[ADwD Spoilers] Cersei

[Alexia]

I'm essentially of the same mind. I don't think that even Ramsay Bolton deserves the Ramsay Bolton treatment. Not necessarily because I feel any level of sympathy, but because it's just pointless, and it doesn't serve anything other than to degrade yourself to the same level. If a person is as vile a human being as the likes of Cersei or Ramsay, then just kill them and be done with it. The world is better of without them.

This is exactly my thought! I loathed Vargo Hoat, but my stomach turned when I read what had been done to him. I want Cersei and Littlefinger and the Boltons and others to die, hopefully with some sort of emotional punch to it, but I don't want them to fall into the hands of greater monsters than themselves. To read that or to wish for that just leaves me feeling...unclean.

*When I say emotional punch, I'm think of unCat being the one to hang LF, or of Sansa Stark returning to KL as the new queen while Cersei looks on, or something like that.

[Datepalm]

Mod, again:

Discussions of specific moderation decisions will get deleted from public view. If you have some issue you want to discuss, feel free to take it to PM. Long standing board policy, nothing personal.

[The Lost Lord]

Just updating this thread with GRRM's commentary on the scene from his EW interview:

That was an interesting chapter to write, and based on actual medieval events. Jane Shore, mistress of King Edward IV, was punished that way after Edward died. It’s going to be a controversial scene when it comes out — is it misogynistic or feminist? It wasn’t a punishment ever inflicted on men. It was a punishment directed at women to break their pride. And Cersei is defined by her pride.

This seems to contradict some folks' claims that we were supposed to enjoy this scene of evil Cersei being punished.

A humiliating walk with a character that falls 3 times is much too significant to mean nothing.

I noticed this too. I think it's just a little joke by GRRM. Cersei's sufferings are akin to those of Jesus, in her own mind.

[Dragons Dancing]

Mod:

Just to clarify, for those in doubt or new to the board - suggestions that someone - yes, even a fictional someone - be raped, tortured, maimed, castrated, genitally mutilated, and general misogynist ramblings, graphically gratuitous advocacies of violence and cruelty, etc, will be deleted and their perpetrators warned and eventually banned if unremitting.

Consider the guideline to be: What Would Eddard Stark Do?

I recognize that it may be difficult for some to discuss instances of torture, misogyny, etc, in the books without advocating and reveling in it in a tasteless manner in this forum. If you find yourself in this difficulty, I recommend trying harder.

Thank you for this. Torture of human by humans should NEVER be sanctioned as acceptable and when it occurs we should not relish it no matter how dispicable the villan.

[nara]

I never thought i would feel pity for cersei till this happened :(

100% agree. She's a terrible person and deserves to die, but I think that many of the characters have done equally terrible things and not faced this type of punishment. Very misogynistic too, but I think that's the culture, not the author.

Yes, exactly. It was SO LONG that it felt like GRRM was getting off on it.

I don't think that's true. Instead, I think he was showing a transformation in Cersei, so he went into detail to be able to show her thoughts and make us feel something for the character. I think that many people would agree that the AFFC chapters with Cersei's POV are the worst-written in the series, and he was trying to make up for that fact and give her some real depth. In my opinion, he succeeded.

First of all I just want to say that me being not a big fan of the Brienne and Jaime thing more than just a buddy cop/Disney movie style friendship I was more than a little disapointed that Jaime wasn't there to rescue Cersei.

I read half a page of what happened to her and then had to get up walk around listening to music before I could go back into what was happening to Cersei. It shook me and made me Nerd!Rage at what was going down. (Being the only Cersei fan boy in existance.)

But at the same time I actually understand what Martin was doing here with it.

For years people were like "God do I hate Cersei!" or "I wish that bitch just dies!" even in the TV show people where like "I hope the Dorthraki rapes that bitch hard" (Yeah people said that)

But in this George gave people what they wanted, but at a price ... People wanted her to suffer and she has in a truely horrible way ... but now fans have to live with what they wanted.

