[ADwD Spoilers] Cersei

[Alexia]

And I definitely think that he thought of marriage as a buy/sell transaction,

Not really, he made himself a love match. However, he thought of his children in terms of their value to House Lannister.

Like he was trying to say, "Even the "purest" marriage -- a love-match -- is really just whoring, in the end."

??? No, he was angry because he didn't believe it was a love match. He thought Tysha was a gold digger and saw shadows of his father's control by the low born mistress. And tbh, I tend to agree with Tywin's perception. A starving 13-year old girl falls in love on first sight with a hideous dwarf? Nope. I don't think she was calculating about it in the way that Shae was, but I've no doubt that her motivations were security, et al.

But the thing that throws me for a loop in terms of that is how then he becomes so insistent that Tyrion not be with whores.

He's a little scornful of Tyrion's public whoremongering, but he doesn't actually forbid it until Tyrion threatened to rape and otherwise torture Tommen over one. I felt like his reasoning was fairly sound. Tywin doesn't believe that Tyrion knows how to handle prostitutes and is embarrassed by how public he was with his whoremongering, but he doesn't actually do anything besides the occasional snide remark until Tyrion crosses a very distinct line.

[THE LIL WARRIOR ARRY]

Thank you!!! I Didn't fee sorry for her at all. She tortured, killed, abused many people. Her persona was similar to genocidal dictator. I'm sure many will say that she didn't deserve to be treated the way she treated others, but this is during the Middle Ages! Come on there was torture all around during these time!! Why should she get off easy!!

[Ser Joe the Unknighted]

Being shaved and paraded naked is something that did happen to women for various crimes including adultery. Yes, medieval Europe is full of misogyny, blame the bible for that.

As for her punishment, is being paraded naked in public really THAT bad considering the things she's done?

It's no more that a slap on the wrist compared to what some poor sods in these books have had to suffer - think of poor innocent Lollys for a start, and she never did harm to no one.

The bible was a product of the era it was written in abd the middle ages were a product of christianity crossed with a fractured land divided after the fall of the Roman empire.

[rue721]

??? No, he was angry because he didn't believe it was a love match. He thought Tysha was a gold digger and saw shadows of his father's control by the low born mistress. And tbh, I tend to agree with Tywin's perception. A starving 13-year old girl falls in love on first sight with a hideous dwarf? Nope. I don't think she was calculating about it in the way that Shae was, but I've no doubt that her motivations were security, et al.

Not to derail but -- I don't mean that Tywin wasn't right that it wasn't an actual love match (I agree that probably she wasn't completely insensible of the fact that Tyrion was a lord's son -- how could she be? *Why* would she be?), it's that he made sure that *Tyrion* had his face rubbed in the idea that a love-match was basically impossible. I mean, Tywin could have just bought off the girl in order to stick by Tyrion and make him happy/keep him neutralized, or Tywin could have given her X dragons to just slink away. It wasn't about exposing Tysha for what she was, in my opinion, Tywin wanted to make a *public* statement about marriage and the possibility of love (maybe w/r/t Tyrion specifically, maybe just as a general statement?). I don't really understand Tywin's reasoning, though, since he does publicly acknowledge Tyrion as his son -- how did he think that making such a big deal about how his deformed 13-year-old, who is the Queen's brother at this point and possibly already uncle to the future king, is a cruel rapist for whom love is impossible, would be a good idea? Like some people have said, I guess he was working on his own issues, but honestly, I don't get it. That seems counterproductive, and also *very* controlling.

He's a little scornful of Tyrion's public whoremongering, but he doesn't actually forbid it until Tyrion threatened to rape and otherwise torture Tommen over one. I felt like his reasoning was fairly sound. Tywin doesn't believe that Tyrion knows how to handle prostitutes and is embarrassed by how public he was with his whoremongering, but he doesn't actually do anything besides the occasional snide remark until Tyrion crosses a very distinct line.

