[ADwD Spoilers] Cersei

[hagga on her hill]

You know, I have to say that actually this whole book is really icky on how it deals with Cersei and sexual humiliation-for example, having Tyrion say he wants to rape and kill Cersei? That's something Tyrion has never expressed before-he's always wanted to hurt her, but not to rape her. But Tyrion, who is this character we're supposed to feel so much sympathy with, is able to say it, and it's not presented as a bad thing, it's presented as a "How great that Tyrion is so honest" thing.

Also, yeah, it is pretty fucked up that she comes in after that, naked and covered in slime, and is all "Where's my son? I want to see him RIGHT NOW."

I'm pretty sure that this, and every other disgusting thing Tyrion says about women especially in the first half of this book, is presented in an incredibly negative light. We, the readers, are supposed to be repulsed, or at least made deeply uncomfortable, by the depths to which this formerly sympathetic character is sinking wrt the misogyny that's always been a major character flaw. Introducing a miserable, victimized, battered Cersei crying for her children after Tyrion's ugly line sets up Cersei as a sympathetic figure and shows the reader, in case it had somehow managed to go over their heads, how fucked up Tyrion's attitude towards her is. I agree with the poster who says the shaming sequence (like her flashbacks to Robert the rapist in AFFC) is there to make readers who have wanted to see her sexually humiliated or brought low get exactly what they wanted, and feel sick. And yeah, I'm well aware that a lot of readers don't understand this and DO see this kind of shaming of them and their ill-wishes by GRRM as "fanservice", which is IMO disgusting.

[Raksha the Demon]

I'm pretty sure that this, and every other disgusting thing Tyrion says about women especially in the first half of this book, is presented in an incredibly negative light. We, the readers, are supposed to be repulsed, or at least made deeply uncomfortable, by the depths to which this formerly sympathetic character is sinking wrt the misogyny that's always been a major character flaw. Introducing a miserable, victimized, battered Cersei crying for her children after Tyrion's ugly line sets up Cersei as a sympathetic figure and shows the reader, in case it had somehow managed to go over their heads, how fucked up Tyrion's attitude towards her is. I agree with the poster who says the shaming sequence (like her flashbacks to Robert the rapist in AFFC) is there to make readers who have wanted to see her sexually humiliated or brought low get exactly what they wanted, and feel sick. And yeah, I'm well aware that a lot of readers don't understand this and DO see this kind of shaming of them and their ill-wishes by GRRM as "fanservice", which is IMO disgusting.

I haven't read ADwD yet; came to this thread wishing to be spoiled for certain things. My thought here is that there is no way that a person can kill his father and throttle a woman he's loved and not grow emotionally darker; and this apparent misogyny could be a result. Also, Tyrion has not been treated well by women post-Tysha; and the decision he made to murder Shae might have exacerbated the sorrow he felt about that and turned it into a burning resentment.

Cersei's being victimized and crying for her children might make her more pathetic, but it doesn't change the fact that she sent men out to kill a helpless baby and an innocent young man for the crime of being Robert's children - the young whore probably cried for her baby too. Not to mention that Cersei supposedly had Robert's two bastards on Casterly Rock also killed.

Personally, I prefer a quick death for even the most evil of people, in books or in real life. I don't get any charge out of seeing fictional characters tortured; and would really not like to think of real people being tortured, though of course, sadly, I know it happens far too often.

[Zezibesh]

In addition to that, Tyrion is (imo) presented far less sympathetically than he was originally. He even comments on his constant drunkeness, reduced wittiness, etc.

He became a lot funnier IMO, more sarcastic.

[Alytha]

The thing that struck me about these chapters is mostly how the Faith's tactic utterly and completely fails, as Cersei's reaction to it is not: "oh gods, what have I dobe, I'll be a better person now", but: "how dare they do that to me, a Lannister etc etc, now I'm really going to show them". She sees nothing wrong in herself or what she's done to others.

Some people need to get their hubris cracked by drastic means in order to get an objective look at themselves and change (no that does not mean I advocate rape or something like that). I don't think this has happened for Cersei and she's going to continue just as she was, with maybe more evil and crazy added into it. It's pretty obvious that her act towards Kevan is BS.

[Kalbear]

Oh, I wasn't suggesting that her punishment was more severe than her crimes. I'm saying that GRRM's route on this disturbs me, because it feels like it was written to evoke pleasure and laughter, and I have issues with encouraging readers to delight in the sexual humiliation of ANY character.

I didn't take that from it at all. I took it as a way to sympathize Cersei to some degree. She goes through a fair amount of torture here, torture to her and her self-image and her haughty demeanor that is really all she has left. At the end she's picked up like a baby and carried around, reduced to mewling and bawling.

