[ADwD Spoilers] Cersei

[Lady Caek]

I think this is a drastic oversimplification of the potential for this discussion. Fiction (among many other art forms) gives us a platform to discuss the ethical implications of gender-based hatred, of sexual violence, of vengeance and justice. To dismiss it because "it's just a book" or because "it's fiction" is to shut down any possibility of this discussion. If you don't want to take part in the discussion, then don't take part.

Yes, I am on a high horse today.

It is not drastic in any way shape or form. My reply is made out of people getting extremely upset over something that is indeed a work of fiction. I am in no way saying that there can not be a discussion on how they think it is wrong, but when people are actually getting overly upset over something like this I have to wonder. Discussing and getting up in arms over a fictional issue are two totally different things. It would be like someone protesting and making petitions in real life over the Red Wedding incident. It does not make sense.

If I did not want to take part in the discussion, I would not have said my opinion on the matter. I do not have to agree with other opinions, but I can have mine own and express it when it does relate to the topic at hand.

[Alexia]

It is not drastic in any way shape or form. My reply is made out of people getting extremely upset over something that is indeed a work of fiction. I am in no way saying that there can not be a discussion on how they think it is wrong, but when people are actually getting overly upset over something like this I have to wonder. Discussing and getting up in arms over a fictional issue are two totally different things. It would be like someone protesting and making petitions in real life over the Red Wedding incident. It does not make sense.

Actually, it is a compliment to the author that he was able to develop characters and a story that cause people to care. Art should be able to rouse strong emotion in its audience, else the artist has completely failed in his work. As unhappy and upset I am with this particular artistic decision, the fact that I care this much is a measure of GRRM's talent as an artist.

[BFG]

You know, I have to say that actually this whole book is really icky on how it deals with Cersei and sexual humiliation-for example, having Tyrion say he wants to rape and kill Cersei? That's something Tyrion has never expressed before-he's always wanted to hurt her, but not to rape her. But Tyrion, who is this character we're supposed to feel so much sympathy with, is able to say it, and it's not presented as a bad thing, it's presented as a "How great that Tyrion is so honest" thing.

Nope, I don't think Tyrion is meant to come across as all great and good in this book. I found Tyrion, despite being a 'liked' character in previous books headed towards unlikeable and disliked in this book, partly because of his changed thoughts (regarding Cersei among others) and his actions at Illyrios house.

I got the impression that we were supposed to feel at least pity for her; told from her POV it's hard not to, isn't it?

I hated Cersei, and I still do, but that was harsh...especially since all that she was guilty of for sure at this time was sleeping with 3 guys when Robert was already dead.

What on earth is that man going to want if she's found guilty of everything else? (not that that's likely with Qyburn's giant...)

I felt that we are supposed to feel that Cersei's punishment is far too much and thus get a better sense of this High Septon. He seems to lack that 'mercy' aspect of the faith.

:agree: That high septons creepy.

Completely and 100% agree. If we had seen the mutilation and humiliation of Theon as up close as we had that of Cersei, I can guarantee that there would be a huge outcry about it, and not one remotely involving things like "Yeah! Baby-killing motherfvcker finally got what was coming!"

But, I thought the chapter was triumphantly written, in that it reversed the complete and utter flatness of Cersei in aFfC. It was psychologically rich and interesting, and completely and utterly reversed my position on the character. I really, really hope that this was most of George's point in writing the chapter.

And I have never, before that moment, been sympathetic to Cersei. But you know what? Now I am. And I'm rooting for her all the way, though this is going to be a problem because I'm also rooting for the Starks.

"It is a wise woman who knows her place." Indeed.

Team Cersei all the way!

I kind of agree with you, but... Cerseis walk was her path to freedom, as uncomfortable as it got, there was an end that both we and Cersei knew about. Theon was tortured for months before we saw his escape to freedom. That's not to say I agree with the punnishment or even think it just, but I think Theons would have been even harder because at the beginning there's no hope.

I still don't like Cersei and I still don't like Theon, I pity both of them, but I still don't like them. I'll be cheering Cersei against the High Septon and probably against the others at KL, but Starks all the way for me.

I think this is a drastic oversimplification of the potential for this discussion. Fiction (among many other art forms) gives us a platform to discuss the ethical implications of gender-based hatred, of sexual violence, of vengeance and justice. To dismiss it because "it's just a book" or because "it's fiction" is to shut down any possibility of this discussion. If you don't want to take part in the discussion, then don't take part.