True, that total ban on whores was in response to Tyrion's disgusting threats toward Tommen -- thanks, totally forgot! Even before that, though, he'd banned Tyrion from bringing Shae into the Keep. I don't really understand why it would be embarrassing for the family for Tyrion to keep a mistress? To me, that seems like the better of two evils -- at least Shae could keep him busy/contained, and if she bore him a bastard, wouldn't that actually be a good thing in terms of Tyrion's marriage prospects? I would think Tyrion having a non-dwarf child would skyrocket his marriage value. Did he honestly think Shae would soak Tyrion, considering Shae *already* soaks Tyrion for gold and Tywin is nevertheless completely open-handed with Tyrion as far as money goes? I guess Shae had to be kept away because Tyrion doesn't know how to act appropriately with whores, but honestly, he doesn't act appropriately a lot of the time, and Tywin doesn't exactly hide him away otherwise. Or maybe he does? Well, anyway, not to totally derail. Just still very confused about the whole idea of "whores" and who is a whore and what your relationship with a whore is "supposed" to be and what that means about relationships in general, etc. I'd make it a thread, but doubt that would be a very popular topic, lol.

ETA:

To tie it more into the subject of the thread, how *is* Cersei a whore, and how is she not? The object of the Walk was obviously to shame her in a way that makes her seem like a whore, with her body/sexuality up for grabs. Did that turn her into a whore? To me, the process of turning Cersei from a queen into a "whore" seems basically like the process of turning Tysha from a wife into a "whore," (esp since Cersei was also with Robert because he was a king -- that wasn't a love-match, either) but are those instances really "the same"? I guess that's another reason why I wonder what Tywin's purpose in what he did to Tysha/Tyrion was.

[Alexia]

It wasn't about exposing Tysha for what she was, in my opinion, Tywin wanted to make a *public* statement about marriage and the possibility of love (maybe w/r/t Tyrion specifically, maybe just as a general statement?).

I disagree. Tywin, after all, had been in a loving marriage. It was about drawing class lines between Lannisters and low born, it was a fear of his son bringing mockery down on House Lannister in the same ways that his father did. Had Tywin not been the son of Tytos Lannister, I do not believe it would ever have happened. Someone said in another thread, and I agree, that the punishment sounded like something Tywin dreamed up while romanticizing about how he would take revenge on Tytos' mistress after his father died -- only by the time Tytos died, Tywin had the sense to do it in a more socially acceptable way. Tysha was a different matter, she served as a proxy for his unbridled vengeance on the mistress (with things like a Lannister being worth more).

I think that Tywin genuinely believes that Tyrion is unlovable and that no woman would ever be genuinely attracted to him. I'm not sure that Tyrion is capable of fathering children, at this point in time it seems like he should have quite a few (even Harry's got two by now and he's years younger!). And really, it isn't going to help Tyrion's marriage value. Another poster made a fairly decent point a long time ago that if his children aren't dwarfs, nobody is going to believe that his lady wife was faithful to him.

True, that total ban on whores was in response to Tyrion's disgusting threats toward Tommen -- thanks, totally forgot! Even before that, though, he'd banned Tyrion from bringing Shae into the Keep. I don't really understand why it would be embarrassing for the family for Tyrion to keep a mistress?

That is what Tytos did, remember? I understood his reasoning perfectly. He didn't want Tyrion to become attached to a whore or raise one above her place. He wanted him to leave Shae behind and quietly patronize Chataya's (which would have prevented a lot of Tyrion's later problems, let us not forget). The thing is that Tywin is actually correct in some of this. Tyrion doesn't know how to handle whores, he likes to believe what he's paid them to say, and it caused him untold problems.

I don't think Tywin would have objected to Tyrion taking a highborn mistress (or some lord's bastard daughter) and having a semi-discreet affair. The problem, IMO, comes from raising a whore (which is explicitly a monetary relationship) to a recognized mistress. Which I don't think is all that horrendous in the setting, just look at Ellaria Sand, but because of Tywin's own baggage with Tytos and that unnamed mistress it is absolutely anathema to him.

And really, how well do you think Shae would have done in the Red Keep? She was already trying to put on airs with Sansa, who stood far above her. Tyrion thought that everyone would know that she was not truly a lady. Varys wondered what the hell Tyrion saw in her. Shae would have caused untold problems for Tyrion's reputation had he kept her as an official mistress. Perhaps without the Tysha incident he would have had better taste in women.

