[ADwD Spoilers] Cersei

[Alexia]

She does say in DwD that he was stubborn and Tommen's regent will have more power than Joffrey's ever could, but that's the most critical I remember her ever being of him.

She really is blind to his misdeeds, but when she was about to do her naked walk she thought that if only Joff had done as he had been told, none of this would ever have happened.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

I doubt Sansa's going to care much about how Cersei felt about it, and will think more of what the connotations are for herself. How could Sansa even care how Cersei felt about it? In Sansa's perspective, Cersei's emotions are probably pretty mystifying.

I meant that Sansa would know exactly how it feels to be stripped in public, not that she'd care about any of Cersei's feelings except her shame. But now that I think about it, I wonder which side of the argument presented in this thread she'd choose. Would GRRM have her think: "OMG, I know how humiliating it is to be paraded bare assed in public, I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy, who just happens to be Cersei;" or would she think: "OMG, I know how how humiliating it is to be paraded bare assed in public, PAYBACK IS A BITCH, BITCH!" Such a scene might reveal some of GRRM's intentions behind the Cersei WOS, and I'd like to see it.

[Alexia]

I meant that Sansa would know exactly how it feels to be stripped in public, not that she'd care about any of Cersei's feelings except her shame. But now that I think about it, I wonder which side of the argument presented in this thread she'd choose. Would GRRM have her think: "OMG, I know how humiliating it is to be paraded bare assed in public, I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy, who just happens to be Cersei;" or would she think: "OMG, I know how how humiliating it is to be paraded bare assed in public, PAYBACK IS A BITCH, BITCH!" Such a scene might reveal some of GRRM's intentions behind the Cersei WOS, and I'd like to see it.

Good point, but remember that in ACOK Sansa commented at one point that she always felt safer when Cersei was present to restrain her son. I'm thinking she may not personally blame Cersei for her stripping at all, though she may still be pleased to see suffering and shame come to Cersei and House Lannister, regardless.

[LAJN]

Isn't it common for fiction authors to be accused of having the negative attributes which they give to their characters?

I remember reading King's 'On Writing' he said how when 'The Dead Zone' was published he received a lot of hate mail because the politician character kicked a dog to death, or in other instances where he writes racist characters some readers accused King of being racist.

It's utter NONSENSE. Stop vilifying Martin.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

. . . she may still be pleased to see suffering and shame come to Cersei and House Lannister, regardless.

Indeed she may.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

Isn't it common for fiction authors to be accused of having the negative attributes which they give to their characters?

I remember reading King's 'On Writing' he said how when 'The Dead Zone' was published he received a lot of hate mail because the politician character kicked a dog to death, or in other instances where he writes racist characters some readers accused King of being racist.

It's utter NONSENSE. Stop vilifying Martin.

It's the intentional fallacy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intentional_fallacy

"External evidence is concerned with claims about why the artist made the work: reasons external to the fact of the work in itself. Evidence of this type is directly concerned with what the artist may have intended to do even or especially when it is not apparent from the work itself, and is an example of an intentional fallacy."

We don't know GRRM. It's a huge assumption, and a pretty unpleasant one, to say he wrote Cersei's humiliation scene b/c he's a misogynist, it was for fan wanking, or it was meant to titillate. I think it's enough to say that the culture of Westeros (and indeed, his entire universe) is very sexist, so misogynistic things happen. Writing about them doesn't mean he is doing it out of some personal views or a desire to say something negative about women. I'd like to see how it all plays out before I judge whether it was necessary to the story. You can definitely assert that you don't like to read fiction that contains such graphic depictions of human debasement (and the Theon stuff came close for me), but I wouldn't take that next step and make insinuations about the author's character based on it.

I also think people get a little too defensive over their favorite characters. Bad things are going to happen to them, usually b/c of their own choices. It doesn't pay t get all emotional and angry at the author for doing it. They are Martin's creations and he has to do with them what he will to make the story turn out as he has planned.

[rue721]

it's enough to say that the culture of Westeros (and indeed, his entire universe) is very sexist, so misogynistic things happen.

Do you (inclusive of everybody, it just seemed weird to say "you guys" considering this question :P) think Cersei's Walk was misogynistic?

I *don't* mean "is GRRM misogynisitic," I mean the actual Walk, within the world of Westeros?

Personally, I thought Cersei's punishment was about shaming her, and the High Septon et al thought that she would be most shamed if things that are socially important to her as a woman were taken away (her aura of beauty, modesty, youth)...but I don't think that just because the punishment took into account that she was a woman (that it was gendered), it was misogynistic.

Is it that she was punished at all? In my opinion, she has a lot of power and other people who wanted it are trying to take it away by publicly shaming her. While I agree that Westeros as a culture is misogynistic and Cersei's punishment was *gendered,* I don't know that the actual punishment was misogynistic.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

Is it that she was punished at all? In my opinion, she has a lot of power and other people who wanted it are trying to take it away by publicly shaming her. While I agree that Westeros as a culture is misogynistic and Cersei's punishment was *gendered,* I don't know that the actual punishment was misogynistic.

It is that she was punished at all. Robert committed adultery left, right, and center, fathered 16 bastards, and no one batted an eye. In fact, Ned Stark is viewed as a priss because he only had one bastard. Yet Cersei does the same thing and she has to parade through the streets with a shaved crotch and be viciously publicly humiliated. I mean, she could have had to walk through the streets in a shift. She could even have had to do it naked, but shaved head to toe? That seems to indicate a deep seated hatred of female sexuality, such that it must be utterly crushed and the woman who enjoys freedom in that area displayed to the world for ridicule.

IMO Cersei was punished for the wrong thing. I don't even judge her for the incest with Jaime, b/c as icky as it seems, it makes sense emotionally for them. I think passing off her bastards as Robert's children was the real crime, and aborting one of his children, and it was plenty bad. Whatever she did sexually after Robert was dead should be no one's business. By devaluing her physicality and making her ashamed of the very things that make her a woman, the punishment was misogynist IMO. She's middle aged mother of 3, yet people are mocking her for sagging breasts and stretch marks. The idea that a woman can't be considered beautiful or powerful or even relevant at all if she is not a gorgeous 17 year old is misogynist. She had sex with someone other than her (DEAD) husband! Not only is she a whore, she is literally garbage. It was pretty extreme (not to mention, the expectation that a widow be sexually chaste is kind of ridiculous, and heinously punished if she is not). Now granted, it could have been worse, but IMO that is always true (except maybe in Theon's case... though Vargo Hoat might beg to differ) and isn't sufficient to abrogate a charge of misogyny.