In a way Martin is invocking the old Stark principle. "The man who passes the sentence must swing the sword. And if he cannot then maybe the accused deserves his life after all."

People who wished horrible things on Cersei got what they wanted, but now they must swing the sword AKA read the downfall. So if someone who hated Cersei reads what happens to her and balks, maybe she really didn't deserve what she got.

I agree that I was very disappointed in Jaime not coming to help her. Even if he ended their relationship right afterwards, not responding to her or even feeling any guilt about leaving her to die was, in my opinion, the worst thing he's done in the whole series (including throwing Bran from a window) because he did to someone he said he loved. I do prefer him and Brienne as buddies more than lovers. However, I do think Jaime needs to learn the difference between sex and love...

I really liked your parallel to swinging the sword. I think it applies to Theon too. Lots of people were furious with him, but he didn't deserve the torture he's gotten...

[Chirios]

100% agree. She's a terrible person and deserves to die, but I think that many of the characters have done equally terrible things and not faced this type of punishment. Very misogynistic too, but I think that's the culture, not the author.

They only get their heads chopped off, see their friends die, get betrayed by people who love them, lose everything and everyone they have ever loved simply because they were trying to do a duty that they never asked for in the first place.

Some get tortured, flayed, and gelded over a matter of months to the point where they have honestly lost all sense of self.

Some people have to deal with the death of one son, the imprisonment of another, and then have to sit there and listen to the dick who killed him claim that someone turned into a werewolf and ripped his throat out.

Other characters are dragged from place to place a successions of increasingly psychotic men, are beaten by people who think that they are commoners, lose their families and get kidnapped by people who killed their friend for no reason other than because they were told to. They are forced to kill way too young and slowly find themselves drifting deeper into the darkness that is relying on violence to solve their problems. Other people are forced to hear increasingly elaborate tales about the betrayal and mass slaughter of the only family they've ever known.

Lowborn people have to starve because of a war that they never asked for so that the royal family gets to live fat, and hoist the royal debts onto their employers. Or they get taken from the only home they've ever known, dragged around by a person who says they're gonna spend the rest of their lives in the freezing north, then get stabbed through the stomach for the crime of happening to have had a broken leg.

Some people try and take said lowborn scum to the freezing north, then get murdered because some dick wanted to be a tough guy and kill people who he knew damned well weren't soldiers, simply because he could.

Other people have to spend decades living with the guilt that if they had just accepted the crown none of this would've happened.

Cersei sits in a dark room for a bit, then has to walk naked for a bit while people throw rotten food at her. Let's stop with the hyperbole, this is not nearly close to being the worst thing that happens in this series. It's not even in the top ten. It's not even in the top twenty. It's a minor punishment given to someone who frankly should spend the rest of her days in a dark hole or on a chopping block.

I agree that I was very disappointed in Jaime not coming to help her.

She's guilty. He knows it. What exactly has she done that should inspire any sort of loyalty from him?

[nara]

They only get their heads chopped off, see their friends die, get betrayed by people who love them, lose everything and everyone they have ever loved simply because they were trying to do a duty that they never asked for in the first place.

Some get tortured, flayed, and gelded over a matter of months to the point where they have honestly lost all sense of self.

Some people have to deal with the death of one son, the imprisonment of another, and then have to sit there and listen to the dick who killed him claim that someone turned into a werewolf and ripped his throat out.

Other characters are dragged from place to place a successions of increasingly psychotic men, are beaten by people who think that they are commoners, lose their families and get kidnapped by people who killed their friend for no reason other than because they were told to. They are forced to kill way too young and slowly find themselves drifting deeper into the darkness that is relying on violence to solve their problems. Other people are forced to hear increasingly elaborate tales about the betrayal and mass slaughter of the only family they've ever known.

Lowborn people have to starve because of a war that they never asked for so that the royal family gets to live fat, and hoist the royal debts onto their employers. Or they get taken from the only home they've ever known, dragged around by a person who says they're gonna spend the rest of their lives in the freezing north, then get stabbed through the stomach for the crime of happening to have had a broken leg.