[Sharlie]

Cersei was punished. She was humiliated. She was forced to walk naked to the Red Keep while people yelled and threw things at her. I really don't see this as "sexual humiliation".

It certainly is a humiliation, a complete loss of any kind of royal dignity. But seriously, how is this sexual? Was she raped on the way to the keep while the people of King's Landing watched? No. She was just naked. Walking.

Nudity does NOT equal sexuality.

Walking naked and being called a whore while people throw things at someone is a stripping of their dignity, the fact that Cersei finds so much of her dignity and power in her sexuality, does not equate this with rape or some other kind of sexual abuse. I would have found that punishment a little too harsh for her.

As it is, I think she got exactly what she deserved, and I can't wait to see how she reacts to it now that Kevan is dead!!

[rue721]

Hey, Alexia, I replied to your posts in the "Tyrion and the Lannisters" thread, because I ended up going on and on and it was all wayyyyyyy too Tywin/Tyrion-centric for the "Cersei" thread.

[Tagganaro]

The only way Cersei would get what she deserved would be if the Sept could just send her down to Qyburn to be experimented on. That was just brutal behavior, especially when she thinks about her trusting servant and the way she mistreats Lady Tanda. The walk wasn't nearly enough imo.

Not to mention that she gave birth to and raised a total monster in Joffrey and began all the business that got her in trouble with the High Septon in the first place.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

LOL. Why, yes, I guess there *could* be a perfectly sensible and pragmatic explanation. :P

In my opinion, Jaime is a "purer" soul than his brother or sister because he's made a little shell for that soul and hidden it away inside, where it's been kept relatively untouched -- not because there's something intrinsically "better" about his soul.

Hmmm. Without getting into the qualities of people's souls, I will say that it speaks well for his character that he can take his degradation and turn it into a vehicle for self-improvement. Neither of his siblings could do that. And his choice to take on the gold cloak may have been his (rather wise, it seems) tactic for surviving the insanity of being a Lannister. I think it speaks well of him that he took that direction instead of the much more self-aggrandizing possibilities, and that part of him is standing him in better stead now. Sadly, I think he's doomed to die heroically in spite of himself.

But I still need to re-read FfC, because honestly I don't remember it at all, so I can't give too many specifics :P.

You know, me too, but I've started at ACoK, b/c I feel like I've forgotten more than I remember.

I see it differently -- I think that Martin does a good job of showing the way the world degrades a person.*** If a person can't be degraded, he dies. If a person can be degraded, he lives...in a degraded state.

You know that Hemingway quote? "The world breaks everyone and afterward many are strong in the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially. If you are none of these you can be sure it will kill you too but there will be no special hurry." That's what your statement makes me think of. I guess it is a pretty universal truism, that if you don't let the world break you, you can't survive in it... though I have hopes for Jon Snow, Brienne, Arya, Dany, hell, even crusty old Stannis... they're not broken yet.

I don't think the point is that the bad guy wins, or you've got to be a bad guy to win. The more cynical and hardened people become, the unhappier and more alienated they become, too. I think the point is: is surviving winning? Is it better to die with idealism or to live long enough to become a monster?

The problem is that the game of thrones is an abyss, and the abyss gazes also into you if you play too long. I think Ned Stark could have lived his life out in Winterfell without being broken or dying horribly, if only things had gone slightly differently. The books take place in a crucible where it seems that only the most dangerous people survive. I guess the question is, can you be dangerous and honorable at the same time? Barristan Selmy! He manages it, though he is a sad old man who is full of regret.

Cersei burns very hot and has a lot of emotion, so it was easy for the world to get to her and for her to become corrupted, imo. I don't think that's necessarily *worse* though, then Jaime going into a state of emotional living death in order to not become so corrupted, or out of fear of corruption.

He's not like that anymore, though, which is why he is so attached to Brienne. She gives him something to model up to, which is why I hope she doesn't wind up betraying him. The end of that chapter certainly made it seem like she was tricking him into going off to Lady Stoneheart. Ugh.

Don't you have to buy honor with blood? As in, pay for it with your life, and/or the lives of those who love you?

In trying times, maybe. A less cynical view would be that you buy it with wisdom, compassion, and integrity, which might cost you blood when you have to fight for it.