Yes, I am on a high horse today.

:agree: but this is a killer to type and formulate an opinion on. I felt so uncomfortable the entire time.

[Maia]

Isn't it incredibly stupid of the High Septon to accuse Cersei of incest and all this other stuff? Given that alternative to Tommen, who is a good little follower of the Faith is Stannis who is R'llorist and would not only take back all the privileges of the Faith that Cersei conceded, but persecute and try to destroy it?

Or was Varys a busy whisperer and made HS aware of the third alternative - Aegon?

[Lady Caek]

Actually, it is a compliment to the author that he was able to develop characters and a story that cause people to care. Art should be able to rouse strong emotion in its audience, else the artist has completely failed in his work. As unhappy and upset I am with this particular artistic decision, the fact that I care this much is a measure of GRRM's talent as an artist.

I can completely agree. There are times in this book that I read and it caused me to care very deeply about thing. However, my comment was towards the extremists points of view that just take it to that level. I do not agree with going to extremes over many things. That is the particular view I was debating with my reply. Extremity in any form is a dangerous thing and should be used with care and caution.

[Hielo y Fuego]

Count me in among those who feel Cersei had it easy.

While in our real world, this kind of punishment would be appalling to say the least, in the medieval-like ASoIaF universe this kind of punishment is perfectly understandable for someone accused of crimes of the flesh and especially, when compared to what the Spanish Inquisition did to people (women above all) even suspected of promiscuity/infidelity.

What I do find hard to believe is people actually feeling for characters such as Jaime, Theon and Cersei and claiming they don't deserve what they've gotten. Ned certainly did not deserve what he got. Robb and Cat certainly did not deserve what they got. These 3 have gotten it easy and I'm sure there's much more waiting in store for them.

Edit: on second thought, Theon hasn't had it easy at all. But based on Stannis stance on turncloaks and since the guy is of royal blood, I still think he has much more waiting in store for him, as well.

[Alexia]

I can completely agree. There are times in this book that I read and it caused me to care very deeply about thing. However, my comment was towards the extremists points of view that just take it to that level. I do not agree with going to extremes over many things. That is the particular view I was debating with my reply. Extremity in any form is a dangerous thing and should be used with care and caution.

Where do you see extremism? Have there been death threats made against GRRM? Petrol bombs thrown at his house? Calls to have him put on trial for obscenity? I haven't seen any extremism at all in this discussion, just two sides in lively disagreement about the literary value of a specific artistic decision GRRM made.

Come on, one side in disagreement with you about authorial intention or literary value is *not* extremism. Unless they start emailing you death threats for having an opposing opinion.

[fitz]

Isn't it incredibly stupid of the High Septon to accuse Cersei of incest and all this other stuff? Given that alternative to Tommen, who is a good little follower of the Faith is Stannis who is R'llorist and would not only take back all the privileges of the Faith that Cersei conceded, but persecute and try to destroy it?

Or was Varys a busy whisperer and made HS aware of the third alternative - Aegon?

I really don't think Varys would have told the High Septon about Aegon. More importantly though, I just don't think the High Septon is considering other King contenders as contenders. If he's as extremist as we're shown he is, it seems likely that he has his own idea of contender. I wouldn't be surprised if he's convinced the Faith should be ruling the kingdom, and he should be the King. He is building his own army.

I personally think that GRRM's motivation behind writing it the way he did was to create sympathy for Cersei. I think ever hated character that became a POV was done so to create controversy behind the idea of right and wrong being black and white. It was hard to read, but I really don't know why anybody's surprised that he gave us another gruesome chapter in the lives of these characters.

And I think a lot of people who see it as not enough punishment are forgetting that Cersei's punishment isn't over. She still has other things she'll be answering for in the next installment. I really don't think her day in court will ONLY consist of her champion fighting for her.

[rue721]

I love Cersei; she was one of my favorite characters in books 1-3. I always saw her as short-sighted and overly proud and impulsive, but I was really disappointed by some of her actions in AFFC. For example: consistent with earlier Cersei: sending Falyse's husband to kill Bronn. Inconsistent with earlier Cersei: turning Falyse over to Qyburn, effectively handing Stokeworth to Bronn.