Some people try and take said lowborn scum to the freezing north, then get murdered because some dick wanted to be a tough guy and kill people who he knew damned well weren't soldiers, simply because he could.

Other people have to spend decades living with the guilt that if they had just accepted the crown none of this would've happened.

Cersei sits in a dark room for a bit, then has to walk naked for a bit while people throw rotten food at her. Let's stop with the hyperbole, this is not nearly close to being the worst thing that happens in this series. It's not even in the top ten. It's not even in the top twenty. It's a minor punishment given to someone who frankly should spend the rest of her days in a dark hole or on a chopping block.

She's guilty. He knows it. What exactly has she done that should inspire any sort of loyalty from him?

I think that there are a lot of people in the books whose punishment is terrible compared to what they've done. Theon was one example I listed in my comments, but there are many examples. I think what makes this chapter stand out is that the rest of the characters are written in a more empathetic way in their POV's, so you connect with them even before they get their punishment. For me, this was the first time her character was written in a way that was multi-dimensional--the first time I connected with her--so I felt especially bad for her. You're right, she is still living and unmaimed, so she's far better off than many others, but I think the public shaming (similar to the flaying) is in some ways particularly malicious because of the drawn-out, sick pleasure of the people inflicting it.

I think the fact that she's been Jaime's lover for 25+ years and had 3 children with him should mean something to him. However, in my mind, it's less about her being deserving (because she's really not a very deserving person) and more about the person he aspires to be. He's not living up to the person he claims to want to be.

[Winter*Rose]

But Cersei's slut-shaming is disturbing, primarily because it's written as though it's righteous. It reads like something out of a Gorean book, in no small part because there was an almost titillating tone to it. It was almost as if it was written to appeal to the TAKE THAT WHORE! sensibilities of some of the readers.

I think it's entirely the opposite. I got the impression it was deliberetaly written to disturb readers rather than appease them. And that is actually the very essence of GRRM style: there are no real villains here, only human beings with their motivations and their nature. Once you're inside a POV's head, you see their experiences through their eyes, and there's no getting out of it. We all spent four books hating Cersei, but when the time for her punishment finally came, we thought "this is too much, this is disguting, stop it!". I never thought I would feel like that about her, but I did, and few writers can actually do that to a reader.

Same thing happened with Theon/Ramsay, as other people mentioned (I thought of all possible horrible ways for Theon to die when I read ACoK).

(In fact, taking from the way this goes, I'm already seeing fan-beloved Arya doing something absolutely horrible, disgusting and unforgivable in the forthcoming books) (I do hope I'm wrong, though).

[Lost Time]

I think it's entirely the opposite. I got the impression it was deliberetaly written to disturb readers rather than appease them. And that is actually the very essence of GRRM style: there are no real villains here, only human beings with their motivations and their nature. Once you're inside a POV's head, you see their experiences through their eyes, and there's no getting out of it. We all spent four books hating Cersei, but when the time for her punishment finally came, we thought "this is too much, this is disguting, stop it!". I never thought I would feel like that about her, but I did, and few writers can actually do that to a reader.

Same thing happened with Theon/Ramsay, as other people mentioned (I thought of all possible horrible ways for Theon to die when I read ACoK).

(In fact, taking from the way this goes, I'm already seeing fan-beloved Arya doing something absolutely horrible, disgusting and unforgivable in the forthcoming books) (I do hope I'm wrong, though).

I know I didn't feel that at all. The only thing I felt about this scene was how easy she got off comparatively and how she got exactly what she wanted in the end with her Frankenstein abomination pledging to kill her all her enemies.

Though I do wait anxiously for her to eventually pay for her crimes...

[Alexia]

I can't believe anyone thinks she got off easy. The moment I tried to project myself into Cersei's shoes, I started feeling nauseated and shaky.

[Raksha the Demon]

Thank you for this. Torture of human by humans should NEVER be sanctioned as acceptable and when it occurs we should not relish it no matter how dispicable the villan.