And what's the difference, do you think, between honor and respect? Or what's the connection between them, anyway? How does a person earn honor? Or do you start out with X amount of honor and all you can hope for is that it won't be taken away?

You start out with your family's reputation and you can go up or down from there. I think respect and honor can intersect or exist separately. People respect Gregor Clegane's fighting ability but he has no honor. People might respect you for having honor, or they might see it as a weakness to be exploited. It depends on if you are also clever and strong.

Is the difference in terms of how you feel inside, or how people treat you? I think the difference between a whore and someone who isn't a whore is in how other people treat you, not how you feel.

If you're an ACTUAL whore who is literally taking gold for sex, then it's how people treat you. If you're a woman who is marrying as part of a transaction, then it depends on how you feel. Cersei felt whored by her marriage, but Catelyn did not seem to feel that way. Now, Tysha didn't feel like a whore until someone put actual coin in her pocket for sex, unless she is a more calculating character than has been described. So maybe you can "make" someone an actual whore by force, if you're a woman who has no cache or other "value" besides literally being used for sex. For someone like Cersei, it seems to be a state of mind.

Tywin thinks of everyone as a commodity. Cersei is beautiful and can make grandchildren who will be kings. That's a pretty valuable commodity. What is Tyrion's value? If he marries a crofter's daughter, he loses his value as a political match for House Lannister. Such arrogance on Tyrion's part must be punished. How could Tywin teach that lesson? Show Tyrion that all marriages are transactional, and forcibly turn his marriage to Tysha into a literal transaction. That is the core of Tywin's beliefs, and that's why he did what he did to Tyrion. Marry for love? What a waste!

Does she have any understanding of other people's pain?

She doesn't seem to. She cares only about people she sees as extensions of herself-- a total narcissist.

To tie it more into the subject of the thread, how *is* Cersei a whore, and how is she not? The object of the Walk was obviously to shame her in a way that makes her seem like a whore, with her body/sexuality up for grabs. Did that turn her into a whore? To me, the process of turning Cersei from a queen into a "whore" seems basically like the process of turning Tysha from a wife into a "whore," (esp since Cersei was also with Robert because he was a king -- that wasn't a love-match, either) but are those instances really "the same"? I guess that's another reason why I wonder what Tywin's purpose in what he did to Tysha/Tyrion was.

Cersei isn't a whore, but she has been made to fell like one by her father and Robert, and now the High Septon. She still isn't one, IMO, though. Her Walk of Shame was more like rape than prostitution, just as Tysha's commoditization was actually rape and not prostitution. Prostitution implies consent.

[Alexia]

If you're an ACTUAL whore who is literally taking gold for sex, then it's how people treat you. If you're a woman who is marrying as part of a transaction, then it depends on how you feel. Cersei felt whored by her marriage, but Catelyn did not seem to feel that way.

The husband is the core difference in each case, I think. Catelyn got Ned, who might not be gorgeous but is generally a nice guy who respected her and treated her pretty well, overall. Cersei got Robert, who said another woman's name on the wedding night and came to her bed drunk and hurt her. Now, Catelyn would probably not have reacted to Robert as Cersei did but nonetheless, Cersei and Robert truly brought out the worst traits in each other. I've always felt that Cersei would have done better being married to Ned, or even to one of her cousins.

Cersei isn't a whore, but she has been made to fell like one by her father and Robert, and now the High Septon. She still isn't one, IMO, though. Her Walk of Shame was more like rape than prostitution, just as Tysha's commoditization was actually rape and not prostitution. Prostitution implies consent.

:agree:

[Fournaridis]

I too, was repulsed by what happened to Cersei. I'm not sure how anyone couldn't be.

However, considering her crimes - she got off exceptionally light. At least she's able to get back up, brush herself off and get on with the old Cersei routine, again.

Some people think it was an extreme punishment, some people think it was worse than torture, other people think it wasn't enough. We all have different minds, so, who's to say that anybody is wrong?

In 2001 I was taken into custody in Ma'an, and had the oh-so-lucky fortune of being take to Al Jafr for a comfortable 3 year stay.

I was raped, beaten and tortured for the entire duration of my stay. I must admit (and, this is ONLY my opinion, based on nothing more than my own personal experiences. I am NOT saying ANYONE is wrong, or ANYONE is right) but, I would have taken up Cersei's punishment in replacement of the torture at the drop of a hat and thanked my lucky stars for it.

