[ADwD Spoilers] Cersei

[Addien]

Are some posters seriously suggesting that that kind of emotional rape/torture would "work" to "tame" anyone, let alone Cersei?

[voodooqueen126]

I do understand that it's happened, but the thing is that GRRM's hate for her is so palpable, and the scene was so LONG, that it felt like it was meant to cause sadistic pleasure. It felt like he was getting off on demeaning her sexually. And that bothers me.

Oh, I wasn't suggesting that her punishment was more severe than her crimes. I'm saying that GRRM's route on this disturbs me, because it feels like it was written to evoke pleasure and laughter, and I have issues with encouraging readers to delight in the sexual humiliation of ANY character. There have been other scenes of sexual humiliation that were written in a very dark, gritty, non-fanservice way. I felt like the intent of this scene was very different, in part because of how much more loathing GRRM has for Cersei than for any other POV character.

Don't get me wrong, here: I think it would be entirely justifiable to draw and quarter Cersei. I think it would be justifiable to peel her skin off piece by piece. It's just the prolonged, sadistic sexual humiliation that rubs me the wrong way, particularly given the male reader base. I feel like he's encouraging delight in a woman being sexually humiliated in a way that he's never encouraged delight in a male being humiliated.

(Incidentally, it isn't "no big deal" to me. I would personally rather be physically tortured than sexually degraded. I'm not speaking for anyone other than myself on that, though, although I do know some women who would agree. This is magnified 1000x fold in an extremely misogynistic setting.)

In the middle ages the reason the female punishment for treason was being burnt alive rather than being hung drawn and quartered was because it allowed women to keep their modesty (because being burn't alive actually being completely covered in wood and clothed, rather than the theatrical little-bit-of-wood-at-the-feet that you see in movies.

From a slightly later period:

Observe Henry VIII could've had Anne Boleyn burnt alive but he mercifully allowed her to be beheaded, he could've had her brother and accused lovers hung drawn and quartered but he mercifully allowed them to be beheaded. He did not extend this mercy to Catherine Howards lover Francis Dereham.

Also Anne Askew, the only woman to have ever been tortured in the tower of London, was allowed to keep her shift on when she was being racked, whilst men were racked naked. Also torturing her so disgusted Anthony Kingston that he eventually refused so Wriothesley and Richard Rich had to torture her themselves.... So yeah the middle ages took female modesty pretty seriously

[Chirios]

Are some posters seriously suggesting that that kind of emotional rape/torture would "work" to "tame" anyone, let alone Cersei?

Again with the hyperbolic language. No, it wouldn't tame most people, it would break them. They'd be so utterly humiliated they'd break. Or everyone else would mock them and not take them seriously anymore. Cersei on the other hand is viciously prideful. She won't break, she won't bend, she'll die before she does.

[NIghtWolf]

I got the impression that we were supposed to feel at least pity for her; told from her POV it's hard not to, isn't it?

I hated Cersei, and I still do, but that was harsh...especially since all that she was guilty of for sure at this time was sleeping with 3 guys when Robert was already dead.

What on earth is that man going to want if she's found guilty of everything else? (not that that's likely with Qyburn's giant...)

I felt that we are supposed to feel that Cersei's punishment is far too much and thus get a better sense of this High Septon. He seems to lack that 'mercy' aspect of the faith.

[Visenya Vhagar]

Personally, I have hated Cersei since the first book. That chapter actually made me like her. If it was meant to pacify fans who dislike her, it definitely failed with me, because I ended up admiring her. The High Septon also came across as a misogynistic hypocritical asshole. I felt like the fact that it was so long actually conveyed how long it felt to her.

Cersei has done some terrible things in her time. She deserves to be punished for them. However, she did not deserve that, any more than Theon deserved to be castrated and flayed for what he's done. They both probably deserve to die--but they deserve quick death.

Personally, I think that the High Septon is going to learn in the next book that Cersei doesn't forgive, doesn't forget, and always keeps her promises. And unlike the other times, I will be cheering her on when he dies.

[Raksha the Demon]

I got the impression that we were supposed to feel at least pity for her; told from her POV it's hard not to, isn't it?

I hated Cersei, and I still do, but that was harsh...especially since all that she was guilty of for sure at this time was sleeping with 3 guys when Robert was already dead.

