Howling North Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Can't see her leaving King's Landing just yet myself. She'd never stand for the Tyrells taking control, and the rest of House Lannister will have no one else to turn too besides her with Kevan's death. If/when she's cleared of the charges after Ser Robert finishes taking care of business she's going to be able to reclaim the regency, and then we'll see what goodies will arise after that, especially now that she's been undermined publicly her grip on power will be even more tenuous, which will make her all the more paranoid and desperate I imagine... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Ran, why would she leave KL now? Kevan was named protector of Tommen - but he's dead, as is the Grand Maester. Surely Cersei wouldn't accept someone else as protector of Tommen, and she's be right not to. I think the way it'll play out is that we'll see her win her championship (and probably Sandor's death, sadly), then reasonably have her claim that she cannot trust the Tyrells to take care of her child while people in KL are murdering Lannister men. Now, she might fuck off to the Rock - but if she does so, I bet she does so with Tommen in tow. Mostly, however, I think that once she shows penitence and shows that she is a woman of the Septon, she'll have power enough to stick around.As to marrying Doran - you're right, I forgot he was still married. She still needs to reach out to someone though. I wonder who?Theon, perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mack Kilimaro Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 As to marrying Doran - you're right, I forgot he was still married. She still needs to reach out to someone though. I wonder who?Theon, perhaps?Although the point was kind of driven home in Feast that Cersei is dumb enough to think that she's smart enough to do it all by her lonesome. What greater incentive does she have to marry post-trial that she didn't have during the events of Feast? I guess that depends on how seriously she takes the Aegon VI/Golden Company invasion and just how much the fences are mended with the Tyrells - which of course, if you believe Varys in the epilogue, Kevan was too close to actually accomplishing and thus his untimely demise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scabbard Of the Morning Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Sandor better kill unGregor, what's the point of him not dying if he's just going to get killed by unGregor, might as well just have him die and have unGregor kill some other nameless knight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Although the point was kind of driven home in Feast that Cersei is dumb enough to think that she's smart enough to do it all by her lonesome. What greater incentive does she have to marry post-trial that she didn't have during the events of Feast? I guess that depends on how seriously she takes the Aegon VI/Golden Company invasion and just how much the fences are mended with the Tyrells - which of course, if you believe Varys in the epilogue, Kevan was too close to actually accomplishing and thus his untimely demise. I think that this trial has made her more aware of needing staunch allies bound by more than just a word. I also think that they've made her a bit more subtle; she knows what she wants now and she knows who opposes her, and she wants vengeance for it. And she knows she doesn't have all the power on her own. She can't do everything. Or maybe you're right; maybe she'll flail ineffectively against her enemies and break things more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slick Mongoose Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 I hope she turns into an effective player again. It'd be far more interesting that her repeating the same mistakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mack Kilimaro Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 I hope she turns into an effective player again. It'd be far more interesting that her repeating the same mistakes.I just figure if she starts doing too well again, Varys can have her whacked, no problem.Though of course, we as the readers figure she won't die at Varys' hands due to the Maggy the Frog prophecy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slick Mongoose Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 I just figure if she starts doing too well again, Varys can have her whacked, no problem.Though of course, we as the readers figure she won't die at Varys' hands due to the Maggy the Frog prophecy.Yes, I guess if Sandor kills Robert Strong at the start of WoW it's a bit irrelevent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronn Stone Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 It is possible to strip her of the thing she treasured most without writing it that damned extensively and fanservice-y. It crossed the boundary between plot device and gratuitous sadism fodder for me.And, again, I feel the need to clarify that my problem with this has nothing to do with a) whether Cersei deserved it or B) whether you should feel bad for her. I have an issue with GRRM's persistent hatred for and sexual degradation of one target character. It's not just a matter of what happens to Cersei – it's how he portrays it happening to her. And I get the vibe that he wants people to get off on her sexual humiliation. Which is creepy as fuck.Actually, I think the fact that you interpret this the way you do is a tad creepy. I don't think anyone else here thinks GRRM intended to titillate his audience with that scene. We were supposed to be horrified, and were.I also believe it was necessary, IF Cersei is actually going to learn from the experience. She needed to have her massive barriers broken to bits. Sex will cease to be a weapon for her in the foreseeable future. It will be interesting if she can make her way using her other gifts (high birth, wealth, intelligence (not wisdom, clearly)). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Fick Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Actually, I think the fact that you interpret this the way you do is a tad creepy. I don't think anyone else here thinks GRRM intended to titillate his audience with that scene. We were supposed to be horrified, and were.Which is the case, of course, with almost all of Martin's explicitly sexual scenes (usually involving prostitution, manipulation, degradation, coercion or rape). And contrary to many readers' sentiment, I really appreciate his ability to make them as horrifying as they are.How anyone could read this particular Cersei chapter as intended to be titillating is beyond me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spring Bass Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 How anyone could read this particular Cersei chapter as intended to be titillating is beyond me. It's a side-effect of having an explicitly written scene of degradation, particularly sexual degradation experienced by a woman character. You're always going to have readers for whom it's too graphic. I personally found the scene horrifying, and felt sympathy for Cersei in spite of her stupid, cruel, vile acts in AFFC. Much in the way that the Red Wedding chapter is dominated by Catelyn's increasing sense of wrongness and horror, the Cersei chapter is dominated by her increasing sense of humiliation, until it finally shatters