Other people might not be so quick, or even willing to make that choice.

It was a shocking, gritty punishment that while I feel she may have deserved it - I took no pleasure in it's execution. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Like another poster already said - I think Martin deliberately wrote it that way. You read it and think "Yes, she's finally going to get what's coming to her!"

Then, when it finally happens, you're horrified and repulsed. You got what you wanted, but you paid the price dearly.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

In 2001 I was taken into custody in Ma'an, and had the oh-so-lucky fortune of being take to Al Jafr for a comfortable 3 year stay.

I was raped, beaten and tortured for the entire duration of my stay. I must admit (and, this is ONLY my opinion, based on nothing more than my own personal experiences. I am NOT saying ANYONE is wrong, or ANYONE is right) but, I would have taken up Cersei's punishment in replacement of the torture at the drop of a hat and thanked my lucky stars for it.

I'm sorry to hear about your horrifying experience. I hope you're OK now.

I think you make an excellent point. Considering what Pia suffered, or the miller's wife at Winterfell, or Ramsay Snow's mother, or Lady Hornwood, or Tysha, or Elia Martell... Cersei did get off easy. I doubt Cersei has the capacity to adopt that kind of perspective, though.

[Fournaridis]

I'm sorry to hear about your horrifying experience. I hope you're OK now.

I appreciate that sentiment. I'm doing as well a I can, now. Sometimes, our grief can be as fleeting as our happiness.

I think you make an excellent point. Considering what Pia suffered, or the miller's wife at Winterfell, or Ramsay Snow's mother, or Lady Hornwood, or Tysha, or Elia Martell... Cersei did get off easy. I doubt Cersei has the capacity to adopt that kind of perspective, though.

What someone "deserves" is often hard to gauge, let alone judge and agree upon - so, I do understand the people who feel that her punishment was a bit too much.

But, Westeros is a harsh world. The laundry list of suffering you listed seems expansive - but, to the series fans like us - we know that it isn't even half of what's transpired.

Which, leads us back to the original point - did Cersei deserve the punishment she received? Maybe, maybe not. I suppose there will never be a concrete answer on who deserves what in this world, or the one we're so fond of reading about.

[RichardHaro]

I too, was repulsed by what happened to Cersei. I'm not sure how anyone couldn't be.

I wasn't repulsed, I enjoyed every minute of it, she fully deserved it.

Even that level of humiliation didn't manage to break her arrogance though.

I was just annoyed by the fact that instead of getting killed or a Stark getting their vengeance, GRRM probably gave us this instead. Which isn't as satisfying.

[Fournaridis]

I wasn't repulsed, I enjoyed every minute of it, she fully deserved it.

Even that level of humiliation didn't manage to break her arrogance though.

I was just annoyed by the fact that instead of getting killed or a Stark getting their vengeance, GRRM probably gave us this instead. Which isn't as satisfying.

Sorry, man - I worded that incorrectly big time. What I mean is - the punishment itself was gritty, it wasn't written for someone to get SEXUAL gratification out of it.

Now, you enjoyed her character getting her just desserts, yes - but, I'm sure you didn't get off on it, like that original poster thinks was intended.

[rue721]

did Cersei deserve the punishment she received? Maybe, maybe not. I suppose there will never be a concrete answer on who deserves what in this world, or the one we're so fond of reading about.

I think "deserve" is completely irrelevant. She got it because it was useful for someone who had the power to give it to her, to give it to her.

Considering what Pia suffered, or the miller's wife at Winterfell, or Ramsay Snow's mother, or Lady Hornwood, or Tysha, or Elia Martell... Cersei did get off easy. I doubt Cersei has the capacity to adopt that kind of perspective, though.

I don't know if comparing people's suffering is really useful, because all torture and cruelty is repulsive. Does someone's murder make someone else's rape OK? It's not like they cancel each other out.