I say this as a reader who despises Cersei and hopes that she is laid low in the end. I see no chance for a redemption for her, as she has shown little capacity or willingness to reflect. I understand why GRRM wrote it this way, and in no way cast any aspersions on him as a person. Part of me wonders if the purpose of this wasn't to show what Dany's reception is going to be like... she is a pretty sexually liberated woman for Westeros.

[Hielo y Fuego]

It is that she was punished at all...

I agree with all of the above. Yet, given the fact that male promiscuity is still celebrated in our world in this very day and age, while women are still shunned for sleeping with more one partner (in certain cultures, more than others perhaps, but still a reality in our world today) and based on the kind of medieval atmosphere that ASoIaF is set on, I believe this is perfectly understandable.

Most religions in our world have always been misogynous and male chauvinistic in nature. The mere fact that the image of the Creator is seen as a male (God instead of Goddess) for instance, is a clear sign that points in this direction. Most religious leaders such as priests, rabbis, ministers, mulahs, so on and so forth, are males while women are relegated to a much lesser status within the hierarchical structure of most organized religions. Given that Westeros is well, the West, it only makes sense that the Faith of the Seven would be more akin to real life western religions (including Islam, to a certain point).

Ancient Hebrews, the Inquisition, some Muslim communities...they have all done similar things to women accused of carnal sin throughout history. Hence, Cersei's punishment for crimes of the flesh (especially given her stature as Queen Regent of the realm) makes perfect sense from a historical perspective, regardless of how misogynous, despicable or appalling it may be.

ETA: Oh, and this has got nothing to do with my personal feelings for the character herself. I don't think anyone of us has enough evidence to like/dislike Lord Tytos Lannister's mistress, yet Tywin punished her in the same exact fashion as his daughter was punished. I believe it's GRRM's way to illustrate that this kind of punishment was rather commonplace for certain women in the 7K's, despite how terrible it might be

[rue721]

Robert committed adultery left, right, and center, fathered 16 bastards, and no one batted an eye. In fact, Ned Stark is viewed as a priss because he only had one bastard. Yet Cersei does the same thing and she has to parade through the streets with a shaved crotch and be viciously publicly humiliated.

I think it's also worth taking into account that both those men were killed (by Cersei and Joffrey respectively) primarily because of their attempts to control Cersei's sexuality. Robert makes it difficult for her to be with Jaime or to rule in her own right, he's dead. Ned wants to out Cersei and Jaime and make their children bastards, and he's dead.

The reason they might have died for trying to take control of Cersei's sexuality is because it was the most powerful weapon in her arsenal -- she couldn't let anyone else co-opt it. I think the High Septon tried to take it away not because he cares about her sexuality per se, but because he wants to make Cersei as powerless as possible in order to leap into any resulting power vacuum himself. If the source of her power were her physical strength, I think he would have maimed her. If the source of her power were her cunning, I think he would have made her play the buffoon and completely discredited her. It just happened that in the misogynistic culture of Westeros, Cersei's biggest source of power is her sexuality, so that's what he attacked.

I think the reason Cersei was punished isn't actually because she was too slutty for the High Septon to abide, it's because she needed to be neutralized, and within their misogynistic society, they assume that neutralizing her sexuality neutralizes *her.*

Well, I guess once you're wondering whether a gendered punishment taking place in a misogynistic society in order to take away a person's power, power which is really only the reflected power she's managed to use from her father, husband, and son anyway, is misogynistic, you're just splitting hairs. In the end, I will say that it seems to be that trying to control a woman's sexuality -- whether you are that woman or not -- leads to shame and death :P.

But anybody could have told Cersei that. Trying to fuck men into submission has worked WHEN? I think maybe the only time it has ever worked is when Tywin did it by making Tyrion fuck himself into submission (to Tywin) via raping Tysha. And even that managed to come back and bite Tywin in the ass.

I say this as a reader who despises Cersei and hopes that she is laid low in the end.

I'm really interested in how Cersei changes her methods post-Walk. I guess she's going to do something in the name of religion and claim that power for her own now? I would hate that, but I can see it happening. Cersei always clings to the biggest, strongest thing she can find.

ETA: complete sentences. Not that one, though. :P

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

I think it's also worth taking into account that both those men were killed (by Cersei and Joffrey respectively) primarily because of their attempts to control Cersei's sexuality. Robert makes it difficult for her to be with Jaime or to rule in her own right, he's dead. Ned wants to out Cersei and Jaime and make their children bastards, and he's dead.

I see your point. However, if she didn't live in a misogynist society to begin with, she may have wound up living a more fulfilled life, and her "dangerous" sexuality never would have killed anyone.

The reason they might have died for trying to take control of Cersei's sexuality is because it was the most powerful weapon in her arsenal -- she couldn't let anyone else co-opt it. I think the High Septon tried to take it away not because he cares about her sexuality per se, but because he wants to make Cersei as powerless as possible in order to leap into any resulting power vacuum himself. If the source of her power were her physical strength, I think he would have maimed her. If the source of her power were her cunning, I think he would have made her play the buffoon and completely discredited her. It just happened that in the misogynistic culture of Westeros, Cersei's biggest source of power is her sexuality, so that's what he attacked.

Yes, this is a very good point, and I see the line you're trying to draw between the punishment being misogynist and the intent of the punishment being less about misogyny and more about hobbling her where she's strongest. The misogyny comes into play because the society deems a woman's powerful sexuality to be a crime, punishable by public humiliation of her in a very gendered way.

I think the reason Cersei was punished isn't actually because she was too slutty for the High Septon to abide, it's because she needed to be neutralized, and within their misogynistic society, they assume that neutralizing her sexuality neutralizes *her.*

OK, fair enough. I see what you are saying, though I do think it's splitting hairs: a misogynistic society seeks to punish a powerful woman who uses her sexuality politically by humiliating her sexually and belittling her beauty. The High Septon may not personally care who Cersei fucks, but he DOES care that she's empowered sexually and she uses it pro-actively, and so must crush her. That's pretty misogynist.

Now I'm wondering if it's worse to be maimed than it is to be publicly humiliated.

In the end, I will say that it seems to be that trying to control a woman's sexuality -- whether you are that woman or not -- leads to shame and death :P.