So what I am hoping is that GRRM accomplished what he set out to have happen over the course of the gap which was to have Cersei make a hash of things in KL. And now, we get the real Cersei back with all her low cunning. I want to see her snatch up Tommen and make a run for the Rock. I want to see her publicly denounce Margaery, have the Sept of Baelor burnt to the ground with wildfire and the High Septon and those septas inside, to raise an army and march on KL. I want to see her rain some Lannister fire and blood down on the Tyrells, who are overdue for a good comeuppance.

Yes, exactly. I was so happy when she was playing "contrite" with Kevan after the Walk -- I knew that Cersei was more *Cersei* than ever at that point. That scene felt at least as triumphant to me as Theon's "remember your name" to Asha did.

Personally, I don't see why she's thought of as so different from Tyrion -- to me, they're very similar in their need for power, their frustration, their cunning, their capacity for ruthlessness....and their likability :). They're a couple of my favorite characters, by far.

Anyway, when Tyrion was saying he wanted to rape her, etc, I actually wasn't surprised -- to me, that's *always* how he is about Cersei. Yes, it was more vile than usual, but in DwD Tyrion was altogether more freaked-out and therefore more vile than usual. I don't think we were supposed to read that as "Cersei deserves to be raped! Even Tyrion thinks so!" I honestly don't understand the depths of Tyrion's fear and hatred of Cersei, but I don't think we, the readers, are supposed to just take up Tyrion's viewpoint as our own. Same with Cersei being punished with the Walk -- I don't think that by reading the Walk we're somehow condoning it, and I don't think that by having Cersei go through it GRRM was condoning it either. I don't think it was some kind sexual service to the fanboys, I think the (meta) reason she had to parade naked through the streets was because everyone (within-world) thinks that her greatest asset has always been her desirability...now that has been "taken" from her, what's left? I think this opens up interesting places for her story to go. (And no, I don't think that being naked actually takes away someone desirability, but it's clear from Kevan's reaction at the end that within-world, that's the goal).

I think the point within-world was to make her humble by stripping away her greatest asset, only she's got more to her than beauty, and now all of that will come to the fore -- same thing for Theon, in a way. He's been stripped of his smile, metaphorically and physically, but there's more to him than just a smile, and now that will becomes even more obvious. The the only other place where I think the comparison between Cersei and Theon makes sense is -- neither of them had a true choice in whether they were going to be degraded or not, but part of their punishment was being made to *beg for punishment* (as Cersei does to the High Septon), and therefore made to feel complicit in their punishment. That doesn't have anything to do with either of them "deserved" to be punished or not. I think where Cersei had it *mentally* easier than Theon is that she has a very strong sense of identity and he has a very weak one. So while Cersei could be degraded and yet remain perpetually Cersei, Theon felt for a while that he might be a creature made only for degradation. Physically, she had it *much* easier, and the reason the people who punished them had power over them in the first place were very different...so otherwise, I don't think it makes for much of a comparison.

Another comparison I would make, though, is between Cersei's (shameful) walk, meant to strip her of her greatest asset, and Tyrion playing Penny's show. That was also shameful, and also stripped him of his greatest asset -- he was playing a buffoon. I don't think it's a perfect comparison, but I think that's as much of a comparison as between the Walk and Theon -- they all sort of exist on a continuum of degradation, maybe?

Well, anyway -- personally, I think punishing Cersei only makes her stronger...If I, personally, wanted her out of the way, I'd actually throw her a bone or two. She's not great at seeing the big picture, so let her imagine that the little frivolous thing she's seeing actually *is* the big picture and let that occupy her. But I don't really know what everyone hoped to gain from her Walk, tbh.

Art should be able to rouse strong emotion in its audience, else the artist has completely failed in his work.

I think it's aggression/disrespect that should be tempered, not feelings.

ETA: not that I think this discussion is overly aggressive or disrespectful to anyone -- just talking in generalities.

[The Greatmatt]

There are a thousand and one horrible punishments that Cersei would justly deserve, but I question the choice to subject her to sexual humiliation. Is that the only "just" punishment he can conceive of for her?

If you're at all familiar with the Inquisition, you'll know that the Church was kind of obsessed with ways to sexually torture sexual deviants. A forced naked march like this is downright tame compared to what the real Church did.

So to me, sexual punishment for sexual misdeed is exactly the type of thinking I'd expect from a religious zealot.