I don't even think it's all that healthy to think "well at least I'm not THAT poor bastard!" after going through something shitty -- doesn't that just encourage you to spit on people who've been "beaten" and to try and create some fragile/fake identity that denies that you can be and have been hurt? If you're preoccupied with trying to convince yourself you're somehow better than your own life, aren't you going to be insecure, open for manipulation, and also just not going to be as resourceful as you could be because you're ignoring parts of yourself/your life? Case in point: Tywin and Tyrion, and Cersei thus far.

There are some ways I can think of off the top of my head that would have been much more libel to break Cersei -- I think one major one would have been to force her to hurt Tommen, for example. That wouldn't even have been so far out of bounds in this world -- that's basically what Tywin did to break Tyrion, for example, by forcing Tyrion to participate in Tysha's gang-rape and rape her himself. But the High Septon figured he didn't need Cersei completely shattered -- she could still be useful, I guess -- but he needed her publicly shamed in order to strip away her aura and respectability so his looked greater in contrast, so that's what he did. The Walk was just a means to an end for the High Septon, but now that it's happened, I hope Cersei can use it as a means to her own ends, too.

it speaks well for his character that he can take his degradation and turn it into a vehicle for self-improvement. Neither of his siblings could do that. And his choice to take on the gold cloak may have been his (rather wise, it seems) tactic for surviving the insanity of being a Lannister. I think it speaks well of him that he took that direction instead of the much more self-aggrandizing possibilities, and that part of him is standing him in better stead now. Sadly, I think he's doomed to die heroically in spite of himself.

I don't really think Jaime shutting himself off emotionally and logistically is all that heroic or laudable, though I do think that it was a good survival tactic. I do agree, though, that it's laudable that Jaime decided to *take action* to make sure he didn't lose his spirit or sense of self when he lost his hand (by learning to fight with his left, by not letting the missing hand make him a "cripple," etc). He just always seems so thoughtless to me that I honestly just count him out most of the time. Like, if Jaime shows up, that's great, but Jaime probably won't show up. Can you be a hero if you're MIA most of the time? Isn't most of the use of a hero to give other people hope? Can you do that if you're utterly undependable?

I've started at ACoK, b/c I feel like I've forgotten more than I remember.

Right there with you. There is just *so* much to remember. And none of the viewpoints are all that trustworthy, which just makes the events all that more complex -- it's hard to know, sometimes, how to put all those viewpoints together to get a clearer picture of what is going on. Though that's the fun of reading these books, for me, too. :)

if you don't let the world break you, you can't survive in it... though I have hopes for Jon Snow, Brienne, Arya, Dany, hell, even crusty old Stannis... they're not broken yet.

I think Arya lost herself in her vengeance quest -- I don't know that the person Arya began as is still alive...which is why I find it hard to read her chapters now. In contrast, I think that despite it all, Brienne is still herself, and that's why I love the shit out of her :). And that's why I love Cersei, too -- she's a horrible person, but at least she just keeps being her own same old horrible self, no matter what :). It's frightening to me to think that even though you're dead inside your body lives on as its own monstrous force wondering the earth wreaking destruction -- and all while wearing your face. That's what I think the Others are, but that's also what I think Arya is, too. I think the most tormented characters are the ones who are fearful of that happening, but can envision that happening to them. One example, I think, is Sansa.

And the issue about being broken is, I don't know how you can become stronger in the broken places -- because the world just keeps grinding on. The world isn't going to stop just because you cry for mercy, and give you time to rest up. Personally, I don't know if it's better to be crushed into rubble all at once like Ned, or to be slowly chipped apart like Tyrion. Probably there's less torment in being destroyed all in one blow like Ned, and people will look back at you with more fondness, too. Maybe that's an argument for keeping a really rigid sense of honor? And what keeps someone like Brienne or Cersei from being knocked apart too much? Is it that they somehow seem impervious that attracts Jaime to both of them -- is that their similarity?

The books take place in a crucible where it seems that only the most dangerous people survive. I guess the question is, can you be dangerous and honorable at the same time?

I don't think you have to be dangerous to survive. People like Sansa have managed it. In fact, I think that it's a bad idea to try and act like you're the baddest badass around, because that just makes it a point of honor for people to try and take you down. Case in point: Cersei. Though I don't know if it would have been helpful to her to play weak since she's queen and therefore obviously *not* powerless, I think it would still have been a wiser move.

