[ADwD Spoilers] Cersei

[evanesco75]

The Lost Lord: the High Septon is still around and he still has his army ofn the Faith. It seemed to me that Kevan was playing him cautiously too. And Cersei doesn't exactly inspire affection among the Tyrells, so why would they support her with their men?

I think the Trial will happen, and she'll be exonarated. It's necessary for the smallfolk too, at this point. Given how much they seem, to loathe her, I mean.

[Chirios]

Wow. People really don't like this scene. From my point of view it wasn't that big a deal, she walked around naked and got some shit thrown at her. Don't much care about it really.

[Mark3]

Before we feel sorry for Cersei, let's remember some of her enormities, just from FEAST/DANCE: She plots the death of Lollys's baby because he was named after Tyrion; she condones the murder of innocent dwarves so long as it might lead to the death of Tyrion; she gives Landy Tanda over to her pet torturer for the crime of failing to execute one of her own schemes; she gives a group of puppeteers over to torture and death because they performed a play that insults House Lannister; she plots to have her son's young bride executed - with a handful of her teenage cousins and innocent court retainers thrown into the mix, to make the scheme more convincing; she has the High Septon murdered; she holds the people of the Reach hostage against the threat of the Ironborn so she can get rid of the Tyrells; she plots the murder of young and innocent Trystane Martell - who is betrothed to her daughter.

That's off the top of my head. She has become a complete monster. What happens to her is nothing in comparison with her crimes.

[evanesco75]

Which means her true comeuppance is yet to... come.

I think GRRM wanted us to see that not all characters are redeemable with this one. Where Jaime changed post hand, Cersei didn't learn a damned thing. That brief moment of remorse came at her lowest, weakest point and was promptly forgotten.

She won't learn or change, it seems. And she will meet her true downfall sometime.

[Alexia]

I don't think Cersei did anything monstrous in plotting to have Margaery disgraced and executed. Margaery killed Cersei's son, remember? While smiling sweetly at Cersei and pretending to be this sweet innocent young thing. Cersei's problem is that she went about Margaery's removal in an exceedingly stupid manner.

Framing the cousins and the unfortunate knights is just as evil as framing innocent Sansa Stark (a child) and Tyrion Lannister.

[jack88]

Before we feel sorry for Cersei, let's remember some of her enormities, just from FEAST/DANCE: She plots the death of Lollys's baby because he was named after Tyrion; she condones the murder of innocent dwarves so long as it might lead to the death of Tyrion; she gives Landy Tanda over to her pet torturer for the crime of failing to execute one of her own schemes; she gives a group of puppeteers over to torture and death because they performed a play that insults House Lannister; she plots to have her son's young bride executed - with a handful of her teenage cousins and innocent court retainers thrown into the mix, to make the scheme more convincing; she has the High Septon murdered; she holds the people of the Reach hostage against the threat of the Ironborn so she can get rid of the Tyrells; she plots the murder of young and innocent Trystane Martell - who is betrothed to her daughter.

That's off the top of my head. She has become a complete monster. What happens to her is nothing in comparison with her crimes.

People feel sorry for her? I personally thought being called a saggy, evil brotherfucker was amazing. I laughed a lot during that chapter.

[Chirios]

I don't think Cersei did anything monstrous in plotting to have Margaery disgraced and executed. Margaery killed Cersei's son, remember?

Which Cersei doesn't know. We shouldn't give credit where it isn't due.

[Raksha the Demon]

Is there proof that Margaery was complicit in Joffrey's assasination? I haven't read all of ADWD (well, haven't read most of it); but I don't think it had ever been specified or as strongly implied as her grandmother's involvement. And what about Cersei's other crimes: having innocent children murdered, tolerating her son's abuse of Sansa, throwing Lady Falyse to her pet torturer for...well, medical torture (Qyburn is the Dr. Mengele of Westeros), contributing to the death of her husband and king, and many other crimes and misdemeanors.

Yes, Cersei suffered during her walk of shame. But the sentence was humiliation, not death. Cersei has her life and all her faculties, which is more than most of her victims have.

[Vikingkingq]

The whole point of that episode was how non-titillating it was - Cersei's been stripped of her glamor as well as her clothes. The people laughed at her, joked about how saggy and paunchy she's getting, etc. It's the opposite of the Lady Godiva scenario.

As for those who think she'll be more subtle in the future, you're missing the signs. Partway through the march, she starts outright hallucinating (in part due to lack of sleep). And then she's immediately informed that her unkillable eight foot tall murder machine is now ready. Cersei's going to go on a revenge spree that'll make Aerys seem like a septon. No one's left to restrain her.

My prediction: Cersei sends FrankenGregor to kill all the Tyrells, but Tommen gets in the way when Gregorstein swings at Margaery. Cue total breakdown.

[moffy]

I thought it was meant to evoke pity - with a parallel in some way to the Via Dolorosa - the way the two references to her falling were written put me in mind of the Bible.

[Alexia]

Which Cersei doesn't know. We shouldn't give credit where it isn't due.

She suspects. Actually, frequently she's close but not quite there -- at one point, she thinks that the Tyrells are probably sheltering her son's murderers (Sansa and Tyrion) in Highgarden. At another point she's furious because she thinks Margaery should be grieving for Joffrey. Alas, she lacks the capacity to connect the dots but she is on the right trail.

