[ADwD Spoilers] Cersei

[merveilleux]

Who washere it that predicted that GRRM would sexualize Cersei's humiliation? Because, yeah, that was beyond creepy.

I don't buy into the general misogyny accusations that people lob at the series, because I don't think they're founded on the whole. But Cersei's slut-shaming is disturbing, primarily because it's written as though it's righteous. It reads like something out of a Gorean book, in no small part because there was an almost titillating tone to it. It was almost as if it was written to appeal to the TAKE THAT WHORE! sensibilities of some of the readers.

There are a thousand and one horrible punishments that Cersei would justly deserve, but I question the choice to subject her to sexual humiliation. Is that the only "just" punishment he can conceive of for her? Is this what she deserves because she's a bitch? Are we supposed to cheer that she's being demeaned as the worthless whore she is?

This, coupled with events of previous books and notably GRRM saying Robert is a "pretty good guy" despite raping Cersei, inclines me more and more to include that he has a bizarre, inexplicable fixation with sexually tormenting and degrading this particular character. And it really leaves a bitter aftertaste in my mouth.

[Ran]

Oh, I took a completely different perspective. The High Septon believed it was righteous, but he's a zealot, of course he'd think it was righteous. In fact, the way that he just shoved all of her sins on the label of "wanton woman being woman" was ... well, misogynistic as hell, and obviously so. It's clear that that attitude is meant to be disgusting.

And yet, yes, it fits the sort of Middle Ages. It's already been introduced, even, in ASoS with what Tywin did to his father's mistress.

As to Robert being a pretty good guy... well, yes? Does the fact that a doctor who saves lives also beats his wife means that he's actually a terrible person? Is it black or white... or is it grey?

Remember the conversation between Davos and Melisandre, and you'll know where George stands.

[Slick Mongoose]

I got the impression that it was a disgusting and unnecessary humiliation that she was tortured into (sleep deprivation) by a religious nutcase.

I definitely didn't get the impression that the author thought this was a good thing.

[Fez]

TBH, I did sort of get the impression that it was fan-service of a sort. Most people wanted to see Cersei punished for bringing about Ned's downfall (even though that was mostly Littlefinger) as well as being an all-around bitch, and so here she is, being completely humiliated. What happened could have still happened and be realistic without it being described in such long detail.

[Jon AS]

Count me in with those who did not get the idea that this was painted as something positive. I felt it was supposed to be profoundly disturbing, both for the character and for the reader.

[Slick Mongoose]

TBH, I did sort of get the impression that it was fan-service of a sort. Most people wanted to see Cersei punished for bringing about Ned's downfall (even though that was mostly Littlefinger) as well as being an all-around bitch, and so here she is, being completely humiliated. What happened could have still happened and be realistic without it being described in such long detail.

Now that would have been fan service. Giving the fans what they wanted.

Instead, i'm thinking that Cersei may have been horrible, but she didn't deserve that.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I'm sorry, but I can't feel bad for Cersei. Even when I was tempted to in this chapter, I'd just have to remind myself things like Lady's death, little Barra and mother killed, and Qyburn's experiments, etc. And I just want Cersei to suffer as much as possible. And given how proud she is, the worst punishment for her is humiliation, and she got it in spades. I'm glad.

Please don't tell me she didn't deserve it, she deserve it and more.

[abcd]

I never thought i would feel pity for cersei till this happened :(

[Ygritte]

It's another bit of historical reference, too. This is what happened in real life to Jane Shore, who was the mistress of Edward IV (on whom Robert was largely based). So it's a departure in that it happens to the widow rather than the mistress, but I think it's a reference nonetheless.

[Slick Mongoose]

It's another bit of historical reference, too. This is what happened in real life to Jane Shore, who was the mistress of Edward IV (on whom Robert was largely based). So it's a departure in that it happens to the widow rather than the mistress, but I think it's a reference nonetheless.

Thanks, I didn't know that.

[Ygritte]

Thanks, I didn't know that.

OK, I need to make at least a partial correction :( --I looked it up to be sure, and Jane Shore was paraded in an underdress but not nude.

[Slick Mongoose]

Close enough that it was probably deliberate.

[Whitering]

Close enough that it was probably deliberate.

Cersei deserves far worse. However, I do think it was meant to be a blow to any reader who thought that this High Septon was a good guy. He is definitely an extremist.

I found it interesting that he let Margery go. He doesn't seem to believe any of her accusers, but the others being in Qyburn's care doesn't bode well.

No matter what Qyburn did to the Blue Bard, he eventually has to be more scared of the church doesn't he?

[silkeno]

Being shaved and paraded naked is something that did happen to women for various crimes including adultery. Yes, medieval Europe is full of misogyny, blame the bible for that.

As for her punishment, is being paraded naked in public really THAT bad considering the things she's done?

It's no more that a slap on the wrist compared to what some poor sods in these books have had to suffer - think of poor innocent Lollys for a start, and she never did harm to no one.

