[ADwD Spoilers] Cersei

[Julian Rayne]

But she had to confess on those crimes just to get contact with the outside world, without confessing she would have been left to rot. Robert Strong isn't a factor until after she's confessed, been given permission to speak to Kevan and persuaded him to involve Qyburn. Robert Strong isn't able to defend her from the more serious crimes until she's extracted herself from her initial predicament. As to why she doesn't just retract her confession after the event - probably because she doesn't want to be tossed back in her cell in the Great Sept.

It's also worth noting that her humbling seems to be Kevan's price for his aid, he wants her reduced to a state where she will accept just being packaged off to Casterly Rock.

She could have recanted it. Once Kevan told her of Arys Oakheart's death she already invoked the 'Robert Strong' plan.

And it isn't as if there's no precedent for recanting confessions. In the very same conversation Kevan had already mentioned that Margery's 'lovers' had recanted theirs.

Also I'm wondering how much she can count on Qyburn. She isn't in a position to be his patron anymore (for now at least) so unless he's got some personal loyalty to her she might be more screwd than she imagines.

[Raksha the Demon]

Cersei's chapter was one of the best in the entire book - sad, horrifying, and riveting storytelling. I am no fan of Cersei's, and think she deserves execution, but it the humiliation of a character as vicious and proud as Cersei, and as beautiful, was a powerful narrative. I was also pleased to see that while she was humiliated, Cersei is down but not out, emotionally or physically. She is still capable of manipulating her uncle into bringing back Taena (and not necessarily); and her repentance is a show; her heart is far from humble. And now that poor Kevan is dead, I doubt that anyone will be taking Cersei back to Casterly Rock for a quiet retirement.

[BoldAsYouPlease]

He's a moron when it comes to Cersei and her intentions, is what I meant, not when it comes to realm management. He has this whole smug monologue about how Cersei has been broken and is no longer a threat and etc etc, but we've been inside her head as readers and we know that's not true.

You're probably right about that - Cersei was humiliated by her "walk of shame" but her will was not broken. But I don't believe Kevan was relying on the ritual's effect on Cersei's thoughts and state of mind - it's primary value for Kevan was the way it affected the thoughts of everyone but Cersei. A humiliated ruler can't rule, and that was Kevan's intention.

In AFfC and this book, Kevan showed the sort of character development I wish Martin had provided for Cersei. The old knight was revealed as a capable and shrewd character who was finally emerging from his brother's shadow. We saw why Tywin relied on Kevan, and saw that Tyrion's assessment of Kevan as a man who "had no thought that his father hadn't had first" was probably wrong.

Cersei's POVs diminished her and reduced her to a remarkably stupid cardboard villain. I'd guess this was due to the compression of her mistakes from the original five year span Martin intended, but I think her character deserved more.

[PadmeSkywalker]

What happened to Cersei was not slut shaming. She's the dowager queen, she's not supposed to be sleeping around given her position. Cersei was the one who chose to undress herself. She was given a shift and in a moment of defiance she took it off. It pretty much sums up Cersei as a character, in that she is usually "screw you, I will do what I want", without thinking of the consequences. In this case, the fact that she chose to be naked made everything worse. As Kevan says, now that people have seen her naked and filthy she will no longer command any respect.

[eleusis]

What happened to Cersei was not slut shaming. She's the dowager queen, she's not supposed to be sleeping around given her position. Cersei was the one who chose to undress herself. She was given a shift and in a moment of defiance she took it off. It pretty much sums up Cersei as a character, in that she is usually "screw you, I will do what I want", without thinking of the consequences. In this case, the fact that she chose to be naked made everything worse. As Kevan says, now that people have seen her naked and filthy she will no longer command any respect.

No, she wasn't going to be allowed to wear the shift -- that wasn't her choice. They gave it to her while she walked through the Sept, so her nakedness wouldn't profane the eyes of the godsworn. The walk was a nude walk, that was the point.

[PadmeSkywalker]

No, she wasn't going to be allowed to wear the shift -- that wasn't her choice. They gave it to her while she walked through the Sept, so her nakedness wouldn't profane the eyes of the godsworn. The walk was a nude walk, that was the point.

I don't have the book with me, but no one told her to take it off or made a motion to do so.

[eleusis]

I don't have the book with me, but no one told her to take it off or made a motion to do so.