I'm not really understanding the concept of honor, I guess? Isn't it just a moral code? Doesn't nearly everyone have their own? And who cares if you break anyone else's as long as you manage to keep your own? But I guess the difference between honor and morality is that honor is socially bestowed?

Who gets to have honor? Can everyone earn it? I would say that people like Cersei or Tyrion can't. What honor can Cersei win? She can be shamed and she can have pride, and she can have priorities, but does she have access to *honor*? Lysa (?) said that a woman's honor is different, and as long as a woman works to protect her children, she has it. But is that *honor*? It's also a constant source of pain to Tyrion that he seems unable to find a way to be seen as honorable -- he can fight like any soldier and he ends up without honor just the same.

So maybe you can "make" someone an actual whore by force, if you're a woman who has no cache or other "value" besides literally being used for sex. For someone like Cersei, it seems to be a state of mind.

Tywin thinks of everyone as a commodity.

I don't know that "whore" is such a strict category. According to Tywin and probably his children, everybody who is for sale is a "whore," and everybody is for sale because everybody has a price. I also think that, to Tywin, price = worth. A person is worth what he's able to sell himself for. Tyrion wasn't worth Casterly Rock, so it angered Tywin that that's the price he asked for himself, and then he bargained Tyrion down. Cersei isn't worth anything unless she can be sold (again).

I don't think you make someone a whore by way of rape or other shows of physical force, you make someone a whore by buying them/their services. They're a whore once their price is set -- but without a price, they're worthless. That's why giving Tysha gold made her a whore -- she could have felt like a whore or not inside, it didn't matter. What mattered is that she had gotten her price, that she'd been bought.

Her Walk of Shame was more like rape than prostitution, just as Tysha's commoditization was actually rape and not prostitution. Prostitution implies consent.

Cersei took the Walk because she wanted to be "paid" through access to Tommen. That doesn't mean she *wanted* to take the Walk -- she was coerced into it. But isn't that true of most prostitutes? Once coercion is entering the picture, I think consent gets really tricky. If you can't say no and survive, how do you have the ability to say "yes"?

I don't really think that Tysha and Cersei are whores in the conventional sense of "prostitute." But when a person is forced to give access to her body in order to survive, and/or when her body becomes a commodity for another person to use for his personal gain, then I think that she's arguably been forced into a version of whoring herself out. I don't think that "rape victim" and "prostitute" are mutually exclusive.

Btw, I don't mean to say "whore" as some kind of slur or with any moral meaning attached, I mean it as someone who has been commoditized -- whether against their will or with their consent (which -- how can you consent to become a commodity? is that even possible?).

In 2001 I was taken into custody in Ma'an, and had the oh-so-lucky fortune of being take to Al Jafr for a comfortable 3 year stay.

I was raped, beaten and tortured for the entire duration of my stay. I must admit (and, this is ONLY my opinion, based on nothing more than my own personal experiences. I am NOT saying ANYONE is wrong, or ANYONE is right) but, I would have taken up Cersei's punishment in replacement of the torture at the drop of a hat and thanked my lucky stars for it.

I'm sorry.

[Fournaridis]

I'm sorry.

There's nothing to be sorry about. You didn't do any of those things to me.

I shared that about myself more or less, to make a point to the people who claim that Cersei would have gotten off "easier" had she been physically tortured.

I can assure you (and, once again, this is only based on my own personal experience) that I would have gladly taken her punishment, in replacement of torture and not thought twice about it. Saying you would take one punishment over the other comes easy when you've never experienced either.

However, this does NOT make me the expert on this situation - and, like I said, there are some people who would even still accept physical torture over what Cersei went through. I know I wouldn't.

Sexual or physical abuse - it makes no difference. They both leave the victim with painful, traumatic memories.

When I began to despair, a little Armenian named Hekurahn told me in more words or less :

"No matter what they do to you, remember who you are. They cannot make you less of a man, they cannot change who you are or what's in your heart."

Which is unsettling, considering what Cersei thought to herself, in order to prepare herself for what was to come.

Like I said before, I feel she got off exceptionally easy, consider her crimes and how depraved she is. But, choosing a punishment to fit the crime is never an easy thing. Who's to say what is right and what isn't?

