[ADwD Spoilers] Cersei

[BoldAsYouPlease]

It is possible to strip her of the thing she treasured most without writing it that damned extensively and fanservice-y. It crossed the boundary between plot device and gratuitous sadism fodder for me.

And, again, I feel the need to clarify that my problem with this has nothing to do with a) whether Cersei deserved it or B) whether you should feel bad for her. I have an issue with GRRM's persistent hatred for and sexual degradation of one target character. It's not just a matter of what happens to Cersei – it's how he portrays it happening to her. And I get the vibe that he wants people to get off on her sexual humiliation. Which is creepy as fuck.

I'm not a fan of the Cersei POV chapters in the last couple of books - she comes off as something of a cartoonish clown and her motivations and inner thoughts had my eyes rolling. But the vibe you get from this chapter is not the vibe I got. Shaming and humiliation are still a big part of religion and religious punishments in the real world today and were far more common and severe in the Middle Ages. And as for this "persistent hatred for and sexual degradation of one target character" thing, I really didn't see any degradation of Cersei in this chapter that would exceed anything that Theon undergoes in any one of his chapters.

I think all that can be said about Martin's motivations with certainty is that he wants to get to his readers with writing that stays with them and affects them, like every other fiction writer. In this case it seems he succeeded.

[Datepalm]

One of my favorite chapters in the series. Well, not favorite, but one of the most powerful and best written anyway. If anyone finds it titilatting or sexy or satisfying...sorry, nothing I can do for you.

Cercei has always been tangled up in issues of beauty, sexuality, female power and agency in a sexist society, etc. This is a logical, consistent and very powerful cap to that. What struck me most, of course, if that it works. Cercei herself expects not to give a fuck, and I agreed with her completely. She's the most beautiful woman in the kingdom, and she's utterly secure in her sexuality. Whatever, so they'll parade her naked through the city, big fucking deal, let them stare! And then she breaks down anyway, which of course she would. She's been trying to outrun or out fight or out fuck the dynamic that reduces her to a second class citizen all her life - its doesn't matter if she's braver than Jaime or if she's prettier than Jaime, she's still not allowed to be more than a face and a womb, and they force that down her throat.

Her own sarcastically misogynist confession to the Septon, Kevan's later thoughts that, well, she's done now - they've all seen that she's just a woman, the parallels with the mistress (which have been set up since book 1), even Asha's thoughts on the use of cunt and on Stannis...it all sets it up, and its freaking brilliant.

[eleusis]

This wasn't slut-shaming at all except in-series.

If you think that Cersei ~deserved~ what happened to her in Cersei II, you're as misogynist and gross as the High Septon. The chapter couldn't make the injustice and horror of it any more clear. That's the point that's being made here, and I think on some level it's a critique of the fandom and its often misogynist attitude toward Cersei ('I hope she gets raped!' etc) as opposed to other villains.

[Julian Rayne]

I felt sorry for her. I've hated the High Sparrow and his septas from AFfC and this incident makes me want to see 'Ser Robert Strong' unleashed on all of them.

They basically tortured a confession out of her (although she was guilty of course). I don't understand why she didn't recant her confession and insist on a trial for all the accusations against her in one go.

I know she's an evil piece of work but I hate fanatics more.

[Sega AM2]

I felt sorry for her. I've hated the High Sparrow and his septas from AFfC and this incident makes me want to see 'Ser Robert Strong' unleashed on all of them.

Cersei killed the previous High Septon because Lancel might have told him about her incest. Cersei had a wedding feast with 77 courses, a holy number, while the peasants starved. Cersei's son Joffrey defiled the Sept of Baelor by shedding Ned Stark's blood while she was acting Regent. She accuses Margaery of a crime that she herself is guilty of and then admits to being guilty of.

The High Sparrow might be insane...okay he is definitely certifiable, but Cersei certainly earns his attention.

I don't understand why she didn't recant her confession and insist on a trial for all the accusations against her.

This is a plot hole and a large one and it stood out immediately for me. What sense does it make for Cersei to subject herself to guaranteed punishment only to have a trial by combat later? She should have just said that the trial by combat would cover everything and be done with it. "I want to prove my innocence on all charges through trial by combat....SER ROBERT STRONG STEP FORTH!!!" or whatever.