What on earth is that man going to want if she's found guilty of everything else? (not that that's likely with Qyburn's giant...)

I felt that we are supposed to feel that Cersei's punishment is far too much and thus get a better sense of this High Septon. He seems to lack that 'mercy' aspect of the faith.

As I have said before, Cersei may have been humiliated by her walk of shame, and endured some physical discomfort; but she was alive and in full possession of her faculties at the end of it. That's more than can be said of her victims - Felyse Stokeworth, the young children of Robert (and at least one of the mothers, the young prostitute; the other one Cersei arranged to be sent away to be sold into slavery in Essos I think). Cersei got off easy and will come out of this spitting more venom than before.

The Septon is a fanatic jerk; I rather hope he's taken down, rendered powerless, whatever...

[The Human Abstract]

Cersei has done some terrible things in her time. She deserves to be punished for them. However, she did not deserve that, any more than Theon deserved to be castrated and flayed for what he's done. They both probably deserve to die--but they deserve quick death.

Agree to disagree then.

I enjoyed her suffering immensely. And I enjoy the author not ending her, so I can bathe in her suffering all the more.

Her tears of anguish sustain me.

Yum.

[Awesome Starks]

Agree to disagree then.

I enjoyed her suffering immensely. And I enjoy the author not ending her, so I can bathe in her suffering all the more.

Her tears of anguish sustain me.

Yum.

Word Hate Hate Hate her sooooo much, and truth be told only her dying in the most sadistic way GRRM can think of will I ever feel something besides a burning hatred for Cersai thats associated with the character like glee that she suffered before she died.

[voodooqueen126]

Like many here I wanted to see Cersei brought low, maybe even executed. But not for crimes of adultery, and not this Scarlet Letter treatment. What hogwash. Some of the people on this thread who condemn her for being guilty of what the Faith are charging her with might want think about that a bit more. Were you clutching your pearls when Robert was making ten thousand bastards all across the 7 Kingdoms?

She should be punished for killing a list of innocents that stretches back to Book 1, but whom she chose to love and whom she has sex with should not be her crime here. George is making you hold two contradictory ideas in your head at the same time: she's guilty of murder but not guilty of sleepin' around with the kingsguard. If this chapter was "justice" you should be disappointed she's now brainwashed into thinking the latter.

Her adultery plunged the 7 Kingdoms into war, Robert's adultery left 16 women supporting bastards. Big difference.

A queen has only one job in the world: Provide an heir without a question of illegitimacy. Failure to do so can destroy a dynasty. It's pretty simple and she was so short sighted she failed to so.

[NoOne]

I did not find Cersei naked walk as that repulsive, it even seemed fitting, concerning the medieval setting and the nature of her crimes (sexual). I think it was very well done, from her pride, to the fall and determination.

Agreed, as were are talking about people in a setting we know to be very hostile and barbaric. The sentence from the clergy dealt with her crimes in the way of the "faith" and I felt completely plausable.

But to think Cersie will be tamed by this is IMO is just not going to happen!! This woman has no moral conscience at all (look to her hideous past deeds done to others and those she sent to Qyburn)and to me the only reason she is somewhat humble to Kevin is to lay low and plot her coming revenge.

[indiesque]

I wasn't too disturbed by Cersei's walk of shame, knowing that GRRM wanted to make us uncomfortable, but much more importantly show what a religious zealot the High Septon is. I took no issue with that chapter.

I don't buy into Kevan's opinion that this has humbled Cersei. She's batsh*t crazy, and I can't claim to like her or sympathise with her in the least... however, I'm not going to deny that she's not easily subdued. Her story about reaching into the cage to stroke the lion - she's rash and stupid, yes, but she's not without a strength and stubborness of her own. NOT the kind I admire, no, but she'll be fighting back.. I'm definitely not fooled as Kevan is :)

[Matarreyes]

merveilleux, on 13 July 2011 - 01:10 AM, said:

It's just the prolonged, sadistic sexual humiliation that rubs me the wrong way, particularly given the male reader base. I feel like he's encouraging delight in a woman being sexually humiliated in a way that he's never encouraged delight in a male being humiliated.