Now of course, given that Cersei has other crimes to pay for, GRRM could have certainly gone a different route here. The walk only happened because Cersei concluded that admitting to the lesser crimes would help her get off on the other charges, which isn't necessarily an obvious thing to believe. Indeed, Cersei seemed to believe that a partial mea culpa would satisfy the High Septon and that would be the end of things - which is of course crazy (though we already knew she was crazy). On the other hand, when one of the witnesses against you is now a true believer of the faith, and he's backed up another person saying the same thing and then some, I can't imagine anyone buying she wasn't sleeping around. If there's a lesser charge you know you can't beat, it always makes sense to admit to it rather than let your lies on that front hurt you on the more serious charge.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

The attitude I take towards all the horror in these books is the same as William Munny's in Unforgiven: "Deserve's got nothing to do with it." These characters (I'm thinking of Cersei and Theon, though it could be true of Ned, Robert, Rhaegar, Renly, Robb, Jon maybe, etc) made choices, and those choices led them to their destruction. You can watch the decisions that Theon and Cersei make that lead to their torture and humiliation without thinking, "Was Martin being a misogynist? Is this fan service?" I understand the allure of meta-reading, but these things are ultimately unknowable. Martin's intentions, even if he came out and told you, don't necessarily change how you feel about reading these chapters. He could flat out say, "I meant those chapters to show you how strong Cersei is, how there is something admirable about her under all that nastiness," and you would still feel icky reading them. But personally, I find it counterproductive to rail at the outcomes of fictional works, unless they are poorly written on a technical level. Martin knows where this whole thing is going, and he wrote it how he did for a reason. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that his reasons were plot-driven and not personally prurient.

The reason that Cersei is tortured in this manner is that she has been trying to behave the way all the men around her behave, and this society is very resistant to that, and punishing of it. It's the society that is misogynistic, slut-shaming, and punishing of deviations from gender norms, not the author, and we can see through the text to the fact that this exercise, while greatly humiliating Cersei and degrading her, has not changed her essential nature. She is intact, for better or for worse. IMO, THAT is the point of that horrible chapter, to see just how recalcitrant she is, how no punishment she has received can strip her of her essential nature or will to power. Nothing short of death will. Personally, I can't stand her and I hope that she loses it all, and I think she will, but she is a very strong woman. I can't quite get to a feeling of pity for her because I never really cared about her a character, and always found her POVs tooth-grindingly irritating. This one made me wince, but I could see that it didn't have the desired effect on her, so I was more interested in seeing how it would affect her in the future.

I think Theon's chapters were much more pity-inducing, as I can't imagine a crime that would deserve that kind of punishment, whereas I can see where Cersei's was deemed fitting by Kevan and the Septon. They just don't know her like we know her, and I think they made a mistake in treating her as they did. It's just going to make her crazier and more determined to win.

[Ice Turtle]

I hope I´m not too much off topic but what I was thinking most reading that chapter was parallel with Dany. What she is doing with Daario almost openly is what Cersei is being punished for. (Even if she done worse crimes) I couldn't help wondering if Dany heard about this would she be able to see that, or will she be just happy that one of her enemies are being punished? Also if high septon heard about Danys sexual liberalism once she returns would he held back just because of her power or act openly as real fanatic dragons or not?

[littlespider]

It is not drastic in any way shape or form. My reply is made out of people getting extremely upset over something that is indeed a work of fiction. I am in no way saying that there can not be a discussion on how they think it is wrong, but when people are actually getting overly upset over something like this I have to wonder. Discussing and getting up in arms over a fictional issue are two totally different things. It would be like someone protesting and making petitions in real life over the Red Wedding incident. It does not make sense.

If I did not want to take part in the discussion, I would not have said my opinion on the matter. I do not have to agree with other opinions, but I can have mine own and express it when it does relate to the topic at hand.

Agreed with someone above that I do not see dangerous extremism or protests in the streets erupting on this thread in regards to the Cersei WOS.

My problem with yours and others' dismissive attitude toward intense discussion of this part of the book is that it's a form of reductionism: a discussion of the implications of this disturbing scene can reflect real world attitudes about gender, exploitation, and sexual violence in our culture. The ways that these contemporary, real world attitudes unfold and reveal themselves in popular fiction is testament to how pervasive they are in our present culture. To dismiss them as you have is to also dismiss and reduce the capacity that Martin's work, and other art, regardless of the medium, reflects some of these problems and values and can open them to discussion.