Admitting her guilt to fornication was pointless when she knows that she'll have to stand trial for everything else. She's already got Qyburn working on her unbeatable champion. She's already preparing to prove her innocence of crimes she has committed through a trial by battle. She bets the accusations of murder and incest on Ser Robert Strong but won't double down on the accusation of fornication? What? It makes no sense. I know fanboys on this site will reach deep down and come up with delusional explanations for why Cersei admits her guilt on one crime only to stand trial for others.

The Hound's trial by combat is for around a billion murders. Tyrion's is both for regicide and for kinslaying. They didn't make them have an individual trial by combat for each crime. All crimes were lumped into one trial by combat.

Why didn't Cersei do this? Because GRRM wanted her paraded through the streets. No other logical explanation.

Qyburn should have said "stand trial for everything...Ser Robert Strong will not lose". It would have made perfect sense. Cersei would have been found innocent of everything. There is no question that this is a plot hole. Cersei walking through the street is a plot event that GRRM had to throw in to take her down a peg and snap her mind even more. But it was not necessary really as Kevan getting a crossbow bolt through the stomach will drive her bonkers anyways.

I know she's an evil piece of work but I hate fanatics more.

I'm genuinely hoping that Cersei's revenge on The Faith is furious and brutal.

[Logen Ninefingers]

But she had to confess on those crimes just to get contact with the outside world, without confessing she would have been left to rot. Robert Strong isn't a factor until after she's confessed, been given permission to speak to Kevan and persuaded him to involve Qyburn. Robert Strong isn't able to defend her from the more serious crimes until she's extracted herself from her initial predicament. As to why she doesn't just retract her confession after the event - probably because she doesn't want to be tossed back in her cell in the Great Sept.

It's also worth noting that her humbling seems to be Kevan's price for his aid, he wants her reduced to a state where she will accept just being packaged off to Casterly Rock.

[eleusis]

The Hound's trial by combat is for around a billion murders. Tyrion's is both for regicide and for kinslaying. They didn't make them have an individual trial by combat for each crime. All crimes were lumped into one trial by combat.

Why didn't Cersei do this? Because GRRM wanted her paraded through the streets. No other logical explanation.

Since nobody would speak to her at all or permit her visitors until she confessed, I felt she did something smart in confessing to those crimes so she could get some leverage instead of just being a slowly maddened prisoner. It makes sense to me. And then once she'd confessed to them, the High Sparrow wasn't going to let her get away with just the trial by combat -- which proves innocence, rather than exonerating you of crimes to which you've confessed.

[Ran]

Err. Robert Strong wasn't even an option as far as Cersei knew until she learned from Kevan that Arys Oakheart was dead.

And she learned that from Kevan because she was allowed visitors.

Which only happened because she had confessed her fornication.

Besides this, she makes it pretty clear how absolutely trapped and without means to save herself she was if she stayed in that cell until trial. She needed to get out of there to learn what was going on, to talk to Qyburn, to see what allies she had.

As to broken... thing is, she's back to being dangerous. That question about Dorna Swyft was not innocent.

ETA: Logen & eleusis beat me to it.

[eleusis]

As to broken... thing is, she's back to being dangerous. That question about Dorna Swyft was not innocent.

Exactly. I'm not sure why people are trusting Kevan's thoughts about Cersei when the general point of that epilogue was "Kevan Lannister is a moron" and when we were in Cersei's head not long before. She is not declawed in the slightest, just reeling from her disempowerment before the smallfolk.

[nategator]

Sorry I still have 0 sympathy for Cersei. Maybe if she had received the Theon treatment I might soften up but for now any misery sent her way is in my eyes richly deserved.

And for all the GRRM went too far, here's some more read meat. GRRM has had Tyrion repeatedly saying that he wants to rape and murder Cersei and other people's reaction is generally, "Oh, ok now we trust you. Go for it Imp!"

[Sega AM2]

But she had to confess on those crimes just to get contact with the outside world, without confessing she would have been left to rot.

LOLOLOL! This makes zero sense. You guys will reach for anything to defend GRRM.

Look at what happens. She gets rewarded for confessing to completely minor crimes. She confesses to fornication and rewarded with release and allowed to plot her trial by combat and everything else. She is allowed contact with the outside world after merely confessing to fornication. But she is still denying the major crimes like killing the previous High Septon.