THIS x 100

I would not be so suspicious about the author´s intentions had he been more equal in his descriptions of Theon´s sexual torture, which is incidentally in the same book. GRRM is a fanboy writing for fanboys, going on very graphically about females and having all male sexual torture happen off-screen. How many viewers would have enjoyed a graphic account of Ramsay´s activities on Theon? I don´t think the number would be too high (guys and gals boths). How many viewers did enjoy what happened to Cersei? Less that I was initially afraid, if this thread is any indication, but still quite a number. And the fact that these who chose to revel in the scene have their "moral justification" right there ("she deserved it", "she had to be brought low") is all the more sickening.

[Andhaira]

That Cersei chapter was fantastic. I got a lot fo joy from her humiliation, and I feel most others did the same. To see her finally break in the end was icing on the cake.

I hope for more such scenes in the future. :thumbs up:

[fuelpagan]

Why would they hold her in a cell and confine her for fornication and not confine her for murder and incest? Does the High Septon care more about fornication than murder and incestuous kings ruling? What sense does it make to confine her for denying fornication but not to confine her for having the previous High Septon murdered?

You really think the High Septon is truly out for justice? I don't. He has the upper hand on Cersei and want to keep the upper hand by breaking her, but not completely. She let him reform his army to defend the faith in exchange for forgiving the gold debt. If he can keep her in some power and control the iron throne, he can fight the war he wants to fight.

Leaving Kevan in control is not good for the High Septon, just as it isn't good for Varys.

[Alia of Dune]

Count me in with those who did not get the idea that this was painted as something positive. I felt it was supposed to be profoundly disturbing, both for the character and for the reader.

I got the same impression, that this wasn't meant to make anyone giddy to see Cersei humiliated. I found the scene to be very hard, especially at the end when she did not make it all the way with her head held high. Even though she's not a popular character with most readers (to say the least for some), I think this scene made everyone empathize with her. It didn't feel at all like "HA! Finally getting it, you $$^&^%$#!!!", but it made you pity her and think that it was quite a cruel thing.

Now that would have been fan service. Giving the fans what they wanted.

Instead, i'm thinking that Cersei may have been horrible, but she didn't deserve that.

I think Cersei's walk had this exact purpose, to turn readers' feelings around like that. While some might have been waiting for a long time for such an event, in the end it offered no satisfaction and you feel for the character, instead of being glad because of the situation they landed in.

[Scotty J]

THIS x 100

I would not be so suspicious about the author´s intentions had he been more equal in his descriptions of Theon´s sexual torture, which is incidentally in the same book. GRRM is a fanboy writing for fanboys, going on very graphically about females and having all male sexual torture happen off-screen. How many viewers would have enjoyed a graphic account of Ramsay´s activities on Theon? I don´t think the number would be too high (guys and gals boths). How many viewers did enjoy what happened to Cersei? Less that I was initially afraid, if this thread is any indication, but still quite a number. And the fact that these who chose to revel in the scene have their "moral justification" right there ("she deserved it", "she had to be brought low") is all the more sickening.

It's just a book, man.. we're not condoning this in real life. Although, I'm one of the people who doesn't like what happened to her and wish she had just died instead.. but how is that really any better?

[Hotpie Targaryen]

I personally didn't take any delight in Cersei's walk of shame. Did I feel it was deserved? Absolutely. Did I feel sympathy for her while she was doing it? Absolutely. Did I feel like it was a great example of GRRM's writing? Absolutely.

In the exact same way as Theon's chapters, in fact. Theon and Cersei are both despicable characters. They've both done terrible things and in my not-so-humble opinion, they both deserve to die for their crimes. And yet Martin's writing made me (to a degree) root for these characters. I was happy that Theon found some sort of redemption (rescuing Jeyne Poole). I would have been happy had Cersei found the same.

I certainly don't feel like Cersei's chapter was worse than Theon's. Just the opposite in fact. I found what Theon went through to be far worse than what Cersei endured.

[Lady Caek]

It's just a book, man.. we're not condoning this in real life. Although, I'm one of the people who doesn't like what happened to her and wish she had just died instead.. but how is that really any better?

I mostly have to agree with your statement. I find it rather odd (for lack of a better word) that many people are up in arms over what happened to a fictional character in a work of art. There are many questionable events that have happened in this book, some worse than others, but we all have to remember that this is a work of fiction. While it might be hard for some people to read we all have to keep the "fiction" in our heads. In a way this kind of reminds me of the Christian protestors at Eminem concerts. Everyone is up in arms over this controversial white rapper and think that he is brainwashing children into doing horrible things when in truth, he is not. (Mayhaps this is a bad example but this thread reminded me of this.)

