Slick Mongoose Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 I can't understand how you'd feel that that scene was designed to evoke pleasure in the reader in any way. It was massively uncomfortable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 I honestly saw little sexual stuff in that chapter (but then, I have not that much issues with nudity myself). I rather read the chapter as Cersei's great tragedy with a catharsis at the end. Her break-down might actually mark a change within her character. If I'm not mistaken, there might be actual real regret, and this would be a huge step for Cersei.I can see her doing some rather mean and cruel things after Kevan's death now, but she is going to work differently now, more subtle, and she might really deliver some cunning. After all, she is right, the Tyrells try to steal her son from her. And if this new Cersei is going to be a little less paranoid she might end up becoming a decent mother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexia Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Incidentally, it isn't "no big deal" to me. I would personally rather be physically tortured than sexually degraded. I'm not speaking for anyone other than myself on that, though, although I do know some women who would agree. This is magnified 1000x fold in an extremely misogynistic setting.)Count me in here -- I didn't like that, at all. I liked Cersei, myself, and while I was waiting for her to get her comeuppance I did not want it to come in the form of sexual degradation. I was disappointed, and rather sad, and didn't like to see her character broken like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merveilleux Posted July 13, 2011 Author Share Posted July 13, 2011 I can't understand how you'd feel that that scene was designed to evoke pleasure in the reader in any way. It was massively uncomfortable.Because it was exploitative, in my opinion. It is entirely possible to write a scene in a horrifying way and a "righteous" way. In my opinion, GRRM was catering to the masses who wanted to see Cersei shamed – except he did it in an unnecessary sexual way.I honestly saw little sexual stuff in that chapter (but then, I have not that much issues with nudity myself). I rather read the chapter as Cersei's great tragedy with a catharsis at the end. Her break-down might actually mark a change within her character. If I'm not mistaken, there might be actual real regret, and this would be a huge step for Cersei.I can see her doing some rather mean and cruel things after Kevan's death now, but she is going to work differently now, more subtle, and she might really deliver some cunning. After all, she is right, the Tyrells try to steal her son from her. And if this new Cersei is going to be a little less paranoid she might end up becoming a decent mother.I don't have issues with nudity, I had issues with the fact that Cersei was being shamed sexually for her sexual crimes. It was clearly sexual. It was meant to evoke a thousand lewd comments from the crowd, which were explicitly detailed for more pages than necessary than to convey the point. Given GRRM's dislike for Cersei, and the need for Cersei to be punished, I don't think it's illogical to wonder if he meant for his readers to enjoy it.That said, I hope Cersei actually does go somewhere from this. Not become an awesomely good person, because that would be incredibly unrealistic, but at least not be reduced to being portrayed as a complete idiot as she was in the last book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scabbard Of the Morning Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 But the point isn't to punish any woman sexually. It was to punish Cersei. Because what Cersei considers her greatest asset is her dignity as a Lannister, and her beauty and sexual attractiveness to men.This punishment was meant specifically to strip her (literally) of the thing she treasured the most about herself. Much in the same way that Jaime lost his sword hand.I mean, if this was done to Asha, I don't think it would bother her that much at all. Asha would have done it and moved on. Not be completely traumatized by cowed by the experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeejee Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 "It is a wise woman who knows her place." This seems a pretty big about-face. I think Cersei will be back in all her devious, crazy glory in book 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rashtrakut Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Kevan's dialogue in the epilogue suggests he may have gone along with it based on what Tywin did to their father's last mistress...after the humiliation nobody takes her seriously any more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hagga on her hill Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 I was absolutely furious when I heard the spoiler for this, and was surprised (maybe because I was expecting so much worse?) to find that the ugly tone GRRM has taken with Cersei (and Lysa) wasn't really present in this chapter. I don't know, I might reread it later when I'm not affected by enraged expectations and feel differently. Because if the Septon intended to sexually shame Cersei, it didn't work. We see Cersei feeling shame for her actual crimes (she hallucinates Ned Stark, Sansa and Lady, and the childhood friend she murdered in the crowd), and shame that her physical body is not a paragon of beauty. She does break down crying from the awfulness of being screamed at naked by a mobbing crowd, but despite half of King's Landing screaming sexual slurs at her, I didn't get the sense, from Cersei's monologue, that she felt a single particle of shame about her sexual conduct. What it *did* do was break down her narcissism-- specifically centering on her physical beauty, which forced her to think of herself as a person like any other person, and to actually feel remorse for her mistreatment of Sansa, etc. The "atonement" was very clearly intended to be a sexual humiliation, but interestingly, it seemed to have shamed Cersei about everything *but* her sexuality. I'm not sure how much of the humility she's showing (hiding her fierce bald head, reports of scouring herself in the bath as after a sexual assault-- which made me rage hard, Cersei is awful, but she's been raped enough) is real, or is halfway an act due to whatever machinations she's planning with "Ser Robert Strong."Anyway, this made me completely loathe Kevan, who apparently cooked this up, and who spends a lot of his chapter thinking about how wow, this totally broke his niece, but of course he shouldn't feel guilty for inflicting the sexual punishment that Tywin came up with to shame their stepmother on Cersei, what a shame but it couldn't really be helped, excuses, excuses, excuses. I was pretty satisfied to see him go after that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightwyng Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 But the point isn't to punish any woman sexually. It was to punish Cersei. Because what Cersei considers her greatest asset is her dignity as a Lannister, and her beauty and sexual attractiveness to men.This punishment was meant specifically to strip her (literally) of the thing she treasured the most about herself. Much in the same way that Jaime lost his sword hand.I mean, if this was done to Asha, I don't think it would bother her that much at all. Asha would have done it and moved on. Not be completely traumatized by cowed by the experience.Fair point, not suggesting that Martin needed to 'drag' this scene out as long as he did. However, the punishment as terrible as it was seems to be the one thing that could truly 'break' Cersei. