[ADwD Spoilers] Is the letter real?

[Basileus777]

Wyman's dead isn't he? So whose going to give the order to betray the Boltons?

He's wounded not dead.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

But why would Stannis fight, the only reason they marched on Winterfell was for Arya, now that they know it's not Arya, and have the fake Arya anyway, why wouldn't they that retreat to Torren's Square. Trying to siege Winterfell is kind of pointless, isn't it?

[Basileus777]

But why would Stannis fight, the only reason they marched on Winterfell was for Arya, now that they know it's not Arya, and have the fake Arya anyway, why wouldn't they that retreat to Torren's Square. Trying to siege Winterfell is kind of pointless, isn't it?

Bolton could have initiated the battle. With division in their ranks and Fake Arya gone, they may have been forced to press the issue.

[Howling North]

He's wounded not dead.

Where was it confirmed exactly? I thought I read that his throat was opened up by a Frey and that he was lying on the floor in a pool of blood, after which Bolton broke up the fight and sent them against Stannis. But the chapter itself was admittedly very chaotic.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I think it's implied that the sword cut one of his chins and not his throat. Plus I think had he been fatally wounded his knights would have started a battle inside Winterfell.

[Howling North]

They did, but I guess it wasn't exactly confirmed what his condition was after he hit the floor, which is why I was confused. Good if Lord Two-Fate is still kicking though.

[Basileus777]

Where was it confirmed exactly? I thought I read that his throat was opened up by a Frey and that he was lying on the floor in a pool of blood, after which Bolton broke up the fight and sent them against Stannis. But the chapter itself was admittedly very chaotic.

Not his throat. He got his chin cut open and then collapsed on the floor. Frey threatened to finish the job, but there was no indication that Wyman was in danger of dying.

[Gaston de Foix]

It's a bit surprising that the Manderly knights didn't take instant revenge, but there you are. Wyman isn't dead, and will probably recover.

[banditry]

there was definitely mention later that he wasn't dead, can't remember the exact wording.

[Howling North]

Kay, thanks for the confirmation, I feel better about that now :D

[olennaredyne]

It's a bit surprising that the Manderly knights didn't take instant revenge, but there you are. Wyman isn't dead, and will probably recover.

Well, there was a squabble afterwards that ended up with several dead bodies, two of them Freys.

[corbaekin]

I think it's completely plausible that some of this could be accurate and some not. For example-Mance could well have been captured, as he was supposed to "catch up". It doesn't ever say that he's dead, and I think it would be completely like Bolton to have kept him alive but wrapped in the skins of the women he took with him-who are not Characters That Matter, and so can easily be killed offscreen.

I think however, it is /much more likely/ that Stannis and his people did not engage-once they had fake-Arya, they would have wanted to leave. But Bolton still needs some victory-he still needs to lure someone into the trap that is Winterfell. I think once he's realized that Stannis is pinned down or not coming to him, and he has lost the girl, he may send to Jon on the off chance that Jon will blaze off and come running-as indeed he plans to do, so it'd be a good guess- bringing the people he needs to get some kind of victory.

[Sword of the Morning]

Let's think outside the box here.

Why do we assume that Ramsay wrote the letter?

Here's a possible scenario:

We know something is crooked and AT LEAST Manderly is going to stab the Boltons and Freys in the back and turn on them. Now Manderly actually represents a pretty damn important part of their strength so that is already a strike against the Bad Guys.

We also know for a fact that Umber will not march against Umber. Not sure how that was ever resolved by Stannis but the implication is that Whoresbane dare not turn against the Freys because the Greatjon is held hostage at the Twins. I still think it quite likely though that when push comes to shove, the Umbers will wound up fighting the Freys and Boltons rather than the other way around.

So that's strike two already.

Finally, we have Arnolf Karstark supposedly on his way to double cross Stannis. But it can be as equally likely that he will turn right around and backstab the Boltons and Freys. The old triple cross, double agent trick.

Remember that practically EVERY Northern house had someone at that Red Wedding and as Wyman Manderly says: "The North do not forget."

Also, does anyone SERIOUSLY think that the Iron Bank is going to show up at the end and get murdered with Stannis and his forces??

If they DID destroy Stannis' army where the fuck is Theon, Asha, and Jeyne? The Letter ASKS FOR REEK AND ARYA so obviously they are still at large. How exactly after 7 days of constant battle in freezing cold and snow?

Is it really likely that Mance Rayder got captured AGAIN by Ramsay's men with at least 3 of his spearwives with him? Surely he knows already what sort of man Ramsay is. More likely he would have fought to the death if things turned south that quickly. How the hell did Ramsay catch the last one? The super quick and agile Squirrel who could fucking climb walls like Spider man?? Is that likely or reasonable?

How the hell does anyone besides Jon even give a flying fart about Mance Rayder let alone Roose and/or Ramsay?

And why the hell would Ramsay care a rat's ass about Shireen or Queen Selyse or Val or the kid for that matter? That is flat out fucking idiotic.

But if Ramsay DIDN'T write that letter who did and WHY would he want those specific hostages?

The only person I can think of who KNOWS everything in that letter would be . . .

Mance Rayder himself.

