, so whatever age they say Jon Snow is in the series, he looks like a full-grown man, so should not be acting like a child in my eyes at least, which is probably why his whininess seems so inappropriate to me. In that case, it's a casting error, but since I like the dude playing him (and he's easy on the eyes LOL) I'll let it slide :)

Yes, Kit Harrington was 23 when the show was shot. A big part of the actors on the show are older than their characters, and it goes for all the children. Speaking of children I was mainly referring to the Stark children when I said they are aged up 2-3 years. Dany is aged up 4 years if I recall correctly and you are right in that the people in Ned's generation are aged up about 10 years. As for the chronology I actually did put it in the show's own chronology as 17 years is what the show says, while it's shorter in the books. The remark about Jon probably being born after the war was a side thing, which is why I put it in parenthesis.

As for Jon being how he is, I think it works fine as he's had a chip on his shoulder from being treated unfairly and has never had any chance to step out of that shadow until he joins the Watch because Cat would never be fine with him getting a decent position at Winterfell. I think that works just as well in his late teens as people have held grudges on life for far longer than that.

[Tywin's bastard]

Tywin satisfied me. He wasn't completely bald, which I always thought was a very interesting part of his character -- how he doesn't believe in half-measures. Also, butchering his own stag was kind of silly. The book Tywin would have never done such a thing, but this Tywin seems to be a slightly different character. He's still an antagonist, power-player, strategist, kingmaker and a man who's respected and feared, but he smacks of Randyll Tarly. I enjoyed his and Jaime's scene, though.

This isn't directed towards you but a general point on Tywin skinning the stag. Nobles hunt for sport, not for food, and dressing your kill is part of the hunting game. I can definitely see the highborn doing that to their own kills as part of the whole manliness ritual hunting represents for them. Tywin could very well be one that hunts for the ritualistic sport of it, rather than just to kill something (like Robert). As you say, Tywin doesn't believe in half-measures, which tells us he wouldn't skip part of the whole hunting experience when he decided to hunt.

As for getting his hands dirty, that's more likely figuratively speaking than literary because you don't get to be as fit as Tywin seems to be at his age if you aren't a person that takes part in a good deal of physical activities.

So to go and say that the book Tywin would have never done such a thing is pretty much committing the fallacy of putting forth opinion as fact.

[Steel_Wind]

They basically did away with Cersei offering herself to Ned.

I think this is problematic in many respects,

They made that choice when they aged up Cersei as she is portrayed in the books and decided that they would not cast a bombshell in the role. Book Cersei was a breathtaking babe of a woman that all men lusted after. TV Cersei is attractive woman to be sure, but she is no bombshell.

When they decided to cast Lena Headey as Cersei, they decided that TV Cersei would be less sexual in terms of how the character was portrayed on screen. I think that has been clear from the outset.

Lena Headey is an attractive woman and I don't at all want to be taken to mean that I don't think she is. I repeat, she is an attractive woman. But she just isn't the kind of woman that is going to make most men forget themselves in the way that GRRM wrote the character.

Trying to add that MILF layer to Cersei at this stage with Ned in the godswood would have seemed forced and entirely unbelievable. They wisely didn't go there, imo.

[Steel_Wind]

This isn't directed towards you but a general point on Tywin skinning the stag. Nobles hunt for sport, not for food, and dressing your kill is part of the hunting game. I can definitely see the highborn doing that to their own kills as part of the whole manliness ritual hunting represents for them.

Exactly. Field dressing a deer is seen as a nobleman's task; indeed, to kill any deer was always a right reserved to the nobility in the middle and late medieval periods. Being caught at "stealing" a deer from a nobleman's forest was a crime invariably punishable by death.

In contrast, slaughtering and skinning a domestiacted animal like a pig, sheep, goat or cow would defnitely be a peasant's task and would be beneath a man like Tywin Lannister.

It is a distinction with a difference.

[Mad Queen]

If he were in Casterly Rock, if he had gone hunting for sport, I could see him skinning his kill as part of a ritual. But he is in the middle of a war, his men are attacking the riverlands, Jaime is about to fight against Edmure and so on. Shouldn't he have left hunting and cooking to a servant and be reading maps, discussing strategy with his men or practicing swordplay with them?

[Ran]

It's not really a war at this stage. A small party of men have been sent into the riverlands. He's chilling, waiting for the time to be ripe to go forward and begin the real hostilities. Until then, he's in a holding pattern. So why not do the sort of things nobles actually do?

[legba11]

Tywin is not in the middle of a war (yet). He is preparing for one as he is the type of leader who sees these things coming. He is sending part of his host with Jaime to start a war. Chances are he and many of his fellow nobles were quite bored, just sitting around waiting for other bannermen to arrive. Hunting for the sake of food and morale is likely one of the most important things they could do. It's not like they had strategy to plan yet.

[Wras]

It's not really a war at this stage. A small party of men have been sent into the riverlands. He's chilling, waiting for the time to be ripe to go forward and begin the real hostilities. Until then, he's in a holding pattern. So why not do the sort of things nobles actually do?

Just like last time!

[ENikolai]

As for Jon being how he is, I think it works fine as he's had a chip on his shoulder from being treated unfairly and has never had any chance to step out of that shadow until he joins the Watch because Cat would never be fine with him getting a decent position at Winterfell. I think that works just as well in his late teens as people have held grudges on life for far longer than that.

I would agree with this. Incidentally, do you know how old Jon is when he becomes Lord Commander of the Night's Watch in the books? It would certainly be hard to sell him as a Lord Commander in the tv-series, if the actor was even younger than Kit.

[Ser Warpechowski]

Am I the only person in the world who really, really loved the Littlefinger sexposition scene? I don't care whether he would/would not talk that frankly to any of his whores, and I don't care that it was more (oh, no!) sex. Littlefinger knows about screwing people over, and making them like it, and that's what that scene was about for me.

Liked the Tywin scene, though not as much as the Littlefinger scene. That looked like a real stag he was really skinning; if it was, I sure hope they ate it! (And did they have to pay him extra to do that? Ew!)

That scene was bad. They reduced one of the most interesting characters to a boogie man from fairy tales.

The guy is suposed to be talking of the thing that drives his, that gives him strengh while a bunch of whores perform lesbian sex and barely hear what he says.

It was childish. I thought HBO was so good because they could show anything, but once they add a stupid scene just to show sex it makes their freedom seem stupid.