And she's right that the Tyrells shouldn't be trusted. Kevan says that he finally understands why she hates them so much after he had to deal with them.

[Leold]

Before we feel sorry for Cersei, let's remember some of her enormities, just from FEAST/DANCE: She plots the death of Lollys's baby because he was named after Tyrion; she condones the murder of innocent dwarves so long as it might lead to the death of Tyrion; she gives Landy Tanda over to her pet torturer for the crime of failing to execute one of her own schemes; she gives a group of puppeteers over to torture and death because they performed a play that insults House Lannister; she plots to have her son's young bride executed - with a handful of her teenage cousins and innocent court retainers thrown into the mix, to make the scheme more convincing; she has the High Septon murdered; she holds the people of the Reach hostage against the threat of the Ironborn so she can get rid of the Tyrells; she plots the murder of young and innocent Trystane Martell - who is betrothed to her daughter.

That's off the top of my head. She has become a complete monster. What happens to her is nothing in comparison with her crimes.

I agree with this. All her PoV thoughts and actions have ever convinced me of is that she's a horrible, horrible person who deserves much more than humiliation for her myriad crimes. I can't feel any remorse for her anymore, Tommen is who I feel sorry for as he had to have her as a mother. She also had a big part in making Joffrey into the cruel little monster he was and was even proud of what she'd shaped him to be. I really hope she doesn't get off scot free through ZombieGregor/Robert Strong because if there ever were characters that deserved to die it's her and Ramsay the most. I always wish that someone could come along and read her thoughts and discover what a false, terrible person she is.

[noobilly]

I find it rather strange if anyone were to say that the Cersei naked walk was supposed to be titillating. It was, well, not particularly satisfying, although she deserved it. You could feel the depressive nature of it, and although she deserved it, you felt sorry for her in a way too.

In fact, it's quite like when Joff died.

[Mark Antony]

The whole point of that episode was how non-titillating it was - Cersei's been stripped of her glamor as well as her clothes. The people laughed at her, joked about how saggy and paunchy she's getting, etc. It's the opposite of the Lady Godiva scenario.

As for those who think she'll be more subtle in the future, you're missing the signs. Partway through the march, she starts outright hallucinating (in part due to lack of sleep). And then she's immediately informed that her unkillable eight foot tall murder machine is now ready. Cersei's going to go on a revenge spree that'll make Aerys seem like a septon. No one's left to restrain her.

My prediction: Cersei sends FrankenGregor to kill all the Tyrells, but Tommen gets in the way when Gregorstein swings at Margaery. Cue total breakdown.

wow that would be craziness.

[mcb]

I find it rather strange if anyone were to say that the Cersei naked walk was supposed to be titillating. It was, well, not particularly satisfying, although she deserved it. You could feel the depressive nature of it, and although she deserved it, you felt sorry for her in a way too.

In fact, it's quite like when Joff died.

Either-or: either "depressive", or "like when Joff died". That was actually fun.

[Peasant with No Story Arc]

Either-or: either "depressive", or "like when Joff died". That was actually fun.

Well, isn't there a difference between "I'm glad Joff is dead" and shouting "That's it. Choke! Choke, you little bastard!" as you read it? I feel like there's a parallel in that they're both ugly scenes you're not supposed to enjoy that depict awful things happening to villainous characters.

[Frumpus]

What happened to Cersei IMO is on equal level with what happened to Theon. It seems to me that GRRM likes Cersei too much to just simply kill her off like he's done with other villainous characters in the series, and he likely intends to keep her alive, at least until the end of the story.

[Alexia]

Well, isn't there a difference between "I'm glad Joff is dead" and shouting "That's it. Choke! Choke, you little bastard!" as you read it? I feel like there's a parallel in that they're both ugly scenes you're not supposed to enjoy that depict awful things happening to villainous characters.

Count me in for someone who was pleased to see Joffrey go. I didn't chant any "choke!"s at the book while reading, but I did uncork some virtual champagne.

Yes, GRRM wrote it to have a certain pathos (Cersei wailing, Tyrion thinking how young he was...) but Joffrey was just too despicable. And he got off easy, compared to Sansa, Robb, Arya, Ned, Catelyn, and all his other victims. If I were inclined to feel compassion, I would just remember his demand for Robb's head so he could make Sansa kiss it.

[mcb]

Well, isn't there a difference between "I'm glad Joff is dead" and shouting "That's it. Choke! Choke, you little bastard!" as you read it? I feel like there's a parallel in that they're both ugly scenes you're not supposed to enjoy that depict awful things happening to villainous characters.

If I wasn't supposed to enjoy it, then I clearly did it wrong.

[Peasant with No Story Arc]

If I wasn't supposed to enjoy it, then I clearly did it wrong.

I wouldn't ask anyone to have any sympathy for him or for Cersei. Nor do I have any problem with Joff choking to death or Cersei being forced to walk naked through the streets of King's Landing. I do see how either could be enjoyable to read. They're two of the worst people in the series. But I would disagree that Joff's death was written to be a triumphant scene or that the Cersei parade was meant to be titillating. Don't let me schoolmarm anyone, though. Enjoy your virtual champagne.