For example (as has been stated above), why is it so acceptable to objectify, scrutinize, and excoriate a sexualized, naked female body as an object of punishment in a public setting (Cersei), when it's not acceptable to even speak about the sexualized, naked male body as an object of punishment (Theon)? Not only is this an interesting question regarding Martin's use of gender in fiction, but it raises a lot of issues that are important to contemporary society's reception of and consumption of images of gender.

I frequently have serious problems with Martin's depiction of gender. Not serious enough to make me put down the books, and not serious enough to do a Judith Butler-esque excoriation of Martin's use of gender, but just serious enough to make me a little pissed, a little angry. And as has been mentioned on this thread, the rousing of these strong emotions, and the thought process that goes along with them, is part of the purpose and the effect of any decent work of writing.

[Hielo y Fuego]

I honestly don't understand the depths of Tyrion's fear and hatred of Cersei, but I don't think we, the readers, are supposed to just take up Tyrion's viewpoint as our own.

I would think Tyrion's feelings toward Cersei are very easy to understand. In a way, she stands for all he is not (beautiful, desirable, feared, respected, etc.) and on the other hand, it would seem clear that the dwarf wants his sister just as badly as Jaime himself. Yet, what has she ever done to him? Look down on him with disgust since the day he was born, as per Tyrion's own words in ACoK. So, it's only natural that he'd hold a grudge as deep for her as he did towards his father. His fear of her may come from the fact that Tyrion is perfectly aware of how dangerous his sister really is. He does know her well enough to know that Cersei is not just all beauty and no brains.

As for looking at Cersei from Tyrion's perspective, well at least not in my case, since I cannot easily identify with Tyrion's problems and mentality at all. But if that were the case with the majority, I would say that's only natural, given that Tyrion is presented to us as a much more likable/agreeable character.

I think the point within-world was to make her humble by stripping away her greatest asset, only she's got more to her than beauty, and now all of that will come to the fore...

I think the point in-universe was to make a woman accused of promiscuous, sinful behavior pay for said crime through the Walk of Shame simply because that is how such vane "sluts" are punished in-universe. Just as Tywin did with Lord Tytos' mistress. One would think that the Church...er...the Faith would have different kinds of sanctions already in place for different kind of offenses. Besides, I do believe the High Septon wants her out of the picture and not just humbled and repentant for some reason known to him alone so far.

I think where Cersei had it *mentally* easier than Theon is that she has a very strong sense of identity and he has a very weak one. So while Cersei could be degraded and yet remain perpetually Cersei, Theon felt for a while that he might be a creature made only for degradation. Physically, she had it *much* easier, and the reason the people who punished them had power over them in the first place were very different...so otherwise, I don't think it makes for much of a comparison.

Damn right it doesn't make for much of a comparison lol!

Cersei's "humiliation" lasted for a few minutes only. And most importantly, she didn't lose any body parts in the process. That poor Greyjoy SOB had to endure endless torture whilst locked away in a stinking dungeon for months! Of course it's gonna be psychological easier for Cersei to recover, regardless of each character's individual mental strength.

Another comparison I would make, though, is between Cersei's (shameful) walk, meant to strip her of her greatest asset, and Tyrion playing Penny's show. That was also shameful, and also stripped him of his greatest asset -- he was playing a buffoon. I don't think it's a perfect comparison, but I think that's as much of a comparison as between the Walk and Theon -- they all sort of exist on a continuum of degradation, maybe?

Well, I would contend that, since Tyrion was not putting up his mummer's act in front of the whole of King's Landing. He was performing for perfect strangers, which could make the blow easier to digest. And in fact, hadn't it been for that mummer's show, Tyrion would've probably not been in a position to be considered among that Jabba the Hutt-like Yunkish warlord's pets (I forget his name lol). Judging from his POV's, I understood that, while a painful blow to his pride, he accepted his situation out of necessity and ended up shrugging it off as temporary, which it was.

If anything, I think it would be his being a slave and seeing how the other half lives; something a Lannister from Casterly Rock would never get used to, was a far more grievous blow to him than anything else. The way he disposes of Nurse pretty much shows us how much Tyrion was loath of being treated as a slave. If there's one thing our dwarf friend has fought for all his life is respect (and being feared now, it would seem) which is the total opposite of what any slave can ever hope to receive, regardless of their station and functions.