Well, she certainly makes anyone who gets in her way miserable, but I hardly think it's true of all women in the series. Look at poor Sansa and Arya: they have to efface their identities almost completely to survive without a man to protect them, though maybe once they realize their sexuality, they will get a lot more dangerous. And we do have Brienne, Catelyn, Asha, the Queen of Thorns, and the Sand Snakes to show that women can be more than the pawns and sex objects of men. But these are extraordinary women (who writes novels featuring boring, submissive women?), and except for maybe the Sand Snakes in relatively liberated Dorne, none of these women are explicitly using their sexuality for power.

I'm really interested in how Cersei changes her methods post-Walk. I guess she's going to do something in the name of religion and claim that power for her own now? I would hate that, but I can see it happening. Cersei always clings to the biggest, strongest thing she can find.

Can she credibly do that? Will anyone take it seriously? The High Septon wants her powerless. Varys is using her as a tool to destabilize the realm to make way for a Targaryen, to be discarded at the first sign of uselessness. Jaime is through with her, Tyrion wants to kill her. Even if her champion wins the trial by combat, at best she will be a diminished figure as long as the Tyrells are on top. Will anyone buy a jailhouse conversion? Maybe if the High Septon sees a use for her as a convert. But I still see her as subject to the power of men. That is her bane and the source of her bitterness. She should focus on saving poor Tommen from his prophesied fate.

[rue721]

If she didn't live in a misogynist society to begin with, she may have wound up living a more fulfilled life, and her "dangerous" sexuality never would have killed anyone.

Oh yeah, the society is definitely sexist, and the Walk is definitely a gendered punishment. But I think Cersei was going to get punished and "neutralized" in any case, just because the High Septon wants her power -- it's just that he's looking at the world through a misogynistic lens that doesn't allow him to see a woman's power except in terms of her sexuality. Lucky for Cersei. If the High Septon knew her better, he would probably realize that humiliating her sexually wasn't the way to break her, even if it would be painful to her.

Cersei sees her (female) body as a cage, I think. But the truth is, it could also be a mask that could allow her to horde power other people don't see. I really hope she learns how to use it better, and and play to her strengths (that she's female, that she's a mother) instead of her weaknesses (that she's not a man).

though maybe once they realize their sexuality, they will get a lot more dangerous. And we do have Brienne, Catelyn, Asha, the Queen of Thorns, and the Sand Snakes to show that women can be more than the pawns and sex objects of men.

The issue with some of these women -- especially Sansa, Asha and Brienne, in my opinion -- is that their sexuality still *exists* so since they don't know how to use it, other people who *do* (such as Littlefinger, in Sansa's case) use it *against* them. Their sexuality has power regardless of if anyone is making use of that power, and just because it's *their* sexuality doesn't mean they're the ones who get the chance or have the know-how to wield the power of it. Same thing for Cersei, for most of her life -- her sexuality was great!...For Tywin. He got hold of a lot of power using her as a sexual object. What's weird about that family is that he also seems to try and take control over Tyrion's sexuality, too, and I think that's interesting. But I digress. Brienne is also an interesting case, imo, because it's obvious that her biggest strength is her literal physical strength -- yet people still *want* it to be her sexuality, so people are always talking about how she's a maiden and about what she's wearing, etc. We were discussing a lot of the same type of stuff in the Sansa and Tyrion thread, and I don't mean to be redundant. There's also a lot of stuff about whores that I find really interesting -- who is a whore, for example.

It seems as though any time a woman tries to use sex as a method of grabbing power, she's labeled a whore...but I'm not sure what "whore" means if basically every woman is a whore, let alone if you consider how many of the men are mercenaries, who use their martial power in the same way "whores" use their sexual power. It seems as though the best thing a woman can be is desirable and the best thing a man can be is strong -- so are the best women "whores" and the best men "sellswords"? And where does someone like Littlefinger fall? Well, another long digression.

Now I'm wondering if it's worse to be maimed than it is to be publicly humiliated.

Depends on who you are, I guess. Worse for a strong man to be maimed, worse for a beautiful woman to be humiliated, maybe. THOUGH. It seems as though a maiming is a constant mark of humiliation. It's like making the Walk for the rest of your life. This is why I think Jaime's hand v. Tyrion's nose is an interesting contrast -- they both focus on those injuries *a lot* and they seem to have changed both of them. But what I think is so strange is that though it's obvious why Jaime's missing hand would be symbolic of Jaime lacking his power, of Jaime being crippled, of Jaime having to start a new chapter of his life...Tyrion's nose? It's not like he was good-looking before. What is that symbolic of? How has that crippled him? How was the end of his nose a new chapter of his life? All I can think is "cut off your nose to spite your face" and think that his play at heroism ended up with him turning into a villain. But who. even. knows. :) Anyway, either way, a maiming and a humiliation is about taking away power -- if you can grab power directly, through your body, I think a maiming is more devastating, and if you usually grab power through reflection, through society, then I think a humiliation is more devastating.

Will anyone buy a jailhouse conversion? Maybe if the High Septon sees a use for her as a convert. But I still see her as subject to the power of men. That is her bane and the source of her bitterness.

I think she needs to get over the idea of men will always have power over her. That kind of thinking is like quicksand -- the more she tries to beat men at their own game, the more beaten she is. I think she should start thinking about what she *has* instead of what she doesn't have. She does have religion, and she does have the figure of the Mother to try and use as some sort of propaganda. She has a dead child and a maimed daughter. Why not use that? Why not use her Walk of Shame? If she doesn't go through a big jailhouse conversion and start talking about how she's Mother of the realm, I don't know what the hell she's going to do.

But knowing Cersei she'll go at it ass backwards out of pride, and think about some big strong man saving her while simultaneously trying to play at being a big strong man. I mean, I think that's why she can't let the idea of a "Knight in Shining Armor" go -- she needs to have that person fighting for her, because it makes her feel as though she's fighting for herself. She doesn't want the ID she's got, so she wants to have some man fight in her stead so she can use him as a substitute ID.

So I think what she'll probably do is go around being super pious and do another kind of "fuck him into submission" thing with whatever strong men she can, only this version will rely on piety instead of actual sex. What I would do is make a big thing about how I'm a martyr of the Faith and talk about how the Walk of Shame (which everyone saw, and so everyone feels a part of) was some kind of mythological event that opened me up to the holy spirit and now I'm just a conduit for the Mother and she's ruling through my voice. Why not? It's a way of becoming holier than the High Septon, which would help undermine some of his power, too.

