[Book Spoilers] EP107 Discussion

[Renly Baratheon]

I liked the episode and enjoyed both new scenes. Tywin-Jamie because of the way it showed just how much of a dick Tywin is yet his children still hold him in such awe(His dickness totally inherited by Cersei). And the LF porno scene not just because of Roz's incredible rack but because it gives the incite into just how much of a Machiavellian the little twitwad is

[Mad Queen]

I have a few questions about the episode:

- Why did HBO include a porn film trailer before the episode started? :stillsick:

- Why was Jaime getting advice from a butcher and calling him father?

- Why didn't anyone complain when Jon and Sam left a few parts out of their vows?

Robert's death scene could have been a lot better. Robert should at least have tried to sound like somebody who is dying. But Drogo's speech made up for it. Well done.

Littlefinger doesn't bother me in the light of all the other things that bother me.

[malek]

NW liked the episode but also pointed to the sad fact that Gillen's probably the weakest cast member right now. It's not that he can't act; it's that he's made some poor choices in how to play the character. Littlefinger should act like a lighthearted charmer for whom everything is a joke. Instead, Gillen is playing him like a flat-voiced sociopath. The scary thing about Littlefinger should be his opacity - underneath the charming facade lies what? Instead, between D&D's obvious writing and Gillen's acting choices, there's not a lot of mystery there.

Said long ago that John Simm would have made a perfect Littlefinger.

[Mad Queen]

Replying to a post from the closed thread:

At the same time' date=' the overall message of that scene encompasses how LF can go- effortlessly -from being perceived (correctly) as a self-possessed schemer who wants only what is best for himself and somehow transform himself (in the eyes of his "partner") into somebody who is seen (incorrectly) as having scruples and morals and will do what is best for others. The whole point of the scene- once we look beyond the flapping boobs and the moans -is that Littlefinger creeps not onto you physically but into you mentally. As he states, he knows that he is "...not fooling them …" and that "they know what he is…" They know what LF is, and its his job- much like the whore's job, "to make them forget what they know… that takes time…"

By the time its all over, the customer thinks he;s actually really GOOD at this; that he has the ability- has always had the ability -to win the slut over. The slut- the Littlefinger - cannot POSSIBLY stand in the way of a man who is just so ... GOOD! After all, Ned "knows he’s better than other men..." Are we really to believe that Ned Stark did not think this? That Ned Stark had not forgotten what LF was? And that LF had not MADE him forget? [/quote']

When did LF ever make Ned think he is a better man? LF's whole attitude was 'Stark, you don't have a clue about what you are doing, but I'm helping you anyway despite all your foolishness'. He didn't use a whore's strategy at all, unless LF's being despicable was supposed to make Ned feel better in comparison.

[Été]

Said long ago that John Simm would have made a perfect Littlefinger.

John Simm would be a great Roose Bolton.

[legba11]

Just voted on ep 7 - gave it a 9. Excellent acting spearheaded by the actor playing Lord Baelish. His line delivery is precisely as written - sinister beyond belief. Petyr glides along in that perfect costume as though he's an evil spirit - feet barely touching the ground.

The on-the-job-whore training scene was gratuitous but probably added with men in particular in mind. Said as much to my hubby and he gave a devlish chuckle which confirmed the motivation. He did not disapprove :rofl: You guys never saw a girl on girl scene you didn't like - right? So, HBO wanted to make sure you were happy in that way as well.

With the exception of that particular scene, I thought tonight's ep was outstanding. Lovely landscape at the heart tree ceremony and great comraderie between Jon, Sam and their black watch brothers.

Almost don't want next week's episode to arrive too quickly, because I fear it will bring a strong shock for non-readers and cause readers to revisit those dark moments at the end of Book 1. Only consolation is knowing that S2 is already in planning stages. :thumbsup:

Ned isn't dying till Episode 9. Look at the titles. Unless you mean some other dark moment.

Tywin is skinning the deer he killed (I assume) because it shows the audience the difference between him and his two "true" children (Jaime and Cersei). They both walk around like Lannisters and boss people around liek Lannisters yet they aren't always willing to do the hard work that is needed. He is skinning the deer because he killed the deer and he is going to eat the deer. He sees his children as poiled brats living off his legacy and hard work. Listen to the disdain he has for Jaime.

Tywin's children all dissapoint him. They don't live up to legend of Tywin Lannister. They all got one aspect, yet lacking the other two peices fall short in their fathers (and their own) eyes. Jaime has his martial prowess, he is the warrior Tywin. Able to lead men and kill men. Cersei has his drive and ambition, yet lacks his cunning and skill for playing "The Game". Being a woman, she could never be the warrior Tywin. Tyrion is the closest to Tywin (There are only two people in the books who KNOW Tywin and who we hear from, and his sister says this directly). However, he cannot be the warrior Tywin, he cannot lead men, and despite his valor when needed, cannot be that Tywin. He also does not have Cersei's drive. He is happy being rich, being drunk, being whored. He does not really want to play "The Game". He also hated by his father because he killed the only thing Tywin truly loved other than himself.