I found this chapter not easy to read but not hard either. I felt like I left my emotions for her back in the previous chapter. I am neither sympathetic for her or cheering that she was paraded around. I feel as though GRRM has indeed captured what extreme religion was like back then if that time and place did actually exist. Things were not as they are now and people were of a smaller view point on women than they are now. That is the only reality I see in this chapter or in this series for that matter. GRRM did a very good job with this chapter and it was very well written and explained a lot about Cersei. It showed her as a Queen but when she runs at the end it showed how vulnerable as a person she really is.

[littlespider]

THIS x 100

I would not be so suspicious about the author´s intentions had he been more equal in his descriptions of Theon´s sexual torture, which is incidentally in the same book. GRRM is a fanboy writing for fanboys, going on very graphically about females and having all male sexual torture happen off-screen. How many viewers would have enjoyed a graphic account of Ramsay´s activities on Theon? I don´t think the number would be too high (guys and gals boths). How many viewers did enjoy what happened to Cersei? Less that I was initially afraid, if this thread is any indication, but still quite a number. And the fact that these who chose to revel in the scene have their "moral justification" right there ("she deserved it", "she had to be brought low") is all the more sickening.

Completely and 100% agree. If we had seen the mutilation and humiliation of Theon as up close as we had that of Cersei, I can guarantee that there would be a huge outcry about it, and not one remotely involving things like "Yeah! Baby-killing motherfvcker finally got what was coming!"

But, I thought the chapter was triumphantly written, in that it reversed the complete and utter flatness of Cersei in aFfC. It was psychologically rich and interesting, and completely and utterly reversed my position on the character. I really, really hope that this was most of George's point in writing the chapter.

And I have never, before that moment, been sympathetic to Cersei. But you know what? Now I am. And I'm rooting for her all the way, though this is going to be a problem because I'm also rooting for the Starks.

"It is a wise woman who knows her place." Indeed.

Team Cersei all the way!

I mostly have to agree with your statement. I find it rather odd (for lack of a better word) that many people are up in arms over what happened to a fictional character in a work of art. There are many questionable events that have happened in this book, some worse than others, but we all have to remember that this is a work of fiction. While it might be hard for some people to read we all have to keep the "fiction" in our heads. In a way this kind of reminds me of the Christian protestors at Eminem concerts. Everyone is up in arms over this controversial white rapper and think that he is brainwashing children into doing horrible things when in truth, he is not. (Mayhaps this is a bad example but this thread reminded me of this.)

I think this is a drastic oversimplification of the potential for this discussion. Fiction (among many other art forms) gives us a platform to discuss the ethical implications of gender-based hatred, of sexual violence, of vengeance and justice. To dismiss it because "it's just a book" or because "it's fiction" is to shut down any possibility of this discussion. If you don't want to take part in the discussion, then don't take part.

Yes, I am on a high horse today.

[Alexia]

But, I thought the chapter was triumphantly written, in that it reversed the complete and utter flatness of Cersei in aFfC. It was psychologically rich and interesting, and completely and utterly reversed my position on the character. I really, really hope that this was most of George's point in writing the chapter.

I love Cersei; she was one of my favorite characters in books 1-3. I always saw her as short-sighted and overly proud and impulsive, but I was really disappointed by some of her actions in AFFC. For example: consistent with earlier Cersei: sending Falyse's husband to kill Bronn. Inconsistent with earlier Cersei: turning Falyse over to Qyburn, effectively handing Stokeworth to Bronn.

So what I am hoping is that GRRM accomplished what he set out to have happen over the course of the gap which was to have Cersei make a hash of things in KL. And now, we get the real Cersei back with all her low cunning. I want to see her snatch up Tommen and make a run for the Rock. I want to see her publicly denounce Margaery, have the Sept of Baelor burnt to the ground with wildfire and the High Septon and those septas inside, to raise an army and march on KL. I want to see her rain some Lannister fire and blood down on the Tyrells, who are overdue for a good comeuppance.

Please, let this be the return of the old Cersei. Because she was one of the best non-POV characters in the first two books.