She should start thinking in terms of what *other* people want and try giving them that, instead of thinking of what *she* wants and trying to take it from them, in my opinion. But we'll see. She'll definitely have to do a change-up in terms of methods now, though, which is why I was actually happy to see the Walk of Shame happen (though it was painful to see Cersei brought so low -- poor thing has so much pride, and I just felt terrible for her when she was limping towards the gates leaving a trail of blood behind her).

By the way -- so Tywin's father's whore was made to do a Walk after his death, and now after Tywin's death, his daughter is made to do a Walk. So all of Cersei's power came from *Tywin* just like her grandfather's whore's power all came from her grandfather? That's a shame. I wish so much that Tywin had had his own POV chapters, that man is just a mystery wrapped in an enigma wrapped in a fucking crossword puzzle written in code.

ETA:

I know this is gross, but what I thought was most horrific in the Walk of Shame was all the imagery with blood -- when a piece of food or dung or whatever hits Cersei pretty early in the walk and leaves a streak of brown and red down her leg, and then when she leaves a trail of blood behind her, I couldn't help but think of menstruation. Even though in the moment that just made me cringe for her even more, I think that maybe it also symbolized her "flowering" in a metaphorical way. I think maybe she went from being a "girl" to a "woman" (though those are probably not the best terms since she was definitely already a woman before...). She loses her father, her body is suddenly an object for public ogling, and she "flowers"...that makes it sound like she's making some sort of passage to womanhood, to me -- that's a pretty exact re-do of puberty.

[Winterfell is Burning]

I think it's also worth taking into account that both those men were killed (by Cersei and Joffrey respectively) primarily because of their attempts to control Cersei's sexuality. Robert makes it difficult for her to be with Jaime or to rule in her own right, he's dead. Ned wants to out Cersei and Jaime and make their children bastards, and he's dead.

It had nothing to do with control her sexuality. If Cersei slept with the entire kingdom, but the children she said were Robert's actually were his, there would be no issue (for Ned, at least, although Robert himself probably was long past the point of caring). There's nothing mysogynistic about it.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

Oh yeah, the society is definitely sexist, and the Walk is definitely a gendered punishment. But I think Cersei was going to get punished and "neutralized" in any case, just because the High Septon wants her power -- it's just that he's looking at the world through a misogynistic lens that doesn't allow him to see a woman's power except in terms of her sexuality. Lucky for Cersei. If the High Septon knew her better, he would probably realize that humiliating her sexually wasn't the way to break her, even if it would be painful to her.

Then why not maim her? Scar her face? Break her nose or teeth? It seems exactly like slut shaming and not like any way to truly remove her beauty. Will a man who found her attractive before her walk of shame find her less so now? Maybe, but only b/c she is very much politically tainted now. She looks the same as she did before. As Jaime will probably tell her, it's much worse to have your source of strength permanently damaged than to have to endure a temporary humiliation. You could even forget it in time.

Cersei sees her (female) body as a cage, I think. But the truth is, it could also be a mask that could allow her to horde power other people don't see. I really hope she learns how to use it better, and and play to her strengths (that she's female, that she's a mother) instead of her weaknesses (that she's not a man).

I think she sees her gender role as a cage but very much likes her body, or did until now. Maybe that will be the worst legacy, her revision of her own self-image as the fairest of them all. No more, but that realization would have come to her in time anyway, as it comes to all of us.

The issue with some of these women -- especially Sansa, Asha and Brienne, in my opinion -- is that their sexuality still *exists* so since they don't know how to use it, other people who *do* (such as Littlefinger, in Sansa's case) use it *against* them.

This is true of any seeming advantage: if you don't know how to use it, someone else will.

Same thing for Cersei, for most of her life -- her sexuality was great!...For Tywin. He got hold of a lot of power using her as a sexual object.

Honestly, though, if she were as ugly as sin, he still would have gotten a good marriage for her, being a Lannister and all. That's probably what irks her the most, the way her body was commoditized without her say, and I think she rebelled against it by being with Jaime. In a way, it was like not sharing herself at all.

Brienne is also an interesting case, imo, because it's obvious that her biggest strength is her literal physical strength -- yet people still *want* it to be her sexuality, so people are always talking about how she's a maiden and about what she's wearing, etc.

Her ugliness is made much of, but the reason is that the men of Westeros don't know how to talk about a woman any other way. We see this time and time again, when the great beauties of Westeros are discussed. What else did Ashara Dayne have to offer but laughing purple eyes? Would Rhaegar have run off with Lyanna if Elia of Dorne hadn't been plain? How much of the realm's woes transpired b/c Littlefinger is fixated on Tully beauty? It seems rare that a man idolizes a woman for her character (Jaime/Brienne is the only one that springs to mind).

It seems as though any time a woman tries to use sex as a method of grabbing power, she's labeled a whore...but I'm not sure what "whore" means if basically every woman is a whore, let alone if you consider how many of the men are mercenaries, who use their martial power in the same way "whores" use their sexual power. It seems as though the best thing a woman can be is desirable and the best thing a man can be is strong -- so are the best women "whores" and the best men "sellswords"? And where does someone like Littlefinger fall? Well, another long digression.

I don't mind your digressions at all. I think sellswords are not highly respected in Westeros; men who do it for honor are like women who do it with their husbands, so Bronn is like the hooker with the heart of gold: he makes good somehow despite being a "whore." Ironically, he gets where he is due to the largesse of Tyrion Lannister, who is also fond of whores, and Tywin Lannister, who abuses them. This is getting really circular.

Depends on who you are, I guess. Worse for a strong man to be maimed, worse for a beautiful woman to be humiliated, maybe. THOUGH. It seems as though a maiming is a constant mark of humiliation.

Indeed. But a woman could be maimed to be less beautiful. The shaming seems to have a different purpose, as it does not actually do harm to the beauty in a visible way. It seems designed to ruin her self-esteem, to take away her will to power. In that way, if it worked, it would be just as bad. It just seems chancier to try to use psychological torture to break someone, esp when you don't know how they're going to break. I hope Ramsay Bolton learns that to his great dismay in the near future.

Tyrion's nose? It's not like he was good-looking before. What is that symbolic of? How has that crippled him? How was the end of his nose a new chapter of his life? All I can think is "cut off your nose to spite your face" and think that his play at heroism ended up with him turning into a villain. But who. even. knows. :)

Tyrion is dying by a thousand cuts. He is falling deeper into self-loathing. It seems like these books are all about people losing their identity piece by piece (and often their body parts), and it's kind of horrible to watch.