I can't wait to see Charles Dance give his stare for the time.

[NW Deserter]

I have a few questions about the episode:

- Why did HBO include a porn film trailer before the episode started? :stillsick:

- Why was Jaime getting advice from a butcher and calling him father?

- Why didn't anyone complain when Jon and Sam left a few parts out of their vows?

Robert's death scene could have been a lot better. Robert should at least have tried to sound like somebody who is dying. But Drogo's speech made up for it. Well done.

Littlefinger doesn't bother me in the light of all the other things that bother me.

-Really? I don't recall that, I guess I tuned in right at 8:00 and saw no previews/trailers! :stunned:

- :rolleyes: I saw nothing wrong with that characterization. That's the kind of thing Tywin would do, he's proud but not arrogant.

-Because I didn't think it mattered, plus I don't have them memorized or anything so it seemed fine to me until someone on here brought it up. :P

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

I'm surprised not more has been made about the changes to the scene between Cersei and Ned. Quite obviously they've decided to change Cersei's character a lot but it's getting to the point where it's getting too excessive for my taste.

What was changed? Cersei got one of Ned's lines, I think, but other than that, it was nearly word for word from the book?

I did warn my husband about the LF/whore scene. I told him to ignore the girls and listen to what LF says (not sure he completely ignored the girls :rolleyes: ) Afterwards he said "we learned about LF in that scene. he was talking about himself there." so I guess it works.

A long time ago, I guess I spoiled my husband and told him Ned dies. I feel so bad about this. He was asking after the ending last night. "So when does Ned die?" "You said he dies, does he get executed?" I had to nod and not say anything else. He is really into the series and with Robert dead he is not looking forward to Ned dying too. (they were his two favorites going into the show, but Tyrion has joined them as a favorite and he is a huge Charles Dance fan so he is looking forward to more from him)

I found I was able to pretty much block out the whores on the rewatch.

[Mad Queen]

- :rolleyes: I saw nothing wrong with that characterization. That's the kind of thing Tywin would do, he's proud but not arrogant.

It wasn't too bad, but it didn't seem like something Tywin 'the proud and splendid' Lannister would do at that time. He should be doing something like planning a war or polishing his golden armor encrusted with jewels.

[NW Deserter]

It wasn't too bad, but it didn't seem like something Tywin 'the proud and splendid' Lannister would do at that time. He should be doing something like planning a war or polishing his golden armor encrusted with jewels.

But he was planning a war. He explicitly said that he was going to give half his men to Jaime to take to Riverrun. I don't think his opening scene needed to be all the details of his plan. As far as him polishing his armor, him skinning the stag gives similar characterization (not afraid to get his hands dirty), and it's a lot more symbolic.

Sorry, just playing devil's advocate. :)

[Jaxom 1974]

I missed seeing Lancel this week. His wardrobe is consistently the funniest thing in this series.

See, I keep thinking Prince Valium from Spaceballs...

I also agree with Sergio - Charles Dance is great. I can't imagine Lord Tywin actually skinning a stag in the middle of battle preparations, so I don't agree 100% with the directorial decision, but I DO think he'd know how and he'd do it cleanly, efficiently and properly if he did. Dance was amazing.

I'll give you the timimg, if not the location, for the skinning was slightly off, but otherwise everything else rang true from what I'd expect out of Tywin.

[Mya Stone]

Sigh. You guys are a bunch of wet blankets.

I thoroughly enjoyed the Tywin-Jaime scene. The beauty of it was that he could still instill so much fear in his own son without even making eye contact with him. And when you did get the "Tywin stare," it chilled you to the bone. (At least it did for me.) Not to mention, the distance between the two characters speaking. Once Tywin walks over to Jaime and places his hand on his cheek, you get the feeling that this is the most affectionate he's been to his firstborn son in years - if not ever (the irony of the fact that his hands were just more intimately gut-deep in stag is not lost on me). But with that motion, he tells Jaime that it is time for him to become the man he was destined to be. And gosh-darnit, doesn't that just inspire Jaime?

And yeah yeah, symbolism blah blah, but I appreciated the fact that Tywin handled the stag with such efficiency. He wasted not a single motion in his dressing of his kill. That is very much in character.

I'm not even going to get into the Littlefinger scene. It's been talked to death already. It worked for me.

To whoever said that Lancel is dressed like Edward from Final Fantasy, :lol: SO MUCH TRUTH. Maybe Pycelle can smack him with his walking stick for the full effect.

Altogether, for me, the episodes are just getting better and better. Can't wait for the final 3 episodes.

[Humble Asskicker]

After all the build-up for the Littlefinger brothel scene, I was vastly disappointed. I was expecting a type of explicit sex scene unprecedented for HBO...but it was not. I half-expected to see a woman actually get fingered in the ass or something, but the whole thing was lightly simulated. It was just another sex scene; not particularly shocking either. It pales to some of the stuff on Spartacus.

I didn't even find the exposition egregious. It expounded on necessary information for those unfamiliar to the books and actually gave Littlefinger a history to flesh him out. It reminded me of some of Swearengen's many monologues, though less baroque.