her deep arrogance and pride. I think it's an extremely well-written chapter, one of the best in the book. Or maybe you're right; maybe she'll flail ineffectively against her enemies and break things more.I doubt it. Put me in the camp that believes Cersei will become a subtler, more dangerous player in the Game of Thrones because of this. There's a direct parallel to Jaime losing his sword hand and learning to be more careful and calculating in the face of contempt and mockery (such as the scene with the Blackfish in AFFC), one which I'm almost certain will become apparent in the next book. Both have had their "Sharp Lesson".EDIT: By the way, I think this reinforces what we already knew about Tywin being a bad parent. He tried to make his children so beautiful and strong that no one would ever laugh at them, but all it did was reinforce their worst tendencies until someone or something else humbled them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrion Dragonrider Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 The chapter was horrifying and I think GRRM did draw it out intentionally, but I don't think it was for titillation. It was more effective that way since it described how a woman during the Middle Ages would have experienced such a walk. If he had just said, "and she was sexually humiliated" the reader wouldn't have gotten the full impact of how degrading the experience was. I'd rather see it accurately portrayed than have it glossed over as a non-event. I also didn't find it overly sexualized. It is a solid description of how religious authorities did degrade women during the Inquisition. Their punishments were as much about them being women than about the crimes they committed.I don't think it truly humbled Cersei though. She's far more likely to mark all those involved down as new potential targets for her vengeance. She was already plotting this when she slipped in that sly remark to Kevan about bringing Lady Merryweather back to her or whether he plans to bring his wife to court. Does anyone think Cersei really wants a "friend?" It's more likely that she wants some route back to power and she's already devised a path to it.Varys wants Cersei back in play. She creates chaos and that's what he needs in order to rally the Great Houses to Aegon. Varys kills Kevan because he's undoing all the chaos Cersei has manufactured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanna vander Poele Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 I'm definitely curious as to what Cersei will do now. Stay the mwahahaha villain queen she's always been, or become a true player of the game? I'd prefer the latter... if Tyrion vs Cersei ends up happening, then there should be a hell of a fight. Scheming all over the place :P Fight, fight, fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KyleLitke Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 By a modern definition, yes, Robert raped and abused her -- he forced her to "do her duty" when she was unwilling, and left her bruised and sore. He would then apologize for it afterward, claiming it was because he drank too much.He did not treat her well. Cersei in her own thoughts about what Robert did. Robert was a lout when it came to her.I agree with you. But I think the key thing is "by a modern definition". A lot of people want to look at this through a modern perspective, and that's fine to analyze it, but I think less fair when people are using it to attack the author. While I would say the hitting Cersei is at best unchivalrous no matter what society it is, I'm not sure if it's even POSSIBLE to "rape your wife" in this time period and setting. From a modern perspective, it absolutely is, but in this setting? I don't think so. And Cersei, who complains about getting raped, is perfectly willing to force Sansa to marry Tyrion against her will, knowing what that means, and never thinks that Tyrion should go rape his wife. I'm not saying that makes Robert a great guy. He's a grey character (like most people in these books). Hitting Cersei is hard to justify even in this "world" (although it's not as bad as, say, Ramsay), but I just don't think anyone other than Cersei would call what he did rape in this world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spring Bass Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Varys wants Cersei back in play. She creates chaos and that's what he needs in order to rally the Great Houses to Aegon. Varys kills Kevan because he's undoing all the chaos Cersei has manufactured. That's what would make Cersei becoming a better player in the Game so awesome. I'd love to see someone screw up Varys because he under-estimated them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brook Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 The most fantastical elements of ADWD were not the scenes with Dragons or Giants but the sex scenes with Asha and Dany where they are practically panting for sex like some Penthouse Magazine scenario. Yeah everyone knows young women all really hate sex, thats much less believable than dragons and giants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evanesco75 Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 It was disturbing and hard to read for me, definitely. But it was brilliant. That brief instance of remorse near the end of the walk; the slow, bitter realization that her fabled beauty wasn't enough, or even that powerful any longer; the crawl (that was the worst, most difficult bit for me); and then, right at the end, with her silent 'yes' to Qyburn's assurances regarding Ser Strong... all perfectly played, IMO. What I liked most was that her arrogance, her 'fire' that Kevan referred to later, wasn't broken/quenched at all. The mere fact that she was thinking of revenge the second she got through the Red Keep indicated that she hasn't changed, nor learnt anything. Not the way her brothers have.She's learnt to be cleverer, though. And I like it. I also agree she'll be more receptive to having real allies (marriage etc) around her this time. And yes, I'd like for her to rely on actual brains rather than her looks for once. I do like how each Lannister kid has gotten a lesson. And it'll be refreshing to see varying reactions to these lessons too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lost Lord Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Why do you all think there will be a trial? Kevan and Pycelle are dead. Shit will hit the fan immediately when Cersei finds out. I think Gregor will get unleashed early in TWOW and massacre the Tyrells and the High Septon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abaddon Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Did we all just skip the Reek chapters? What he gets is 1000x worse than Cersei's 'sexual humiliation'. Hell, what poor 'Arya' gets is 1000x worse.Maybe I was just desensitized by reading those chapters first, but by the time I got to Cersei's walk of shame, it didn't seem that bad. Put her in Ramsey Bolton's care for a few days and we'll talk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slayer420 Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 This is also what they did to women as late as World War II who would sleep with or help the germans after they freed the towns from them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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