Why would they hold her in a cell and confine her for fornication and not confine her for murder and incest? Does the High Septon care more about fornication than murder and incestuous kings ruling? What sense does it make to confine her for denying fornication but not to confine her for having the previous High Septon murdered?

Robert Strong isn't a factor until after she's confessed, been given permission to speak to Kevan and persuaded him to involve Qyburn. Robert Strong isn't able to defend her from the more serious crimes until she's extracted herself from her initial predicament.

She is punished more for denying her fornication than denying her involvement in murder and putting bastards on the Iron Throne. The Faith won't release her when she's on trial for fornication...but they'll release her and allow her visitors when she is still on trial for murdering the previous High Septon? It makes absolutely no sense to me why they would do that. Plot hole.

Since nobody would speak to her at all or permit her visitors until she confessed, I felt she did something smart in confessing to those crimes so she could get some leverage instead of just being a slowly maddened prisoner.

Why would the High Septon not allow her any leverage for minor crimes like fornication? Why would they confine her and force her to confess for something so trivial only to let her out to plot her escape from the truly major crimes? It's as if they don't care about the accusations of murder.

The Faith keeps her confined for fornication but then they don't care to confine her when she is on trial for murdering the previous High Septon? Really? They let her run free when she's accused of murder? But for fornication they lock her in a cell and wake her every hour?

And then once she'd confessed to them, the High Sparrow wasn't going to let her get away with just the trial by combat -- which proves innocence, rather than exonerating you of crimes to which you've confessed.

So the High Sparrow gets her to confess to fornication only to let her get away with murder? Is that what you are saying? He won't let her get away with a trial by combat for fornication? But he'll let her get away with a trial by combat for murder?

Clearly she is getting trial by combat for murder. The silent Ser Robert Strong is coming to stand for her. The High Sparrow is letting her risk an accusation of murder, a major crime, on trial by combat. But he won't let her have a trial by combat for fornication?

[Logen Ninefingers]

LOLOLOL! This makes zero sense. You guys will reach for anything to defend GRRM.

Look at what happens. She gets rewarded for confessing to completely minor crimes. She confesses to fornication and rewarded with release and allowed to plot her trial by combat and everything else. She is allowed contact with the outside world after merely confessing to fornication. But she is still denying the major crimes like killing the previous High Septon.

Why would they hold her in a cell and confine her for fornication and not confine her for murder and incest? Does the High Septon care more about fornication than murder and incestuous kings ruling? What sense does it make to confine her for denying fornication but not to confine her for having the previous High Septon murdered?

She is punished more for denying her fornication than denying her involvement in murder and putting bastards on the Iron Throne. The Faith won't release her when she's on trial for fornication...but they'll release her and allow her visitors when she is still on trial for murdering the previous High Septon? It makes absolutely no sense to me why they would do that. Plot hole.

Why would the High Septon not allow her any leverage for minor crimes like fornication? Why would they confine her and force her to confess for something so trivial only to let her out to plot her escape from the truly major crimes? It's as if they don't care about the accusations of murder.

The Faith keeps her confined for fornication but then they don't care to confine her when she is on trial for murdering the previous High Septon? Really? They let her run free when she's accused of murder? But for fornication they lock her in a cell and wake her every hour?

So the High Sparrow gets her to confess to fornication only to let her get away with murder? Is that what you are saying? He won't let her get away with a trial by combat for fornication? But he'll let her get away with a trial by combat for murder?

Clearly she is getting trial by combat for murder. The silent Ser Robert Strong is coming to stand for her. The High Sparrow is letting her risk an accusation of murder, a major crime, on trial by combat. But he won't let her have a trial by combat for fornication?

Yeah that's me, blindly defending GRRM against your entirely illogical logic

LOLOLOL whatever that means

[eleusis]

These are insane religious zealots for whom fornication and adultery are not "minor crimes". And if you think Cersei's walk through the city was 'letting her get away with' anything, idk what to tell you. It completely devastated her power base forever.