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howling North Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 ... Nope didn't feel a thing. Certainly it was horrible, would probably feel bad for anyone else. Felt bad for Tytos' mistress to a degree. But Cersei... yeah, she deserved a lot worst, so I was with Kevan on this. Better shamed then dead on this one, at least if you're related to her. That and it made sense for the High Septon to punish her this way, her only accused crimes WERE sexual after all. And the whole story itself was not evocative or any kind of pleasurable turn-on, it was to humiliate and ridicule and make the reader go ohhh, that had to hurt. And it DID effectively undermine her ability to rule, which was a good thing in my view, she WAS absolutely wrecking Tommen's rule and the realm in the process. So yeah, only bad in regards to Kevan that he was a bit TOO good at his job as Varys points out. And no, I don't think Cersei's going to really change from this, she doesn't regret what happened to Ned, she regretted that it didn't work out the way it was supposed too. She still wrongly imprisoned and accused him of treason, still wrongfully stole the throne etc. etc. etc. And when she got to see her champion and reveled in Qyburn's words about him killing all her enemies. Also, did anyone else who she asked to be her handmaiden during her last conversation with Kevan? Yeeeahhhhh, no, she's lying low right now, but she'll be back next book, mark my words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantomwriter05 Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 First of all I just want to say that me being not a big fan of the Brienne and Jaime thing more than just a buddy cop/Disney movie style friendship I was more than a little disapointed that Jaime wasn't there to rescue Cersei. I read half a page of what happened to her and then had to get up walk around listening to music before I could go back into what was happening to Cersei. It shook me and made me Nerd!Rage at what was going down. (Being the only Cersei fan boy in existance.) But at the same time I actually understand what Martin was doing here with it. For years people were like "God do I hate Cersei!" or "I wish that bitch just dies!" even in the TV show people where like "I hope the Dorthraki rapes that bitch hard" (Yeah people said that)But in this George gave people what they wanted, but at a price ... People wanted her to suffer and she has in a truely horrible way ... but now fans have to live with what they wanted. In a way Martin is invocking the old Stark principle. "The man who passes the sentence must swing the sword. And if he cannot then maybe the accused deserves his life after all." People who wished horrible things on Cersei got what they wanted, but now they must swing the sword AKA read the downfall. So if someone who hated Cersei reads what happens to her and balks, maybe she really didn't deserve what she got. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scabbard Of the Morning Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Yeah, I didn't balk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howling North Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Me neither, I'm swinging my sword down like Jon did to Janos Slynt on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corbaekin Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Oh, I wasn't suggesting that her punishment was more severe than her crimes. I'm saying that GRRM's route on this disturbs me, because it feels like it was written to evoke pleasure and laughter, and I have issues with encouraging readers to delight in the sexual humiliation of ANY character. There have been other scenes of sexual humiliation that were written in a very dark, gritty, non-fanservice way. I felt like the intent of this scene was very different, in part because of how much more loathing GRRM has for Cersei than for any other POV character.You know, I have to say that actually this whole book is really icky on how it deals with Cersei and sexual humiliation-for example, having Tyrion say he wants to rape and kill Cersei? That's something Tyrion has never expressed before-he's always wanted to hurt her, but not to rape her. But Tyrion, who is this character we're supposed to feel so much sympathy with, is able to say it, and it's not presented as a bad thing, it's presented as a "How great that Tyrion is so honest" thing. Also, yeah, it is pretty fucked up that she comes in after that, naked and covered in slime, and is all "Where's my son? I want to see him RIGHT NOW." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howling North Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Pretty sure Tyrion was exaggerating there, in order to meet that Volantis woman's expectations as to what kind of man she thinks he is. Just listening to her scathing tone about men and knights made me wince. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Hippie Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 In addition to that, Tyrion is (imo) presented far less sympathetically than he was originally. He even comments on his constant drunkeness, reduced wittiness, etc.Also consider his behavior towards the girl Illyrio gives him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corbaekin Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 I agree with you, Ser Hippie, especially his behavior with the whore. Previously, you always got the impression that the whores relatively liked him, he was fairly good to them, and I can't recall him forcing himself on any of them. This time, he wanted her to hate him as he took her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IthilanorStPete Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 In addition to that, Tyrion is (imo) presented far less sympathetically than he was originally. He even comments on his constant drunkeness, reduced wittiness, etc.This is part of the general mood of the book, I think...the general bleakness and darkness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howling North Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Did anyone expect Tyrion to REALLY bounce back after everything he went through and learned in ASoS?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merveilleux Posted July 13, 2011 Author Share Posted July 13, 2011 But the point isn't to punish any woman sexually. It was to punish Cersei. Because what Cersei considers her greatest asset is her dignity as a Lannister, and her beauty and sexual attractiveness to men.This punishment was meant specifically to strip her (literally) of the thing she treasured the most about herself. Much in the same way that Jaime lost his sword hand.I mean, if this was done to Asha, I don't think it would bother her that much at all. Asha would have done it and moved on. Not be completely traumatized by cowed by the experience.It is possible to strip her of the thing she treasured most without writing it that damned extensively and fanservice-y. It crossed the boundary between plot device and gratuitous sadism fodder for me.And, again, I feel the need to clarify that my problem with this has nothing to do with a) whether Cersei deserved it or B) whether you should feel bad for her. I have an issue with GRRM's persistent hatred for and sexual degradation of one target character. It's not just a matter of what happens to Cersei – it's how he portrays it happening to her. And I get the vibe that he wants people to get off on her sexual humiliation. Which is creepy as fuck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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