Why not use that? Why not use her Walk of Shame? If she doesn't go through a big jailhouse conversion and start talking about how she's Mother of the realm, I don't know what the hell she's going to do.

Me neither. Flame out in a really crazy, pathetic way, likely.

So I think what she'll probably do is go around being super pious and do another kind of "fuck him into submission" thing with whatever strong men she can, only this version will rely on piety instead of actual sex. What I would do is make a big thing about how I'm a martyr of the Faith and talk about how the Walk of Shame (which everyone saw, and so everyone feels a part of) was some kind of mythological event that opened me up to the holy spirit and now I'm just a conduit for the Mother and she's ruling through my voice. Why not? It's a way of becoming holier than the High Septon, which would help undermine some of his power, too.

Too bad she doesn't have you advising her, b/c that would actually probably work, but I doubt she's savvy enough or sane enough to do something this nuanced and calculating. I see a major power grab behind some strong man (Robert STRONG? Argh-- he is obviously just a golem for her to wield just as Bran uses Hodor. They lack the strong body to do what they want, so they have to use someone else's, and it's an abomination). It's destined to fail.

I was actually happy to see the Walk of Shame happen (though it was painful to see Cersei brought so low -- poor thing has so much pride, and I just felt terrible for her when she was limping towards the gates leaving a trail of blood behind her).

It wasn't painful for me to see her brought low. What was painful was knowing that it just made her crazier, more bitter, more driven for revenge, and that would probably lead to Tommen's death.

By the way -- so Tywin's father's whore was made to do a Walk after his death, and now after Tywin's death, his daughter is made to do a Walk. So all of Cersei's power came from *Tywin* just like her grandfather's whore's power all came from her grandfather? That's a shame. I wish so much that Tywin had had his own POV chapters, that man is just a mystery wrapped in an enigma wrapped in a fucking crossword puzzle written in code.

The Lannister family definitely have a lot of sex-based anger, and it seems like Tywin is the source of it. A POV from him would have been pretty intersting.

She loses her father, her body is suddenly an object for public ogling, and she "flowers"...that makes it sound like she's making some sort of passage to womanhood, to me -- that's a pretty exact re-do of puberty.

It reminded me of the shower scene in Carrie.

[BMB]

I'm genuinely hoping that Cersei's revenge on The Faith is furious and brutal.

Me too.

[rue721]

Then why not maim her? Scar her face? Break her nose or teeth? It seems exactly like slut shaming and not like any way to truly remove her beauty.

I don't think that her beauty was exactly the source of her power -- more like her image, as a highborn "ideal" woman. Now she's not ideal anymore, though, she's just a "whore" who everyone has seen.

In terms of why they humiliated her instead of maiming her: I think the reason they made her do the walk and didn't harm her themselves is the same reason they made her beg for punishment (through the sleep-deprivation, etc) is the same reason Ramsey made Reek beg to have his flayed parts cut off -- part of the punishment/shame is making it seem like you did it to yourself. It's a way of disgracing her so that she can't be pitied but only despised.

As Jaime will probably tell her, it's much worse to have your source of strength permanently damaged than to have to endure a temporary humiliation.

I think that the High Septon -- and maybe even Cersei -- does see her source of strength as permanently damaged -- if her only power is in her ability to make men desire her, then the mark of being "had" by everybody (at least visually) and being shown to be nothing like a "maid" (in age, in that she has stretch marks, etc) does damage her "power" permanently.

I think in reality, though, that's not the only strength that female sexuality has in it (I don't even think that *is* a strength of female sexuality, since being a "maid" carries the implication that your power is still up for grabs by a man and that's what's desirable about it in the first place), so I think the High Septon miscalculated. Cersei could turn it into a strength that everyone feels "one" with her body in a way now, since they've seen it's a human body like everyone else's and bears the signs of motherhood and age, that they witnessed her degradation. She's not "above" the people now, but the High Septon is -- she could use that to forge a kind of connection with them and work her way around the High Septon, if she plays her cards right, imo.

Cersei has a very black and white view in terms of strength/weakness (strength = good, weakness = bad), so I don't really think she'll play things that way, though. She just looks at the most powerful person in the room and tries to find a way to either 1. emulate them 2. make them champion/love her 3. fuck them so she feels like she's conquered them somehow. Sadly! The fact that Cersei has bought into every misogynistic line her culture has fed her is why I kind of love her, and find it hard not to root for her to a point.

I think she sees her gender role as a cage but very much likes her body, or did until now. Maybe that will be the worst legacy, her revision of her own self-image as the fairest of them all.

I think that she told herself that even if she were cursed with a female body, at least she had the *best possible* female body. She's always trying to mentally separate herself from other women, and I think that's one way she does it. I could bring in her dead mother/female body = weakness/fear of Tyrion & ugliness there, but I think you probably already see where I'd be going with that. :P

I do think that one thing to consider about her intense fear of Tyrion is actually how it links with her intense need to believe herself beautiful -- I think any sign of ugliness is a reminder of him, and that scares her because he's like this beast that kills everyone she loves right under her nose (her mother, her father, her son, sends away her daughter, etc). I would think ugliness = (insidious) danger, to her. That's why when she feels ugliest (such as post-Walk), he seems to be on her mind more than ever, and more dangerous than ever, imo.

That's probably what irks her the most, the way her body was commoditized without her say, and I think she rebelled against it by being with Jaime. In a way, it was like not sharing herself at all.

That's really insightful, and I 100% agree.

I think she also liked having sex with Jaime because it was as close as she could get to becoming Jaime, who is like her avatar of who she would be if only she weren't cursed with being female. That's also why she broke with him so much when he lost a hand and didn't care about Joffrey's death, imo -- those were weaknesses, she felt, and she doesn't fuck him in order to feel weak. I think Tyrion does the same thing with Jaime -- in terms of thinking of him as an ideal version of himself -- but that has also been thoroughly screwed up by the Tysha revelation (in which, just like with Cersei, Jaime comes out looking "less than" than Tyrion, and therefore totally unsuitable as a "mirror" of Tyrion's ideal self).

The weird part, to me, is that Jaime himself *loved* Cersei, and on my current SoS re-read I notice he's constantly asking himself what Tyrion would do. I don't know what's going on there, to be honest.

It seems rare that a man idolizes a woman for her character (Jaime/Brienne is the only one that springs to mind).