Personally, I would compare Cersei's Walk and Jaime's time as Hoat's prisoner to Theon's horrifying journey at Ramsay's hands based on the fact that these 3 characters were guilty of some terrible deeds, some of which ended up putting them right in such terrible situations.

[rue721]

I would think Tyrion's feelings toward Cersei are very easy to understand. In a way, she stands for all he is not (beautiful, desirable, feared, respected, etc.) and on the other hand, it would seem clear that the dwarf wants his sister just as badly as Jaime himself. Yet, what has she ever done to him? Look down on him with disgust since the day he was born, as per Tyrion's own words in ACoK.

Not to derail conversation, just wanted to say that while I think that might be *part* of what's going on. But, in general, Tyrion *likes* beauty in a woman, and he usually gets angry at *himself* when the woman doesn't like him back. Also, his feelings toward Cersei are brutal in a way they aren't toward anyone else, including the people he's murdered. He wasn't trying to rape Shae. He thinks about *pleasing* his father, not finding every opportunity to make him "spit blood." What's even more shocking to me is that Cersei herself seems to despise Tyrion a certain amount, but she doesn't hate him in the way he hates her, seems to me. Now that she thinks he murdered her son and father, she's terrified of him. But in general, I think her advice to Sansa on Sansa's wedding day sums up her basic feelings toward him (SoS, 383):

"I understand your reluctance. Cry if you must. In your place, I would likely rip my hair out. He's a loathsome little imp, no doubt of it, but marry him you shall."

I think Cersei basically has just tried to adopt Tywin's view toward Tyrion, and that's as far as her hate goes. She sees him as a cross to bear, but she does bear it.

And on another train of thought w/r/t those two -- during Sansa's wedding, Sansa says about Joffrey (SoS, 388), "How can a monster dance so beautifully?" and it made me think about how Sansa was passed between Joffrey and Tyrion...which made me wonder about the connection of Cersei to both, since Cersei and Sansa sort of mirror each other in terms of their position at court, their beauty, etc. Well, it's only a very tiny nub of a theory right now, but maybe I'll think a bit more and come up with something eventually :).

Judging from his POV's, I understood that, while a painful blow to his pride, he accepted his situation out of necessity and ended up shrugging it off as temporary, which it was.

That's why I thought it was comparable to Cersei's Walk -- didn't she tell herself the same thing (that it was necessary and temporary, and not about her as a person) and wasn't that why she was able to shrug it off fairly well?

I think they got through their humiliations basically the same way, and managed to come out of it by clinging even more strongly than usual to their basic identities -- but I think it's interesting that Cersei keeps evoking her children (esp Tommen) when reminding herself that she's going to come out of it as much herself as ever, whereas Tyrion keeps talking about Cersei and his father, and ends up signing everything Lord of Casterly Rock -- but, unlike Cersei, who talks about how she has to keep going in order to *protect* Tommen, Tyrion has to keep going in order to completely destroy Cersei (and Tywin/Tywin's legacy/Casterly Rock).

I think Theon's a different case altogether, because he had to form an identity while being tortured by Ramsey, and try to find a totally new one in order to escape torture by Ramsey -- whereas for both Lannisters, it was more about the more personal parts of their identity being ripped away and just their name and family remaining.

I think the point in-universe was to make a woman accused of promiscuous, sinful behavior pay for said crime through the Walk of Shame simply because that is how such vane "sluts" are punished in-universe.

Actually, me, too -- thanks for saying it less euphemistically! :P

Tyrion was loath of being treated as a slave. If there's one thing our dwarf friend has fought for all his life is respect (and being feared now, it would seem) which is the total opposite of what any slave can ever hope to receive, regardless of their station and functions.

I disagree with this, though. I think Tyrion didn't *want* to be a slave, but I think he was very good at living as one, actually. Maybe even better than Penny, in that he knew how to drive up his price. He sure knew how to play the "slave" game and stay alive and healthy better than Jorah or Penny did (and I think they're two opposite extremes in terms of how one could react to slavery -- Jorah would wither and die as a slave, and Penny withers and is maybe going to die now as she becomes more and more "free").

I think Tyrion : Slave :: Cersei : Wife. She knows how to play that game very well, but she hates it, and in the end she'll betray her husband the way Tyrion betrayed his master.