This is not (to me at least) something that makes me go 'hell yeah'. If anything, those that are saying this are likely to get their shit fucked up when her champion starts laying waste to people and she goes back to ruling with Kevan's death removing that step. She now knows full well who her enemies are - and I think she is going to take her vengeance.

[Nightwyng]

Me neither, I'm swinging my sword down like Jon did to Janos Slynt on this one.

Lol, sounds like a Northman to me.

[Ser Pistus]

I took it as a way to sympathize Cersei to some degree.

This is not the first time GRRM does this: a monster falls into the hands of an even bigger monster. Think of Vargo Hoat and Gregor Clegane. Or Marillion and Littlefinger. Or Theon and Ramsay.

Plus an additional benefit is to disabuse any readers who hoped that the religious fanatics were "basically good guys" :D

[Kalbear]

This is not the first time GRRM does this: a monster falls into the hands of an even bigger monster. Think of Vargo Hoat and Gregor Clegane. Or Marillion and Littlefinger. Or Theon and Ramsay.

Or as a better parallel, Hoat and Jaime.

Jaime lost the one thing he could really count on - his sword ability. Cersei - in that bit of humiliation - lost her beauty. Absolutely and truly.

[Sega AM2]

This, coupled with events of previous books and notably GRRM saying Robert is a "pretty good guy" despite raping Cersei, inclines me more and more to include that he has a bizarre, inexplicable fixation with sexually tormenting and degrading this particular character. And it really leaves a bitter aftertaste in my mouth.

For the last time....Robert does not rape Cersei. Ever. She lies. Constantly. In ADWD she outright thinks to herself "on the morning of my wedding to Robert I fucked Jaime". Hello? You think when she spoke to Ned that Robert "called out Lyanna's name" and "took his rights as husband" that she was telling the truth? While she's telling her lies to Ned she's rubbing her hand on his cock at the same time trying to seduce him. Sex, lies, deception, are some of Cersei's weapons and she wields them often. To quote the little money demon "Cersei is a lying whore". Jaime knows it. Ned knows it. Lancel knows it. Tyrion knows it. The readers.....apparently don't know it.

Cersei lies. Only a fool believes her accusations about Robert to Ned. She is playing him. Playing the game of thrones. She's backed into a corner, Ned knows about her children with Jaime, and she lies about Robert and tries to seduce Ned while plotting Robert's death and trying to secure the City Watch. She brings up Lyanna's name to cause an emotional response in Ned and gain his sympathy and then continues to attempt to win his sympathy by saying that Robert never loved her and only loved Lyanna. Meanwhile she fucks her brother on her wedding night which is the real truth and she is the one who never loved her spouse. It's all about the Iron Throne with Cersei. The more we find out about Cersei the easier her lies are to spot.

Who says Robert raped Cersei? Cersei. The same person who the day of her wedding sleeps with her brother. Robert was no rapist. He seemed extremely confident that he could get many women and he often did. Brothels, weddings, Tuesdays....any location or occasion was good enough for Robert the Usurper to get laid.

Say what you want about the slut shaming style of that passage and GRRM's always awkward and creepy sex scenes (I love how both Dany and Asha beg for fucking in nearby chapters...high fantasy indeed). But Robert never raped Cersei. He even says to Ned that Cersei guarded "herself" and that he hasn't attempted to bed her in years. If Robert was bedding Cersei regularly he'd tell of it to Ned. He's not ashamed to admit that he hasn't bedded her in a long time though. Instead we know that Robert sired a billion bastards because his wife was never there for him sexually. The only evidence we ever get of Robert raping Cersei is from her own mouth and she was masterful liar and seductress probably to the point where she believes her own lies.

Are some (most?) of the sex scenes in the ASOIAF novels creepy and awkward? I certainly find some of them as comical as the sexposition scenes on Game of Thrones. The most fantastical elements of ADWD were not the scenes with Dragons or Giants but the sex scenes with Asha and Dany where they are practically panting for sex like some Penthouse Magazine scenario.

But Cersei? Her character arc is laid out clearly and none of this is out of left field. Tywin screams at Tyrion to never bed a whore because it brings dishonor on their house. Meanwhile Jaime and Cersei are sleeping with each other and creating incestuous bastards. And Cersei is practically sleeping around so much that Tyrion confuses her for a whore. The layers of irony in the Lannister family seem mapped out carefully by GRRM. Scream at the freak dwarf for bringing dishonor upon house Lannister while the two good looking children perform curses deeds like incest and treason. And Twin was having Varys bring him to brothels meanwhile. Cersei tries to find Shae. Shae testifies against Tyrion. And Tywin uses Shae for his own pleasure and Tyrion kills them both. The use of whores even is what causes Tyrion to be locked up by Jorah in ADWD.

"Where do whores go"?

[Ran]

By a modern definition, yes, Robert raped and abused her -- he forced her to "do her duty" when she was unwilling, and left her bruised and sore. He would then apologize for it afterward, claiming it was because he drank too much.