[Chirios]

Not really, he made himself a love match. However, he thought of his children in terms of their value to House Lannister.??? No, he was angry because he didn't believe it was a love match. He thought Tysha was a gold digger and saw shadows of his father's control by the low born mistress. And tbh, I tend to agree with Tywin's perception. A starving 13-year old girl falls in love on first sight with a hideous dwarf? Nope. I don't think she was calculating about it in the way that Shae was, but I've no doubt that her motivations were security, et al. He's a little scornful of Tyrion's public whoremongering, but he doesn't actually forbid it until Tyrion threatened to rape and otherwise torture Tommen over one. I felt like his reasoning was fairly sound. Tywin doesn't believe that Tyrion knows how to handle prostitutes and is embarrassed by how public he was with his whoremongering, but he doesn't actually do anything besides the occasional snide remark until Tyrion crosses a very distinct line.

Really?

Consider the following: Tyrion saved her life, saved her from being raped and possibly killed. She then finds out through talking to him that he is both funny and smart. Is it not possible that just once someone has genuine feelings, no ulterior motive intended?

[rue721]

"No matter what they do to you, remember who you are. They cannot make you less of a man, they cannot change who you are or what's in your heart."

Which is unsettling, considering what Cersei thought to herself, in order to prepare herself for what was to come.

Like I said before, I feel she got off exceptionally easy

I think a lot of people use a version of that sentiment to get through something they are powerless over: "they can get to my body, but they can't get to my soul," etc. Though it can get a little tough to believe when the issue isn't just about violence perpetrated against you, it's also about guilt over hurting/abandoning another person or failing "morally" somehow. Of course, Cersei would likely never have that dilemma, since she doesn't ever seem to feel guilt. Maybe guilt is something she can't feel because she doesn't love anyone who she doesn't think of as "one" with her, and guilt requires that you feel bad about ruining something outside of yourself?

I don't really think Cersei got off easily, because she just as easily could have had no punishment or shaming at all as she could have been violently tortured -- so, easy compared to what? Her ordeal was easy compared to being flayed alive, probably, but it was hard compared to living yet another day as queen mother. Also, got off for what? She's awful, but it's not like this was some effort to "rehabilitate" her. This was just a way of tossing her aside. I will say that Cersei is lucky the High Septon is likely underestimating her -- probably she's out of the woods now, because for whatever reason he thinks being shamed is enough to neutralize her. We'll see what he does once he figures out that it's not!

I wonder if she really feels shame now, actually. She did at the end of her Walk, but she didn't really seem shamed in that last chapter with Kevan -- to me, she seemed like herself, playing the part of modest matron.

[Fournaridis]

I don't really think Cersei got off easily, because she just as easily could have had no punishment or shaming at all as she could have been violently tortured -- so, easy compared to what? Her ordeal was easy compared to being flayed alive, probably, but it was hard compared to living yet another day as queen mother. Also, got off for what? She's awful, but it's not like this was some effort to "rehabilitate" her. This was just a way of tossing her aside. I will say that Cersei is lucky the High Septon is likely underestimating her -- probably she's out of the woods now, because for whatever reason he thinks being shamed is enough to neutralize her. We'll see what he does once he figures out that it's not!

I'm going to touch on this paragraph for the moment, NOT because I felt the other things you said weren't important (they were, most of your points were made in a far succinct manner than I could ever hope the achieve) I'm just running short on time, for the night.

You say "Easy compared to what?"

That sums it up perfectly. It's impossible to say what punishment fits what crime. And, because of this fact, people feel very differently about Cersei's "punishment". This is what, in turn, makes nobody wrong and everybody right - since, there is no right or wrong answer. Like you said, she got off easy compared to this, but hard compared to that. It really is an impossible circumstance with no correct answer.

It's a sad fact that today, some punishments for crimes committed are just as much about vengeance and shame now, as they are in Westeros.

She IS awful and I feel the Cersei we know really is a snake in the grass. Sure, she had to endure the walk to Kings Landing - but, she'll lie low for a while, and strike when the next unwitting passerby sets a boot around her.

She feels shame and guilt for HERSELF, but, not in the context of what shes done to other people, nor for other people.

P.S. - Excellent post, Rue! Thanks for the great read! goodnight!