:agree: Much as I despise Cersei, I did not relish her walk of shame. It was a well-written chapter; but I would have been just as happy to see Cersei punished by a quick execution, which in my opinion she deserves. Ditto Ramsey Bolton; if GRRM gives us some horrific fate for him, I will be glad only that the character is dead. I get a bit nervous when I see some posters enthusiastically cheering the Ironborn for burning young women alive (and drowning the male prostitutes, or anyone else they see as disposable); and I'm getting tired of scenes where Melisandre burns some poor slob(s) alive. I would expect torture and pain to occur in this sort of world, but I don't want to see it every few chapters.

(and I don't want Ramsey Bolton to be torn apart by his dogs; the dogs might get sick; and they were decent enough to Theon, it's not their fault that Bolton trained them to track those poor girls he hunted)

I suppose that Ramsey Bolton might meet some icky fate; if so, I can only hope it happens off-camera. I just want him dead, skip the squick, please.

[Raksha the Demon]

I think it's entirely the opposite. I got the impression it was deliberetaly written to disturb readers rather than appease them. And that is actually the very essence of GRRM style: there are no real villains here, only human beings with their motivations and their nature. Once you're inside a POV's head, you see their experiences through their eyes, and there's no getting out of it. We all spent four books hating Cersei, but when the time for her punishment finally came, we thought "this is too much, this is disguting, stop it!". I never thought I would feel like that about her, but I did, and few writers can actually do that to a reader.

Same thing happened with Theon/Ramsay, as other people mentioned (I thought of all possible horrible ways for Theon to die when I read ACoK).

(In fact, taking from the way this goes, I'm already seeing fan-beloved Arya doing something absolutely horrible, disgusting and unforgivable in the forthcoming books) (I do hope I'm wrong, though).

While I would have been just as happy to have Cersei walk to the executioner's block, I didn't think that her chapter in ADWD was too much - because, at the end of it all, Cersei is alive and relatively well, breathing, with all her faculties. That's more than can be said of Felyse Stokeworth. Or Mycah. Or Lady. And what about the Kettleblack guy Cersei convinced to join her plot to bring down Margaery - I don't think he's going to get out of jail anytime soon, and it was all Cersei's idea. Not that he was innocent, but Cersei had the greater guilt there, she corrupted the guy.

I feel sorry for Arya; I think she has become an increasingly ruthless killer; I blame it on having to learn to kill to survive, and the things she has seen and endured at too young an age; they have marked her and changed her and not for the better. I pity her, and blame the Lannisters and others, because Arya is still a child, she is not making the decision to train as an assassin as an adult, and hence, for me, some of the responsibility for Arya's new life and choices is not her own.

[Envie]

Now that would have been fan service. Giving the fans what they wanted.

Instead, i'm thinking that Cersei may have been horrible, but she didn't deserve that.

Yes she did! That woman has caused no end of trouble and stupid senseless drama and deaths. Humiliation is probably the only one true punishment that would bring her low once and for all. Not even the threats of treason and incest or her son's death did that!

In the first two books, I really felt like Cersei was going to be the #1 Badass female of the story, but then she started making more and more stupid, power-hungry moves that caused nothing but more trouble for everyone and she started looking more and more ugly and shallow to me.

Fan service, maybe. Everyone loves to hate Cersei and hates to love her at the same time.

[Han Solo]

I can't believe anyone thinks she got off easy. The moment I tried to project myself into Cersei's shoes, I started feeling nauseated and shaky.

I think the point is that Cersei's experience, while completely humiliating and degrading, really does not compare to the atrocities she has committed. But then again, by the time I got to this chapter, pretty much all my sympathy had already been used up with Theon, and Cersei just annoys me in general anyway. I think the only thing that could make me remotely care for Cersei's character at this point would be possible future Sansa/Cersei interaction. The juxtaposition in character would be interesting.

[The Smelly Peasant]

Yep - awful for Cersie (and all those readers who seem to relate to her).