He did not treat her well. Cersei in her own thoughts about what Robert did. Robert was a lout when it came to her.

[jxd]

I didn't feel bad at all for her, she lost her dignity, but not her life; some, like Ned, lost both

[corbaekin]

Yeah, I think that we can assume that people lie, but not in their internal monologue POVs. I think this is one reason we will never get some people as POV characters: because they know too much, and their reactions would be really telling.

I think it is a flaw to assume that because Robert had a lot of willing bed partners, that he wouldn't have done what we, non-medieval readers, would call rape. In medieval times, which this is strongly based on, it was not legally possible to rape your wife. In fact, it wasn't even possible here until the late 1960s. It was assumed that a husband by law had marital "rights". He also would not have been able to be secure in the marriage until it was consumnated, or secure in his throne until he had an heir. He needed to have sex with Cersei, whatever she felt about it.

And I also don't see any reason for her to lie about Robert thinking about Lyanna. Robert himself makes it clear that Lyanna's memory is more potent than the reality of Cersei, constantly. He is still obsessed with her, can still hear no ill of him, no defense of Rhaegar and the Targaryens. He is willing to kill women and children because Rhaegar took the woman he thought he loved away.

Do I think that Cersei would have loved him anyway? No. But Cersei wanted to be a queen, and might have been far less resentful, perhaps "fond" at least.

[zuziako]

I did not find Cersei naked walk as that repulsive, it even seemed fitting, concerning the medieval setting and the nature of her crimes (sexual). I think it was very well done, from her pride, to the fall and determination.

[Ferrous]

I can tell you as a man, I found zero sexual satisfaction in this chapter.

I don't think this chapter was written for fan service.

Given Cersei's character, the only ways to punish her would be this, maiming her, or killing her children.

I also think her punishment was lesser than Theons.

[Lost Time]

Was the chapter made to make me feel sick or sympathize with her character? Could've fooled me because I was only disappointed it wasn't worse.

And ultimately she gets what she wants in the end with her "knight in charming armor" being granted a spot in the Kingsguard.

Give her to Ramsay Bolton and maybe I'll feel sympathetic about the plight. Maybe.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

As I said before, this was Cersei's equivalent of Jaime losing his sword hand.

The question is whether Cersei will react the same way that Jaime did. Of course Jaime also had Brienne, who showed him what honor was. Who's going to be Cersei's guide?

[Sega AM2]

The question is whether Cersei will react the same way that Jaime did. Of course Jaime also had Brienne, who showed him what honor was. Who's going to be Cersei's guide?

I think we already know this. Jaime lost his hand while simultaneously being escorted by a female warrior who holds honor above everything else. Not only that but Brienne was also a Kingslayer at that point so Jaime shares with her the story his killing of Aerys. It was a perfect setup for Jaime to turn his life around. "The hand that I touched Cersei with, the hand I slayed Aerys with, the hand I pushed Bran with....gone". Jaime constantly thinks to himself how he will clean up his act and hopefully die with a noble page in the white book. He could write anything he wanted.....anything he wanted.

Cersei is already plotting her savage revenge against The Faith. "I'll have her tongue cut out". Kill this one, that one, and so on. And now she has lost Kevan to guide her and hold order. She still has Magaery to torment her. And she lost Pycelle as well. When she finds out about Myrcella? Oh lord. Her next mission is to have Zombieguard champion her as well so she'll be right back to business when he wins. And business? Varys kills Kevan with a crossbow just to drive Cersei even more bananas with shadows of Tyrion. Cersei will keep the South in chaos and make way for New Aegon and even more war and strife.

[Kalbear]

Varys shot Kevan with a crossbow; he's going to have tons of knife wounds too when it's all over.

One crackpot theory: Cersei will now marry Doran for vengeance against the Tyrells and turn the Lannisters against the realm for the Targs. I think her goal of vengeance against the Tyrells will be all-encompassing at this point, and I don't think she'll have the power at court she did before. She'll need somewhere else to turn. And why not him? Why not ally for something other than attraction or the realm?

[Ran]

Marrying Doran? He's married to Mellario, and though they're estranged, I don't think he would ask to have his marriage annulled (nor am I sure the High Septon would grant the annullment).

As I've said for a long time, Cersei's going to be vindicated but end up in Casterly Rock, ostensibly as Lady of Casterly Rock but also supposedly kept under close guard... and then she will Cause. Trouble. Very Eleanor of Aquitaine.

TWoW Spoiler:

George was recently asked if we'd ever see Casterly Rock in TWoW, and he said we may. He said a few years ago that Casterly Rock was one of the locales he meant to show.

[Jon AS]

One crackpot theory: Cersei will now marry Doran

Leaving aside everything else, isn't he still married, just separated from his wife?