Let's see, what other scenes received melodramatic outcries of despair and much gnashing of teeth from the obsessives? Ah, the Tywin scene. Apparently because he was never mentioned to have dressed animals, he would *never* do something like hunt or skin what he killed. He just sits in his solar all day, reading and adjudicating. I imagine that sort of sweaty bureaucratic exercise is what keeps him as fit as a man half his age. Obviously.

Also, Ghost barking. This is another pet peeve for some people. In the books, Ghost never made a peep. This was menacing in the books. In a live action show, a silent Ghost would make him seem like a fairly docile animal, perhaps something of a halfwit too. Dogs bark, yes; wolves bark too. If you can't separate your mental image of the books' characters to the point that you must absolutely HATE another interpretation, then I guess that's unfortunate for you. But just because you don't like the scene doesn't mean that it isn't a good scene. It's simply a good scene that you have the misfortune to dislike. And Ghost barking as the Night's Watch headed off to the weirwood was a good scene.

So all in all, great stuff, made even better by the ever reliable bitching of obsessives. I just love seeing their noses tweaked.

[NW Deserter]

My biggest problem with the LF scene wasn't even the sex itself it was that the moaning was drowning out some of his words. It really lessened the dramatic effect of what he was saying, as if the director was intentionally trying to get us to watch the sex instead of listen to LF. JMO I guess.

[julandro]

I missed seeing Lancel this week. His wardrobe is consistently the funniest thing in this series.

As you can imagine, me too I miss my dear Lancel. But I want to see a scene of him and Cersei. NOW! -_-

[Kaitscralt]

Agree with the Humble Asskicker's post basically 100%. After reading a weeks worth of people complaining I was expecting to see some of the worst scenes ever -- and they were pretty typical for HBO.

The only thing that bugged me was how Robert's death seemed much more abrupt on the show than in the books. Maybe Renly could have explained more clearly to Eddard what happened before he got there.

Still, another great episode for me. Lots of moving stuff, including Drogo's speech.

And the Jorah pardon makes more sense to me now after seeing it. Assuming that the letter said, 'Daenerys is going to be assassinated, so you are free to come home,' makes Jorah's staying seem even more epic. Instead of the poisoned wine being an intentionally failed assassination so that Jorah could get closer to Daenerys by saving her and Varys could remain loyal to both sides, this time it looks like a real attempt on Daenerys (Viserys was always the more important one to the Targaryen loyalists, and nobody knows he is dead yet -- Daenerys is expendable) that Jorah realized was going to happen and saved her just in time. It worked for me.

[wolverine]

Tywin is skinning the deer he killed (I assume) because it shows the audience the difference between him and his two "true" children (Jaime and Cersei). They both walk around like Lannisters and boss people around liek Lannisters yet they aren't always willing to do the hard work that is needed. He is skinning the deer because he killed the deer and he is going to eat the deer. He sees his children as poiled brats living off his legacy and hard work. Listen to the disdain he has for Jaime.

This was my favorite of the added scenes and I think it almost perfectly introduces Tywin (Dance rocks!). Even so it is a bit ridiculous that Tywin is skinning his own stag, on a table for some reason? I have probably skinned a 100+ deer and would hang every one if possible. Plus you don't gut an animal like he did and pull out ropes of garland like entrail. Anyhow that is really nitpicky as very few viewers have proabably ever butchered an animal or seen anything butchered. The scene definitely shows that he is not afraid to get dirty and get things done.

Hated the LF whore coaching scene. Ros is very annoying at this point. I would say that I have found LF's portrayal spot on so far though.

Jason Momoa is Khal Drogo.

I thought Jorah's actor was too small and old looking but he has done an excellent job.

Was Theon a pathetic pervert in the books?

Couple people have pointed out how bad Renly's casting is and how changed he is from the books. I agree 100% with this.

[NW Deserter]

Was Theon a pathetic pervert in the books?

Yes. It's just not really revealed until his PoV's - his attempt to be more like his people with that chick on the boat, his groping of Asha to try and exert his self-perceived superiority, and the fact that he aggressively fucks the Winterfell girl just to ground himself when he sees his plan falling apart. Sex is something he always latches onto to "prove" himself, and if you ask me it makes him that much more pathetic.

[ser_nerdick]

What was changed? Cersei got one of Ned's lines, I think, but other than that, it was nearly word for word from the book?

In the book Cersei flirts with Ned, placing her hand on his thigh, making suggestive comments, etc. It's one of many examples where Cersei attempts to use sex as power (or as described by Bronn later, the never-empty purse between her legs).

In the tv series, Cersei's sexuality is completely changed, or rather nonexistent (other than that she has sex with her brother). There is not a hint of flirty sexiness in the character as played by Headey, just a cold bitch. There isn't a hint of anything actually, just a one-dimensional character who is always a scowling mean bitch.

[NW Deserter]

I don't think it's fair to call her one-dimensional. We've seen at least one scene where she turns on her charm, back at Winterfell with Sansa. Granted, that was a long time ago, but I think we'll see more of that in this next episode when she coerces Sansa into siding with her.