[Raksha the Demon]

Cersei is lucky; she got away with multiple murders. Yes, she's been humiliated, shamed. She's still breathing. Three of Robert's young bastard children and their mothers are not, thanks to her. Lady Falyse may have been a petty social climber with a desire to do away with her brother-in-law; but she didn't deserve to be tortured into a vegetative state by the Dr. Mengele of Westeros, thanks to Cersei, when it was Cersei who enticed Falyse and her husband into plotting against Bronn. Not to mention her complicity in Robert's death, etc., Bran's crippling, etc, the incarceration of Margaery and all of Margaery's innocent maids-in-waiting on trumped-up charges. Cersei got off easy.

[Trebla]

It was certainly an uncomfortable chapter. I did find some parts comical: Cersei walking naked while "meat pies" and "chestnuts" were being hawked. :P But the rest was pretty horrifying. I felt sympathy for Cersei when I thought I never would. I think the change will allow for a transformation. As other have pointed out, it could be similar to Jaime losing his sword-hand. The remarks by people that underneath at all she's just like any other woman will force her to use other methods of manipulation. But unfortunately for her it's going to be too late. She will certainly cause issues, as Varys knows, but it will just lead her further to her downfall.

[Claireducky]

LOLOLOL! This makes zero sense. You guys will reach for anything to defend GRRM.

Look at what happens. She gets rewarded for confessing to completely minor crimes. She confesses to fornication and rewarded with release and allowed to plot her trial by combat and everything else. She is allowed contact with the outside world after merely confessing to fornication. But she is still denying the major crimes like killing the previous High Septon.

Why would they hold her in a cell and confine her for fornication and not confine her for murder and incest? Does the High Septon care more about fornication than murder and incestuous kings ruling? What sense does it make to confine her for denying fornication but not to confine her for having the previous High Septon murdered?

She is punished more for denying her fornication than denying her involvement in murder and putting bastards on the Iron Throne. The Faith won't release her when she's on trial for fornication...but they'll release her and allow her visitors when she is still on trial for murdering the previous High Septon? It makes absolutely no sense to me why they would do that. Plot hole.

Why would the High Septon not allow her any leverage for minor crimes like fornication? Why would they confine her and force her to confess for something so trivial only to let her out to plot her escape from the truly major crimes? It's as if they don't care about the accusations of murder.

The Faith keeps her confined for fornication but then they don't care to confine her when she is on trial for murdering the previous High Septon? Really? They let her run free when she's accused of murder? But for fornication they lock her in a cell and wake her every hour?

So the High Sparrow gets her to confess to fornication only to let her get away with murder? Is that what you are saying? He won't let her get away with a trial by combat for fornication? But he'll let her get away with a trial by combat for murder?

Clearly she is getting trial by combat for murder. The silent Ser Robert Strong is coming to stand for her. The High Sparrow is letting her risk an accusation of murder, a major crime, on trial by combat. But he won't let her have a trial by combat for fornication?

I don't know how many more ways you can repeat yourself, but that was impressive, nonetheless.

Ok, look at it this way. You have a zealot in charge of the faith, a zealot who wants to return the position of High Septon and the influence of the Seven around Westeros to a MUCH higher place than it is currently (see Faith Militant).

Margaery and Cersei were both held for the fornication charges initially.

While all of Margaery's accusers (save one) have recanted, none of Cersei's have, including star witness pious Lancel. The Septon KNOWS she is guilty of at least the fornication charges.

The view of the public towards the faith is all important when looking at his decisions. If he wants the Faith to increase in influence, he can't fuck either of these thing up as far as the public views it. You make the very large mistake of assuming the High Septon is actually interested in JUSTICE, when all he really wants is more power for the Faith.

He released Margaery because

1. The case against her isn't very strong, probably not meriting the kind of confinement treatment Cersei gets.

2. Mace Tyrell is very influential, he can't afford to piss off the Tyrells. (note that all of Cersei's influence is through her son at this point, and Tommen can't command her release and risk getting on the wrong side of the Faith).

3. Loras is on his deathbed, and reeling her is viewed as a kindness by both the Tyrells AND by the public.

4. Most importantly, because the public LOVE Margaery. If he wants to retain the support of the small folk, he can't be seen to treat her poorly. In fact, he has a lot to gain by having her proven innocent at her trial (which you notice, will be by the faith, NOT by combat, and so it will be easily rigged). By finding her innocent, the Faith gains the accolade of the common folk and the appearance of being a fair and impartial court, which could lead to common acceptance of arrests and trials by the Faith for many crimes. Flavors of the Inquisition all over this bitch.