[Guest]

Like many here I wanted to see Cersei brought low, maybe even executed. But not for crimes of adultery, and not this Scarlet Letter treatment. What hogwash. Some of the people on this thread who condemn her for being guilty of what the Faith are charging her with might want think about that a bit more. Were you clutching your pearls when Robert was making ten thousand bastards all across the 7 Kingdoms?

She should be punished for killing a list of innocents that stretches back to Book 1, but whom she chose to love and whom she has sex with should not be her crime here. George is making you hold two contradictory ideas in your head at the same time: she's guilty of murder but not guilty of sleepin' around with the kingsguard. If this chapter was "justice" you should be disappointed she's now brainwashed into thinking the latter.

[nukrow]

I remember reading about a real life church trial back in 1100 England. If you violated any of the sins in the Bible you fell under church law. This one girl was what you would call a fun date? A social butterfly?

Anyway for punishment, the priests made her strip and run around the church 3 times while the whole congregation watched. It's not really a torture but if they gave her the option of execution, she might have took it. Everyone she knew in the whole would would've been in the congregation, parents, grand parents, aunts, etc.

[Misanthrope]

Who washere it that predicted that GRRM would sexualize Cersei's humiliation? Because, yeah, that was beyond creepy.

I don't buy into the general misogyny accusations that people lob at the series, because I don't think they're founded on the whole. But Cersei's slut-shaming is disturbing, primarily because it's written as though it's righteous. It reads like something out of a Gorean book, in no small part because there was an almost titillating tone to it. It was almost as if it was written to appeal to the TAKE THAT WHORE! sensibilities of some of the readers.

There are a thousand and one horrible punishments that Cersei would justly deserve, but I question the choice to subject her to sexual humiliation. Is that the only "just" punishment he can conceive of for her? Is this what she deserves because she's a bitch? Are we supposed to cheer that she's being demeaned as the worthless whore she is?

This, coupled with events of previous books and notably GRRM saying Robert is a "pretty good guy" despite raping Cersei, inclines me more and more to include that he has a bizarre, inexplicable fixation with sexually tormenting and degrading this particular character. And it really leaves a bitter aftertaste in my mouth.

Agreed, it would have sufficed if she was executed. I can't stand the character but her humiliation seemed gratuitious.

[serbrc]

Like many here I wanted to see Cersei brought low, maybe even executed. But not for crimes of adultery, and not this Scarlet Letter treatment. What hogwash. Some of the people on this thread who condemn her for being guilty of what the Faith are charging her with might want think about that a bit more. Were you clutching your pearls when Robert was making ten thousand bastards all across the 7 Kingdoms?

She should be punished for killing a list of innocents that stretches back to Book 1, but whom she chose to love and whom she has sex with should not be her crime here. George is making you hold two contradictory ideas in your head at the same time: she's guilty of murder but not guilty of sleepin' around with the kingsguard. If this chapter was "justice" you should be disappointed she's now brainwashed into thinking the latter.

Well, a lot of people cheat on their taxes now and then, and I don't think they deserve life in prison. But I'm perfectly content that Al Capone was sent to Alcatraz for tax evasion. I think this is a similar situation.

Cersei's walk of shame was a punishment meted out to an evil, murderous person. It might not have been justice, since I don't think anyone here suggests that kind of humiliation just for sleeping around, but it was punishment, and she heartily deserved a punishment.

From a reader's perspective, therefore, I felt like she deserved the walk itself, for the list of murders you've mentioned. While I don't agree that the "crimes" she was being punished for are real crimes, I have no trouble with her being mistreated and can think of it as a satisfying comeuppance.

[Chirios]

Agreed, it would have sufficed if she was executed. I can't stand the character but her humiliation seemed gratuitious.

It really wasn't. Cersei would never back down, she needed to be humiliated, she needed to be completely and utterly shamed so that she would be broken and wouldn't cause trouble for Kevan, otherwise he'd be forced to eventually kill her. It was cruel yes, but not gratuitous. Of course it didn't work, but Kevan doesn't know that.