To be fair, I don't know that the women are idolizing the men for their character, either. Sansa half-tries, but imo she's just as caught up in ideas about male physical power as any of the male characters are caught up in ideas about female beauty. To be honest, I don't know how much "character" really matters in this world anyway. I'm not saying the characters are superficial really, just that their values aren't necessarily all that much like our values -- to them, maybe a man being strong is noble in a way that a man being good-hearted is noble to us now. Maybe a weak man is incapable of being a "good" man to them in the way that a cruel man is incapable of being a "good" man to us now. And I guess that would mean that an ugly woman is incapable of being a "good" woman to them?

I think sellswords are not highly respected in Westeros; men who do it for honor are like women who do it with their husbands, so Bronn is like the hooker with the heart of gold: he makes good somehow despite being a "whore." Ironically, he gets where he is due to the largesse of Tyrion Lannister, who is also fond of whores, and Tywin Lannister, who abuses them. This is getting really circular.

LOL! I totally agree with your idea that men who fight for honor are like women who have sex with their husbands (they're both "faithful"), and that that's the counterpoint to men and women who fight/have sex for money. Though: is honor just another version of money? What's the difference between honor and money? Do they feed off each other -- the more money you have the more honor you have? Cersei must have been Tywin's heir, though, so she has basically unlimited money at this point -- yet she has less honor than ever...so maybe they work opposite each other? Or maybe they have no connection at all, which could definitely be the case...except that without money, how can one have honor?

Also, I don't know what buying/selling meant to Tywin -- was it a way of being honest, upstanding? It made him feel powerful to buy others, but he wouldn't sell himself -- even as far as getting married again. If so, was being in the position of being a seller but not sold = honorable to Tywin? Did he have a notion of honor separate from money? (This reminds me of Tyrion inexplicably trying to drive up his own price at the slave auction -- and where does slavery fit into the idea of buying and selling, anyway!).

If not, then must Tywin have *always* thought Cersei was a kind of whore, a commodity that has no worth/honor until it's sold? An asset, whose worth could only be tapped by way of making her a whore by way of a sale? He sold her into marriage -- I think she even uses the word "sold" (in CoK, talking about Myracella) and Tywin was obviously trying to exploit her marriage potential as well as he could for his own personal gain. The further process of "making" her into a whore by way of the Walk of Shame (and there was even another prostitute showing off her goods during the walk, and connecting herself with Cersei), seems to echo Tywin's efforts with Tysha, too, in a way (boiling everything down into a transaction between a whore and her buyer, in order to make it somehow more "respectable" -- I mean, the fact that Tywin thought it was more respectable for Tyrion to be part of a whore's gang-rape than married to a crofter's daughter...I don't really get it?). But Tysha's story ends as soon as she's declared a whore, so it's hard to know what that story could mean about Cersei's future. Dammit Tywin, where DO whores go? :P Well, I hope you meant it when you said you didn't mind my digressions, Tyroshi :P

I see a major power grab behind some strong man (Robert STRONG? Argh-- he is obviously just a golem for her to wield just as Bran uses Hodor. They lack the strong body to do what they want, so they have to use someone else's, and it's an abomination). It's destined to fail.

Sigh. Siiiiiigh.

I guess it's some kind of personality thing. But you know how when Tyrion was signing all those papers for the Second Brothers, he was like: got to make him feel like he's fucking me proper right now, since that's half of what he bought? Why doesn't Cersei understand that concept?

Jeez, I wish that Cersei would just make a show of being so fervently religious that it would put the High Septon to shame and align her with the people (who could then all say, YES, I SAW THE WALK AND I SAW A MIRACLE HAPPEN THEN! I SAW HER TRANSFORM INTO THE MOTHER!) And start a whole industry of religious pilgrimage into KL...but I digress.

Though can you imagine if that were an SL in new books -- Cersei pretends to be a huge religious zealot to undermine the High Septon and win back the people to her and Tommen's cause, and in doing so, she brings money back into KL and the crown by way of pilgrims coming to re-trace her "miraculous" walk and buy songs about her "Motherhood" and pray using little "holy" trinkets the people of KL now have a cottage industry producing? KL could become the Mecca for people praying to the Mother. LOL. Why would you throw your bets the random Golem's way (a Golem not even made/controlled by you!) when you have that kind of power at your fingertips? :P. Half-joking, of course. The half that isn't is the half that truly wants Cersei to become some sort of revival leader/businesswoman :P.

[nara]

Trying to fuck men into submission has worked WHEN? I think maybe the only time it has ever worked is when Tywin did it by making Tyrion fuck himself into submission (to Tywin) via raping Tysha. And even that managed to come back and bite Tywin in the ass.

Actually, I think it worked really well with Jaime for the majority of their lives. She learned when they were 15 that she could get him to give up Casterly Rock and join the Kingsguard by having sex with him.

I think she also liked having sex with Jaime because it was as close as she could get to becoming Jaime, who is like her avatar of who she would be if only she weren't cursed with being female. That's also why she broke with him so much when he lost a hand and didn't care about Joffrey's death, imo -- those were weaknesses, she felt, and she doesn't fuck him in order to feel weak. I think Tyrion does the same thing with Jaime -- in terms of thinking of him as an ideal version of himself -- but that has also been thoroughly screwed up by the Tysha revelation (in which, just like with Cersei, Jaime comes out looking "less than" than Tyrion, and therefore totally unsuitable as a "mirror" of Tyrion's ideal self). The weird part, to me, is that Jaime himself *loved* Cersei, and on my current SoS re-read I notice he's constantly asking himself what Tyrion would do.

Perhaps I'm being too simplistic, but I thought the reason that she stopped sleeping with Jaime was 1) he was starting to want to go public with their relationship and she was afraid of the results --Tommen would lose the crown, and the whole family their lives, and 2) she realizes that she can't control Jaime anymore and that changes their relationship so much that she's at a loss as to how to deal.

She knows that Jaime has lost a hand before they have sex in the sept, so I don't think that made her think of him as weaker and less appealing. She actually still has an idealistic view of him as a fearless, unstoppable knight, who can help avenge her son, despite the fact that he is missing his sword hand, so I don't think missing hand=weakness in her mind.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

I don't think that her beauty was exactly the source of her power -- more like her image, as a highborn "ideal" woman. Now she's not ideal anymore, though, she's just a "whore" who everyone has seen.