You weren't paying attention to her discussion of it with Kevan, then. Nobody told her to take it off because they'd already discussed it off-page and everybody knew what the procedure was to be. They wouldn't even allow her sandals. In Cersei II it's noted specifically that the shift is to guard the eyes of the faithful while she's in the Sept itself. Cersei has to steel herself to take it off once she's outside.

[evanesco75]

Seriously? She was supposed to be butt nekkid, right down to her pubic hair, which the septas removed. That was the entire point, which is why she ballked when Kevan suggested it. Can you really see Cersei being hesitant and terrified about walking from Baelor to the Red Keep if she could've kept her clothes on? Cersei??

Come on now...

[Claireducky]

I don't have the book with me, but no one told her to take it off or made a motion to do so.

That was the terms of her atonement. Kevan is the first one to tell her, and she balks.

Then in the chapter when it happens, they shave her completely.

"One of the novices had brought a robe for her, a soft white septa's robe to cover her as she made her way down the tower steps and through the sept, so that any worshipers they met along the way might be spared the sight of naked flesh."

One of the septas tells her when she asks for sandals, "His High Holiness has commanded that you present yourself as the gods made you. Did you have sandals on your feet when you came forth from your lady mother's womb?"

Later on the steps of Baelor's: "So now this sinner comes before you with a humble heart, shorn of secrets and concealments, naked before the eyes of gods and men, to make her walk of atonement."

The nakedness was part of the atonement the whole time, not Cersei's notion. Cersei's removed the robe herself was because she resolved to not be weak like her grandfather's mistress, who had tried to hide herself during her walk. She was trying to be a lioness.

[MindLikeWarp]

I didn't feel sorry for Cersei at all. I didn't think her punishment was good enough. She deserves to suffer more. The punishments done to men are far worse. I think Theon would love to have Ramsay parade him through the streets naked, rather than being flayed and maimed.

[Claireducky]

I didn't feel sorry for Cersei at all. I didn't think her punishment was good enough. She deserves to suffer more. The punishments done to men are far worse. I think Theon would love to have Ramsay parade him through the streets naked, rather than being flayed and maimed.

And castrated, don't forget that part.

[Azazis]

Finding her uncle been crossbowed like her father wont fix the fear of dwarfs either. I doubt she is done dealing damage.

[Lily Valley]

Reposted by request from the still Reading forum. I haven't gone through the whole Cersei thread yet so apologies if this has already been discussed:

A humiliating walk with a character that falls 3 times is much too significant to mean nothing. It's been a few years since I did the stations of the cross during lent, but the parallel here was like a hammer. Martin really makes sure you don't miss it by counting "...fell for the second time." I'll go dig out my catechism, but I swear reading that chapter was almost verbatim. Even where someone helped her one of the times that she fell. Where's Martin going with this? Thoughts anyone?

[Harrison Brace]

As for Margaery's involvement, if I recall correctly, it's strongly implied. She knows that Joff is a monster but is not at all concerned. She seems to know she's not really going to have to worry about him.

[Datepalm]

Mod:

Just to clarify, for those in doubt or new to the board - suggestions that someone - yes, even a fictional someone - be raped, tortured, maimed, castrated, genitally mutilated, and general misogynist ramblings, graphically gratuitous advocacies of violence and cruelty, etc, will be deleted and their perpetrators warned and eventually banned if unremitting.

Consider the guideline to be: What Would Eddard Stark Do?

I recognize that it may be difficult for some to discuss instances of torture, misogyny, etc, in the books without advocating and reveling in it in a tasteless manner in this forum. If you find yourself in this difficulty, I recommend trying harder.

[Sansouci]

Count me in with those who did not get the idea that this was painted as something positive. I felt it was supposed to be profoundly disturbing, both for the character and for the reader.

Near the end, her humiliation, her humiliation made her a sympathetic character. Despite her cruelty the actions of the Holy Sept put a lot of Cersei's flaws/drives in perspective (i.e. having to confront her stunted ambition because she is a woman in a patriarchal society).

[Raksha the Demon]

Cersei's walk of shame did not make her a sympathetic character to me. Yes, she is a woman in a patriarchal society. She is a very lucky woman; born into the most p powerful family in Westeros, given good food and fine clothes and subservience from lesser houses, and then the best marriage that her doting and ambitious daddy could arrange for her. Consider all the women in Westeros who weren't born Lannisters, or even noble/wealthy; and had to muck along with brutal husbands in hovels.