I think both of them have a very interesting relationship to degradation and humiliation, actually.

And btw:

As for looking at Cersei from Tyrion's perspective, well at least not in my case, since I cannot easily identify with Tyrion's problems and mentality at all. But if that were the case with the majority, I would say that's only natural, given that Tyrion is presented to us as a much more likable/agreeable character.

In a way, I don't even think it's about likability/agreeableness -- we just get so much of Tyrion's POV, and his attitude toward Cersei is *so* unforgiving, that I think it's easy for that to taint a reader's (or at least THIS reader's :P) mental picture of her. And her POV doesn't help much to dispel that taint, since the woman has basically zero sense of humor, let alone a sense of humor about herself.

Anyway, it's not that someone can't hate Cersei if they want to (easy enough! lol), I just was trying to say that I think Tyrion saying he hates her is about *Tyrion* hating her, not about GRRM reaching out to the audience and saying: LOOK, CERSEI IS HATEFUL!

[Hielo y Fuego]

I think Cersei basically has just tried to adopt Tywin's view toward Tyrion, and that's as far as her hate goes. She sees him as a cross to bear, but she does bear it.

Agreed...at least till after Joff's assassination. At that point, Cersei harbors an extremely deep hatred for Tyrion, which is perfectly understandable, of course. What woman wouldn't feel such animosity against his son's murderer? Especially someone like Cersei.

From that point on, I believe all of Cersei's true feelings for Tyrion came afloat. I think she always despised him but was willing to hold back and bear him, just like you have wisely stated, till Tyrion would do something that would trigger Cersei's true feelings for him. Perhaps the fact that both are very similar, like you mention, is what leads to such reciprocal hatred? The fact that, to each other, they represent what they despise the most about their own selves...

That's why I thought it was comparable to Cersei's Walk -- didn't she tell herself the same thing (that it was necessary and temporary, and not about her as a person) and wasn't that why she was able to shrug it off fairly well?

Excellent observations all and I admit I might have overlooked the similarities between them in this sense. 100% agreed.

I think Theon's a different case altogether, because he had to form an identity while being tortured by Ramsey, and try to find a totally new one in order to escape torture by Ramsey -- whereas for both Lannisters, it was more about the more personal parts of their identity being ripped away and just their name and family remaining.

Again, agreed. That's why I recanted on my previous post when I said Theon is the same as the Lannister twins. Besides, I believe it safe to say that the inner topic at the core of Theon's conflict is that he has never belonged and thus, had to forge his own identity.

Actually, me, too -- thanks for saying it less euphemistically! :P

LOL! You're very welcome...though I liked your explanation too.

I disagree with this, though. I think Tyrion didn't *want* to be a slave, but I think he was very good at living as one, actually. Maybe even better than Penny, in that he knew how to drive up his price. He sure knew how to play the "slave" game and stay alive and healthy better than Jorah or Penny did (and I think they're two opposite extremes in terms of how one could react to slavery -- Jorah would wither and die as a slave, and Penny withers and is maybe going to die now as she becomes more and more "free").

Well, IIRC, Tyrion even observed that Penny had adjusted fairly well to the life of a slave not knowing any better (unlike him), but since I've only read ADwD once, I may be wrong and just confusing this with Penny insisting that they should go back when Tyrion wanted to escape from the camp to seek out Brown Ben Plumm.

That, in addition to him remembering how he had slipped the mushrooms in Nurse's broth, is what gave me the impression that life as a slave was eating him from the inside out.

I think Tyrion : Slave :: Cersei : Wife. She knows how to play that game very well, but she hates it, and in the end she'll betray her husband the way Tyrion betrayed his master.

Actually, I believe this goes back to Tyrion's relationship with his lord father, as he was always subject to doing Lord Tywin's bidding and never allowed to do what he wanted. His recollections about his father shattering his childhood dreams all but confirm this, IMO.But, this would only help to reinforce your views and again, I agree 100%

In a way, I don't even think it's about likability/agreeableness -- we just get so much of Tyrion's POV, and his attitude toward Cersei is *so* unforgiving, that I think it's easy for that to taint a reader's (or at least THIS reader's :P) mental picture of her. And her POV doesn't help much to dispel that taint, since the woman has basically zero sense of humor, let alone a sense of humor about herself.