He kept Cersei because

1. He Knows she is guilty of at least the fornications, and with enough poor treatment, can maybe get a confession (which he did). Why throw away a sure deal on that confession by hazarding it in a trial by combat with the other charges?

2. No one has the power to free her but Tommen, and that can't be risked, as Kevan later explains. She has no one with enough influence (and the love of the people) to get her out of jail. The small folk are indifferent to Tommen, at best.

3. Most importantly, the public Hates Cersei. The septon has a lot to gain by getting that fornication charge to stick, both by removing her influence from court, and from appeasing the small folk (who are who this whole shaming thing is for, not the fans of the books) .

So in essence, Yes, the Septon is perfectly ok with her being on trial for murder, but not the fornication. All he needed was that confession to publicly shame her, winning the approval of the Commons and destroying her at court. It's possible that he even talked to Kevan about her being removed to Casterly Rock if the trial for murder found her innocent. Once that void at court is opened, there would be room for more pious whisperings from the Faith in Tommen's ear.

And THAT is why Cersei was treated like crap until she broke and confess, not because GRRM has a hardon for sexually torturing her, or to pander to his Fans (although undoubtedly, there were some who cheered at that chapter).

Personally, I think Cersei just continued her string of follies by letting herself be gulled into it. She should have sat tight and waited for the trial, and put trust in Qyburn. Once Qyburn heard of Oakheart dying, he surely would have talked to Kevan about Gregorstein without Cersei's intervention.

[guag]

"Gratuitous" is the LAST thing that would come to mind. Personally, I saw Cercei's penance walk as Clockwork Orange Light. And what does Clockwork Orange tell us? In a nutshell, it tells us that even the worst crime imaginable is less horrifying than the institutional degradation of a human being. (If any Gorean book so much as hinted to that simple fact, I must have missed it.:P)

Doubly so when said institution is a religious one, supposedly upholding higher moral standards and supposedly regarding compassion as a virtue. If anyone felt satisfaction reading this chapter ("the villain gets it! yay! that'll teach you, bitch!"), then it's not the author who has a problem, it's the reader. Martin is crystal clear here.

And it was completely realistic. It depicts a common punishment throughout the world, though the details could vary: degrees of undress, brutality of the spectators, transportation mode (on foot or on a mount or dragged), assorted torture, humiliation methods (shaving heads, hanging entrails around the throat etc). In the Eastern Roman Empire of the Middle Ages, it was practically a national sport. The victims were originally high-profile, such as traitors, conspirators and dethroned emperors, but the whole process became so popular that soon it applied even to petty thieves and adulterers and anything in between.

I can tell you for a fact that a similar thing was happening in Europe, specifically for adultery (women only, for some reason...), as recently as the 20th century. Shave, strip, parade through the streets, throw disgusting and/or dangerous items. By then, it was a custom law and not a law of the state or the church, but still... And I'm not even counting what happened after WWII, when German occupation ended, to the women who had love affairs with the enemy soldiers. Often for a loaf of bread, mind you. Actual collaborators of the Nazis were lucky in comparison. I urge you to watch the documentary "The sorrow and the pity" and the movie "Malena". Come to think of it, a better echo of this particular historical tidbit would be Harrenhal after it changed hands again - and the women who had slept with the enemy were chained naked in the yard for all to see and rape, free of charge. But I digress. Sorry for that, first posts are always clumsy. :)

[Alexia]

Personally, I think Cersei just continued her string of follies by letting herself be gulled into it. She should have sat tight and waited for the trial, and put trust in Qyburn.

That's what I thought...I couldn't understand why she would do it. If she had a choice between execution and being paraded naked, or being cleared of all the charges against her and not needing the trial, I get that, but just to get out of the fortress? She ought to know that it will break her power as a woman hanging on amongst men who all want to take it from her. It didn't make that much sense to me as a reader why she would do that just to get out of the temple!

[Faint]

She missed her son?

Honestly, I don't think it a poor choice. If her trial goes badly, it would have been the last opportunity for her to spend time with her child. Not saying that it will, but she doesn't know that.

[brook]

She missed her son?

From memory she also hadn't been allowed real sleep for a fair while.