Yes, it's a shame that Cersei's ambition was stunted and she wasn't allowed to be raised as a leader, like her twin. But she could have controlled her rage, and tried to make the best she could of the hand she was dealt, become a power behind the throne instead of venting her rage and spite on anyone she viewed as an obstacle. Being held back unfairly because of one's gender does not entitle one to have innocent people tortured and killed.

Did I cheer at Cersei's humiliation? Not at all. It was a masterfully written chapter, very true to Cersei's character as I see it. I would have no problem with Cersei's being executed, but I'm not a big believer in public humiliation to this extent, i.e. stripping someone naked and having them walk through a city while people throw things at them...I'm not a fan of needless cruelty in general, and what the Septons did to Cersei was cruel. That being said, Cersei is still alive and well, which is more than can be said of Robert's infant bastard daughter and her mother, or Robert's young twin bastards at Casterly Rock, or Falyse Stokeworth, etc.

[Sansouci]

Reposted by request from the still Reading forum. I haven't gone through the whole Cersei thread yet so apologies if this has already been discussed:

A humiliating walk with a character that falls 3 times is much too significant to mean nothing. It's been a few years since I did the stations of the cross during lent, but the parallel here was like a hammer. Martin really makes sure you don't miss it by counting "...fell for the second time." I'll go dig out my catechism, but I swear reading that chapter was almost verbatim. Even where someone helped her one of the times that she fell. Where's Martin going with this? Thoughts anyone?

I think a wily Cersei will use her public humiliation to assume a moral authority she never had before. Now she can return as the risen and purged of all sins mother to the kingdom. The confusion around Kevan's assassination will allow her to re-assume some degree of influence (if she is not a suspect in the murder). If the Tyrell's could spin her as the guilty party that would be brilliant.

[Sansouci]

Cersei's walk of shame did not make her a sympathetic character to me. Yes, she is a woman in a patriarchal society. She is a very lucky woman; born into the most p powerful family in Westeros, given good food and fine clothes and subservience from lesser houses, and then the best marriage that her doting and ambitious daddy could arrange for her. Consider all the women in Westeros who weren't born Lannisters, or even noble/wealthy; and had to muck along with brutal husbands in hovels.

Yes, it's a shame that Cersei's ambition was stunted and she wasn't allowed to be raised as a leader, like her twin. But she could have controlled her rage, and tried to make the best she could of the hand she was dealt, become a power behind the throne instead of venting her rage and spite on anyone she viewed as an obstacle. Being held back unfairly because of one's gender does not entitle one to have innocent people tortured and killed.

Did I cheer at Cersei's humiliation? Not at all. It was a masterfully written chapter, very true to Cersei's character as I see it. I would have no problem with Cersei's being executed, but I'm not a big believer in public humiliation to this extent, i.e. stripping someone naked and having them walk through a city while people throw things at them...I'm not a fan of needless cruelty in general, and what the Septons did to Cersei was cruel. That being said, Cersei is still alive and well, which is more than can be said of Robert's infant bastard daughter and her mother, or Robert's young twin bastards at Casterly Rock, or Falyse Stokeworth, etc.

Well said. Certainly Cersei's station allow her privileges most women in this world could never imagine. But her inability to control her negative qualities makes her the norm in this world, not unique at all. Were she a man I don't know if she would have been nobler, she might have just been Jamie II but as it is her venality is driven by privilege, arrogance and anger all fueled by the ambivalent and uncertain relationship to power she has.

[Han Solo]

Did I cheer at Cersei's humiliation? Not at all. It was a masterfully written chapter, very true to Cersei's character as I see it. I would have no problem with Cersei's being executed, but I'm not a big believer in public humiliation to this extent, i.e. stripping someone naked and having them walk through a city while people throw things at them...I'm not a fan of needless cruelty in general, and what the Septons did to Cersei was cruel. That being said, Cersei is still alive and well, which is more than can be said of Robert's infant bastard daughter and her mother, or Robert's young twin bastards at Casterly Rock, or Falyse Stokeworth, etc.

I'm essentially of the same mind. I don't think that even Ramsay Bolton deserves the Ramsay Bolton treatment. Not necessarily because I feel any level of sympathy, but because it's just pointless, and it doesn't serve anything other than to degrade yourself to the same level. If a person is as vile a human being as the likes of Cersei or Ramsay, then just kill them and be done with it. The world is better of without them.