Anyway, it's not that someone can't hate Cersei if they want to (easy enough! lol), I just was trying to say that I think Tyrion saying he hates her is about *Tyrion* hating her, not about GRRM reaching out to the audience and saying: LOOK, CERSEI IS HATEFUL!

Again, spot on. Couldn't have said it better myself. Absolutely true.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

A parallel could be drawn between Cersei's WOS and the "punishment" Joffrey dealt out to Sansa after Robb defeated Sir Stafford's army. Joffrey's ordered stripping and beating of Sansa was overt sexual sadism; the High Septon's ordered atonement was sexual sadism in the name of the gods (which pretty much described much of the Medieval Church's treatment of women). Cersei went out of her way to frighten and hurt Sansa, as well. I wonder if GRRM will treat us to Sansa's reaction to Cersei's humiliation, because she's the only POV character who could understand Cersei's experience, AND the only character entitled to gloat.

Did Cersei ever react to Joff's treatment of Sansa? I don't remember if there was any indication that she knew of those particular incidents.

[Lost Time]

A parallel could be drawn between Cersei's WOS and the "punishment" Joffrey dealt out to Sansa after Robb defeated Sir Stafford's army. Joffrey's ordered stripping and beating of Sansa was overt sexual sadism; the High Septon's ordered atonement was sexual sadism in the name of the gods (which pretty much described much of the Medieval Church's treatment of women). Cersei went out of her way to frighten and hurt Sansa, as well. I wonder if GRRM will treat us to Sansa's reaction to Cersei's humiliation, because she's the only POV character who could understand Cersei's experience, AND the only character entitled to gloat.

Did Cersei ever react to Joff's treatment of Sansa? I don't remember if there was any indication that she knew of those particular incidents.

I think Cersei was employing the "out of sight out of mind" technique. She genuinely believed they treated the girl right when she was thinking about Sansa helping in Joffrey's death.

As for Sansa's reaction, she's pure-hearted. I think she'd react to it how GRRM expected us all to react to the walk - uneasy. Don't think she's the gloating kind in this situation. Arya on the other hand... :lol:

[rue721]

I think Cersei was employing the "out of sight out of mind" technique. She genuinely believed they treated the girl right when she was thinking about Sansa helping in Joffrey's death.

I think Cersei adheres to the "might makes right" idea, so she saw it as perfectly within Joffrey's rights to beat and strip Sansa. IIrc, she's always been dismissive of Joffrey's mistreatment of others.

In general, I don't really know how Cersei felt about Joffrey's monstrousness. If anything, I would say she got a vicarious thrill from the way he bent others to his will. She does say in DwD that he was stubborn and Tommen's regent will have more power than Joffrey's ever could, but that's the most critical I remember her ever being of him.

As for Sansa's reaction, she's pure-hearted. I think she'd react to it how GRRM expected us all to react to the walk - uneasy. Don't think she's the gloating kind in this situation.

Sansa's a young girl, and vulnerable. I would say that if anything, a *queen* being made to take a walk of shame like that would scare her.If a queen can be treated that way, what hope does Sansa have for safety?

Also, that walk goes to show how powerful the High Septon has become -- the balance of power is perpetually shifting. That might be of interest to her, though I'm still re-reading everything, so I'm not up on the details enough to really know *how* specifically it might interest her.

I doubt Sansa's going to care much about how Cersei felt about it, and will think more of what the connotations are for herself. How could Sansa even care how Cersei felt about it? In Sansa's perspective, Cersei's emotions are probably pretty mystifying.

[Alexia]

I think Cersei was employing the "out of sight out of mind" technique. She genuinely believed they treated the girl right when she was thinking about Sansa helping in Joffrey's death.

I truly had difficulty believing what I was reading when the woman went on about how she treated her like her own children (really? Myrcella was stripped and beaten?) and clothed her, when the girl was getting tons of male attention because her dresses started gaping because she couldn't lace them shut over her breasts anymore. Astonishing.

As for Sansa's reaction, she's pure-hearted. I think she'd react to it how GRRM expected us all to react to the walk - uneasy. Don't think she's the gloating kind in this situation. Arya on the other hand... :lol:

I wonder...she may be uneasy (as she was when Joffrey died) but she may decide once again that she is weeping tears of joy. She was terrified of Cersei, and truly hates her. I think it'll show a lot about her future character when we see her response. Regardless, I think Sansa wants to see Cersei dead.