He would obviously know that he had been falsely burned.

He would know about Reek (Theon) because he questioned him as well as Arya obviously (although he WOULDN'T know that she was fake.

He knows he has 6 spearwives with him.

He has EXCELLENT REASON to want Shireen, Selyse, Val, and the kid. Val is his sister-in-law, he thinks the kid is his son, and keeping Shireen and Selyse would give him excellent leverage against Stannis.

He wants Reek(Theon) and Arya for obvious reasons as well.

Does he REALLY think that he can get Jon to give up these people? Maybe, maybe not. Likely it is a ploy to get Jon to march away from the Wall. To what end, I have no idea.

At this point, it is as likely as not that Ramsay and the rest of the Boltons are done. What do you think the reaction is going to be from the Manderlys, the Umbers, and the Karstarks when you let fake Arya vanish into thin air in front of you and she turns up missing the tip of her nose with Stannis' forces outside Winterfell?

More likely, it's Stannis' army in Winterfell and Mance next to a roaring fire writing this letter.

To me this is classic Martin in the sense of reading one thing at the end of book 5 and then SEEING it for real at the beginning of book 6 with the two events sharing NOTHING in common.

I don't care much for Stannis but fear not, he's alive. Just like another letter speaking of Loras Tyrell's "sure death" was greatly exaggerated.

[feardeathbywater]

The letter reeks of desperation. It sounds like someone who desperately wants/needs leverage.

[Gaston de Foix]

Let's think outside the box here.

Why do we assume that Ramsay wrote the letter?

<snip>

At this point, it is as likely as not that Ramsay and the rest of the Boltons are done. What do you think the reaction is going to be from the Manderlys, the Umbers, and the Karstarks when you let fake Arya vanish into thin air in front of you and she turns up missing the tip of her nose with Stannis' forces outside Winterfell?

More likely, it's Stannis' army in Winterfell and Mance next to a roaring fire writing this letter.

To me this is classic Martin in the sense of reading one thing at the end of book 5 and then SEEING it for real at the beginning of book 6 with the two events sharing NOTHING in common.

I don't care much for Stannis but fear not, he's alive. Just like another letter speaking of Loras Tyrell's "sure death" was greatly exaggerated.

no offence but this post is the definition of wishful thinking. Manderly has already made clear that he won't act against Bolton without holding Rickon. There is no sign that Davos has succeeded in his quest. Manderly is looking to his own purposes, not necessarily Stannis'. He wants a Stark to rule behind from.

if you think Stannis has it in him to forgive Karstark's treachery, you don't know him. Karstark will burn.

As for Reek and Arya, well two fugitives in the snow, they could escape. Stannis might even have sent them north with a strong escort before engaging in battle.

There is an obvious reason why Ramsay would want Shireen, Selyse, Val and the rest. Excellent hostages, gifts to the Iron Throne, and useful to bring any errant men of Stannis' left around. And btw, he's well within his rights to demand them. The Watch should take no part in the battles of the Seven Kingdoms.

[Howling North]

Ramsey can't prove anything in terms of his involvement, Jon NOT stopping Mance is part of him not taking any part. He has no authority over Mance, he was Mel's creature now.

[Sword of the Morning]

How does Ramsay even know about all these people unless he tortured it out of Mance.

I have a hard time seeing Mance being reduced like that.

We go from a situation where the Iron Bank with a half dead Theon and Jeyne getting dumped into Stannis' army and then all of a sudden complete and utter victory with them going missing again?

No, it doesn't fly at all.

And Manderly is playing his own game. He's already killing Freys, baking them in pies, and offing Frey kids.

Also, read that Davos viewpoint again. There is NO evidence to suggest that Wyman necessarily wants to wait to act UNTIL HE GETS RICKON. He wants the kid because as far as he knows, Rickon represents the last living heir of his liege lord of Stark. He's using his future fealty to Stannis as a bait to Davos to get what he wants but that doesn't mean he's going to stay still until Davos presents him. If the circumstances are right and he thinks he can get away with it, he'll take out the Boltons and Freys, hell he's already started.

Rickon for Manderly's fealty to STANNIS, nothing more.

[tozka]

It is possible that Ramsay does not have Mance but he had captured some or all of the spearwives, had them tortured, and they told him that Abel is Mance Ryder and about his children and all that they knew

[imalittleteapot]

Honestly the biggest concern im having is this vague memory of grrm saying something about writing smaller battle scenes because of the tv show, ie they dont have the budget for big battles so he wont write them or he'll write them smaller. I really hope im wrong about that and maybe he was talking about his scripts for the episodes because fucking wow. If this is how he's going to handle the from now.. fucking letters about battles ? His descriptions of the battle scenes were always amongst his strongest writing but now ? Wait for the next book and see ?

Edit - So i don't sound like a total negative ass. I really enjoyed the book especially the focus on the north i just wanted a little more here maybe a bit of closure? "shrug" a single paragraph pov from thron or asha after jons stabbing would have done it for me i think.

[Ser Pistus]

An interesting thing, GRRM was doing fine (what? fine? no, brilliant!) without stupid end-book cliffhangers in the first 3 books. After that, he seems to have fallen in love with this lame tool.