Yes, the "penetrating gaze"-- everyone has given her the eyefuck, so now she is no longer of any value. However, they can't take away the fact that she's Tommen's mother, and they didn't even try to keep her from him permanently, which we both seem to think will be the source of her power going forward. In fact, it might be just the attitude adjustment she needs. She's not the Maiden anymore, whose strength is in her hotness and the allure of untasted sexuality. She's the Mother, who is not expected to be beautiful and pure, but who is just as powerful. If she's smart, she'll embrace that.

I think the High Septon miscalculated. Cersei could turn it into a strength that everyone feels "one" with her body in a way now, since they've seen it's a human body like everyone else's and bears the signs of motherhood and age, that they witnessed her degradation. She's not "above" the people now, but the High Septon is -- she could use that to forge a kind of connection with them and work her way around the High Septon, if she plays her cards right, imo.

The problem is, playing to the love of the people, being an everywoman, has never been in her wheelhouse, and she'd have to fake her ass off to do it successfully without the help of the religious establishment. I could easily see it turning into another mockable moment, unless she can somehow convince the High Septon that she's more valuable as a convert than a shamed woman... and then she'd be relying on a man again.

Cersei has a very black and white view in terms of strength/weakness (strength = good, weakness = bad), so I don't really think she'll play things that way, though.... The fact that Cersei has bought into every misogynistic line her culture has fed her is why I kind of love her, and find it hard not to root for her to a point.

Her major problem is that she has a very black and white way of identifying power. She fails to see Tyrion's and scorns him to her own dismay later, for instance. And she's never been going at parlaying weakness into strength, which is what Jaime had to do when he lost his hand. I'm rereading ACoK right now, and I just can't manage to root for her. She is such an awful person.

I think she also liked having sex with Jaime because it was as close as she could get to becoming Jaime, who is like her avatar of who she would be if only she weren't cursed with being female....I think Tyrion does the same thing with Jaime -- in terms of thinking of him as an ideal version of himself -- but that has also been thoroughly screwed up by the Tysha revelation (in which, just like with Cersei, Jaime comes out looking "less than" than Tyrion, and therefore totally unsuitable as a "mirror" of Tyrion's ideal self).

Ah, poor Jaime, who is supposed to everyone's perfect golden reflection when he's just a foolish, arrogant man blessed with a great body and beautiful face. Now Jaime I can sort of love and root for because he takes his defeat and degradation and learns something about being a decent human being. One would wish Cersei could do something similar, but it seems like she can't. I don't know how he's going to make up with Tyrion. That one is beyond me. Cersei he seems to be through with. I could see himself confessing to their treason except that it would doomed his children. My theory is that he will wind up being the one who has to fight Robert Strong for her trial, and that will truly rip Cersei in two, in a way that this Walk of Shame never could.

To be fair, I don't know that the women are idolizing the men for their character, either. ...Maybe a weak man is incapable of being a "good" man to them in the way that a cruel man is incapable of being a "good" man to us now. And I guess that would mean that an ugly woman is incapable of being a "good" woman to them?

The problem seems to be that so often, being noble = being foolish in this world, not recognizing the deceitful games that others are playing, and all the men who put honor above survival or self-aggrandizement wind up dead. This is why the Martinverse feels so cruel, b/c everyone who has tried to be good has been punished for it, and these wrongs cry out to be righted, but may not be. Many people still love Ned Stark in the North, and even Cersei regrets his death. Barristan Selmy was a great hero, and the mourning for Rhaegar continues. So I don't know... I don't think it's that people don't value character, it's that times being what they are, character isn't enough if you're not also terribly clever and strong. And who in these books is honorable, clever, AND strong? I can't think of anyone. Maybe Barristan Selmy, but he gave up kith and kin in service and is now alone.

is honor just another version of money? What's the difference between honor and money? Do they feed off each other -- the more money you have the more honor you have?

Definitely not. Honor has no price, and once it's lost, it's hard to earn it back. Gold comes and gold goes. You can even borrow it from the banker of Braavos, but not honor. And there is a sore lack of it in Westeros these days. You can buy "nobility," but not honor.

If not, then must Tywin have *always* thought Cersei was a kind of whore, a commodity that has no worth/honor until it's sold? An asset, whose worth could only be tapped by way of making her a whore by way of a sale?

This is an argument that has been made in feminist theory for decades, that marriage is a form of prostitution. It goes a bit far IMO, as many arranged marriages turn out just fine (Ned/Catelyn). I think it only makes you a whore if you feel like a whore when it's happening, if that makes any sense.

Jeez, I wish that Cersei would just make a show of being so fervently religious that it would put the High Septon to shame and align her with the people (who could then all say, YES, I SAW THE WALK AND I SAW A MIRACLE HAPPEN THEN! I SAW HER TRANSFORM INTO THE MOTHER!) And start a whole industry of religious pilgrimage into KL...but I digress.

It would be kind of repellantly hilarious to watch.

KL could become the Mecca for people praying to the Mother. LOL. Why would you throw your bets the random Golem's way (a Golem not even made/controlled by you!) when you have that kind of power at your fingertips? :P. Half-joking, of course. The half that isn't is the half that truly wants Cersei to become some sort of revival leader/businesswoman :P.

You have to be the sort of person who can subvert her personal identity for the sake of a complex subterfuge. Cersei has never been the kind of person who would do something to subvert her identity OR something complex. She will rage directly against the source of her torment and lose. I really hope she has to watch Jaime fight Robert Strong. That would be the perfect resolution to her machinations IMO, esp. if his dying words reveal that they committed treason together... and that would be the end of poor Tommen.

[rue721]

Perhaps I'm being too simplistic, but I thought the reason that she stopped sleeping with Jaime was 1) he was starting to want to go public with their relationship and she was afraid of the results --Tommen would lose the crown, and the whole family their lives, and 2) she realizes that she can't control Jaime anymore and that changes their relationship so much that she's at a loss as to how to deal.

LOL. Why, yes, I guess there *could* be a perfectly sensible and pragmatic explanation. :P

Next, I'll string together some half-assed theory about how having sex with Jaime in the Sept while dripping blood was a metaphor for Cersei trying to bring her murdered son back to life. Don't worry, there's always some icky yet weirdly abstract idea up my sleeve :P.

Though that does make me think of the way Cersei looked at her shorn-off hair and the way it glowed golden in the sunlight, and about the way the flickering candles in the Sept made Joff's armor also glow golden. Cersei's hair = armor, I guess. But what does it mean that it glows brighter than the (dead?) thing it's meant to protect?