[Erya]

I'm sorry, but while that was indeed uncomfortable to read, I do not think that a public shaming made up for all the lives she ruined and all the murders she committed. (Robert's twins, Melara...)

She got off lightly.

Now, if this walk humbled her permanently (like Kevan thinks) and she tries to be a better person from now on, I might actually forgive her a bit. But I doubt it.

[Linda]

I think that GRRM, as usual, is really good at letting you see any experience from the POV in question. I felt for Varamyr in the prologue and for Theon in his chapters, and while you are in Cersei's head in her POV, it does feel like a pretty harsh experience. But once you pull back and look at the overall...these people have done some terrible things. Doesn't mean they don't have feelings.

As for Cersei now... I don't believe for a moment that Kevan's right about Cersei. Now she is truly dangerous, forced to actually be careful and cunning rather than wielding power poorly. In fact, she's not that dissimilar to Tyrion in some ways; when you think they're down and out, they really use all their resources.

[merveilleux]

Oh, I took a completely different perspective. The High Septon believed it was righteous, but he's a zealot, of course he'd think it was righteous. In fact, the way that he just shoved all of her sins on the label of "wanton woman being woman" was ... well, misogynistic as hell, and obviously so. It's clear that that attitude is meant to be disgusting.

And yet, yes, it fits the sort of Middle Ages. It's already been introduced, even, in ASoS with what Tywin did to his father's mistress.

As to Robert being a pretty good guy... well, yes? Does the fact that a doctor who saves lives also beats his wife means that he's actually a terrible person? Is it black or white... or is it grey?

Remember the conversation between Davos and Melisandre, and you'll know where George stands.

I don't consider doctors who beat and rape their wives to be good people, no.

[merveilleux]

TBH, I did sort of get the impression that it was fan-service of a sort. Most people wanted to see Cersei punished for bringing about Ned's downfall (even though that was mostly Littlefinger) as well as being an all-around bitch, and so here she is, being completely humiliated. What happened could have still happened and be realistic without it being described in such long detail.

Yes, exactly. It was SO LONG that it felt like GRRM was getting off on it.

[merveilleux]

I'm sorry, but I can't feel bad for Cersei. Even when I was tempted to in this chapter, I'd just have to remind myself things like Lady's death, little Barra and mother killed, and Qyburn's experiments, etc. And I just want Cersei to suffer as much as possible. And given how proud she is, the worst punishment for her is humiliation, and she got it in spades. I'm glad.

Please don't tell me she didn't deserve it, she deserve it and more.

Nobody deserves sexual humiliation in my opinion. Period. I would not wish that upon anyone. I am not one of the people who thinks murderers should be gangraped.

[merveilleux]

It's another bit of historical reference, too. This is what happened in real life to Jane Shore, who was the mistress of Edward IV (on whom Robert was largely based). So it's a departure in that it happens to the widow rather than the mistress, but I think it's a reference nonetheless.

Being shaved and paraded naked is something that did happen to women for various crimes including adultery. Yes, medieval Europe is full of misogyny, blame the bible for that.

As for her punishment, is being paraded naked in public really THAT bad considering the things she's done?

It's no more that a slap on the wrist compared to what some poor sods in these books have had to suffer - think of poor innocent Lollys for a start, and she never did harm to no one.

I do understand that it's happened, but the thing is that GRRM's hate for her is so palpable, and the scene was so LONG, that it felt like it was meant to cause sadistic pleasure. It felt like he was getting off on demeaning her sexually. And that bothers me.

I'm sorry, but while that was indeed uncomfortable to read, I do not think that a public shaming made up for all the lives she ruined and all the murders she committed. (Robert's twins, Melara...)

She got off lightly.

Now, if this walk humbled her permanently (like Kevan thinks) and she tries to be a better person from now on, I might actually forgive her a bit. But I doubt it.

Oh, I wasn't suggesting that her punishment was more severe than her crimes. I'm saying that GRRM's route on this disturbs me, because it feels like it was written to evoke pleasure and laughter, and I have issues with encouraging readers to delight in the sexual humiliation of ANY character. There have been other scenes of sexual humiliation that were written in a very dark, gritty, non-fanservice way. I felt like the intent of this scene was very different, in part because of how much more loathing GRRM has for Cersei than for any other POV character.

Don't get me wrong, here: I think it would be entirely justifiable to draw and quarter Cersei. I think it would be justifiable to peel her skin off piece by piece. It's just the prolonged, sadistic sexual humiliation that rubs me the wrong way, particularly given the male reader base. I feel like he's encouraging delight in a woman being sexually humiliated in a way that he's never encouraged delight in a male being humiliated.

(Incidentally, it isn't "no big deal" to me. I would personally rather be physically tortured than sexually degraded. I'm not speaking for anyone other than myself on that, though, although I do know some women who would agree. This is magnified 1000x fold in an extremely misogynistic setting.)