Her major problem is that she has a very black and white way of identifying power. She fails to see Tyrion's and scorns him to her own dismay later, for instance. And she's never been going at parlaying weakness into strength, which is what Jaime had to do when he lost his hand. I'm rereading ACoK right now, and I just can't manage to root for her. She is such an awful person.

Ah, poor Jaime, who is supposed to everyone's perfect golden reflection when he's just a foolish, arrogant man blessed with a great body and beautiful face. Now Jaime I can sort of love and root for because he takes his defeat and degradation and learns something about being a decent human being.

Jaime has protected himself in a way that Tyrion and Cersei didn't/couldn't protect themselves -- he withdraws from his family via entering the "pure white" world of the Kingsguard, he has no ability/need to position himself politically or think about money because he's found a life-long niche, and he doesn't have sex with anyone but "himself" (Cersei) for years and years and years so there's no real chance of him becoming entangled with love or romantic attachments. He even keeps himself "untouched" from any real emotional attachment to his own children. In my opinion, Jaime is a "purer" soul than his brother or sister because he's made a little shell for that soul and hidden it away inside, where it's been kept relatively untouched -- not because there's something intrinsically "better" about his soul.

I understand why he'd want to keep himself safe from everything -- he's an "ideal" that everyone would otherwise want a piece of. But he's been so successful at not letting things touch him that I find him hard to connect with, too. Cersei and Jaime are very different now, but I don't think that's necessarily because of innate differences so much as differences in the circumstances of their lives. It seems to me that Cersei's the "dirty" part of Jaime and Jaime is the "clean" part of Cersei. Jaime's goodness gives Cersei the freedom to be bad, imo, and Cersei's badness is what gives Jaime the freedom to be good.

But I still need to re-read FfC, because honestly I don't remember it at all, so I can't give too many specifics :P.

being noble = being foolish in this world, not recognizing the deceitful games that others are playing, and all the men who put honor above survival or self-aggrandizement wind up dead. This is why the Martinverse feels so cruel, b/c everyone who has tried to be good has been punished for it, and these wrongs cry out to be righted, but may not be.

I see it differently -- I think that Martin does a good job of showing the way the world degrades a person.*** If a person can't be degraded, he dies. If a person can be degraded, he lives...in a degraded state. The ultimate image of the way the world makes a person a monster/piece of shit, to me, would be Tywin dying in a puddle/pool of shit with his son's arrow in his belly and a whore's corpse in his bed...after striving his whole life to be stronger than his (dead) father, that's what he gets for his "strength."

I don't think the point is that the bad guy wins, or you've got to be a bad guy to win. The more cynical and hardened people become, the unhappier and more alienated they become, too. I think the point is: is surviving winning? Is it better to die with idealism or to live long enough to become a monster?

Cersei burns very hot and has a lot of emotion, so it was easy for the world to get to her and for her to become corrupted, imo. I don't think that's necessarily *worse* though, then Jaime going into a state of emotional living death in order to not become so corrupted, or out of fear of corruption.

Honor has no price, and once it's lost, it's hard to earn it back. Gold comes and gold goes. You can even borrow it from the banker of Braavos, but not honor. And there is a sore lack of it in Westeros these days. You can buy "nobility," but not honor.

Don't you have to buy honor with blood? As in, pay for it with your life, and/or the lives of those who love you?

And what's the difference, do you think, between honor and respect? Or what's the connection between them, anyway? How does a person earn honor? Or do you start out with X amount of honor and all you can hope for is that it won't be taken away?

I think it only makes you a whore if you feel like a whore when it's happening, if that makes any sense.

Is the difference in terms of how you feel inside, or how people treat you? I think the difference between a whore and someone who isn't a whore is in how other people treat you, not how you feel. The best example is probably Tysha, who could do basically the same thing as a "non-whore" and as a "whore" but "becomes" a whore because of how *others* treat/label her. Cersei looks the same, *is* fundamentally the same, before and after her walk -- but she's not seen the same way. Before she was a respected woman and now she's a whore.

That's why I brought up the idea of Tywin always thinking of Cersei as a whore...I think he's interesting in that he honestly doesn't seem to give a shit what Cersei does as long as he can sell her as somebody's wife. And I definitely think that he thought of marriage as a buy/sell transaction, especially since he insisted on turning Tyrion's marriage to Tysha into a buy/sell transaction, too. Like he was trying to say, "Even the "purest" marriage -- a love-match -- is really just whoring, in the end." But the thing that throws me for a loop in terms of that is how then he becomes so insistent that Tyrion not be with whores. Why? Jaime and Cersei are doing god knows, and Tywin himself is sleeping with the same whore Tyrion wanted to. I feel like Tywin and Tyrion are opposite sides of a coin in that Tywin wants to make even love-based relationships (like with his children, and their marriages) into money-based relationships, and meanwhile Tyrion wants to make even money-based relationships (like with whores, or his marriage to Sansa) into love-based relationships. I don't know how Cersei falls into that, since she seems completely uninterested in either.

You have to be the sort of person who can subvert her personal identity for the sake of a complex subterfuge. Cersei has never been the kind of person who would do something to subvert her identity OR something complex. She will rage directly against the source of her torment and lose.

I agree, Cersei will just try to have some big strong guy fight for her, and so sad for her if he ends up fighting other big strong guys she also associates with herself, because then who can she root for? That's sort of like watching herself fight herself to the death! = Torment!

Cersei is so unbearably rigid.

Does she have any understanding of other people's pain? She really seems to only think in terms of physical pain, and her threats are in kind -- ripping out people's tongues, killing them, etc. Maybe she's just so lacking in empathy that she wouldn't feel any triumph or joy at making her enemy feel weak, she can only feel the sense of satisfaction/safety/security at seeing her enemy vanquished (ie, dead).

Maybe that's why she doesn't make the same kind of sick, fiery statements about Tyrion as he does her -- she doesn't have enough empathy to even glory in the idea of making him feel pain like she felt pain, she only wants the feeling of safety that she thinks will come with his death.

***please, if possible, listen to "Hotel California" while you read this answer. :P

[THE LIL WARRIOR ARRY]

I'm sorry, but I can't feel bad for Cersei. Even when I was tempted to in this chapter, I'd just have to remind myself things like Lady's death, little Barra and mother killed, and Qyburn's experiments, etc. And I just want Cersei to suffer as much as possible. And given how proud she is, the worst punishment for her is humiliation, and she got it in spades. I'm glad.

Please don't tell me she didn't deserve it, she deserve it and more.