[ADWD Spoilers] Speculation About the Winds of Winter

[HashRouge]

Well it's well past time the Freys and Boltons got their comeuppances, so I'm hoping GRRM has something great planned for that. I truly hope Wyman Manderly is involved somehow (and I hope the Freys find out just what he fed them) and that we finally see the Greatjon and the Blackfish back in action. I'm pretty certain Rickon and Osha will turn up as well and that the Starks reclaim the North, although I'm not quite sure which of them is capable with Robb gone. Really the others are all too young, apart from Jon, and last we saw he was too busy being murdered.

[Whatever]

I hope the Freys find out just what he fed them.

this.

And i want *somebody* (jon, tormund, whoever!) to go kick ramsay's ass, ASAP. I'm kinda scared of what he might do to mance, dear. I DON'T want him to end up like theon (who i do hope will be the one who kills ramsay in the end)

[Jamie Lannister]

this.

And i want *somebody* (jon, tormund, whoever!) to go kick ramsay's ass, ASAP. I'm kinda scared of what he might do to mance, dear. I DON'T want him to end up like theon (who i do hope will be the one who kills ramsay in the end)

Yeah, let's make this happen.

What a bastard. Legalization or not...

[Jamie Lannister]

Doublepostfaillike

[House Stark for Life]

I speculate that Jon does not die (for good), and that he remains Jon and does not become unJon. I hope he is a bit more Wolfish after his time with Ghost.....that would be awesome. Then we get ANGRY Jon........don't wake the wolf lol.

I do not care what Danny does....I used to feel sorry for her. Now I want Tryion to talk some sense into her and let her know what a crazy %#*$ her dad was!

Jaime......does cool stuff with Briene and stays alive.(to die honorably in the last book)Or hell maybe he takes the rock with Briene as his wife. (you never know)

Tyrion....keeps being entertaining and witty.

Bran......sees some cool stuff and keeps warging Hodor.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

I'm not sure I follow.

Many posters think that Jon will warg into Ghost and live in the wolf for a period of time. Ghost will be Jon's Ghost. The name is prophetic, or one hell of a spoiler.

[fassreiter]

let me guess and then they live happily ever after :rolleyes:

Exactly. Until the dragons come and turn it all into Mordor, of course. But yeah, I like my North to be awesome, and I like it to go down in glory. I even stopped hating Jon after reading Dance.

[Reek rhymes with Geek]

Do not forget about Davos. He looked frightened when Manderly showed him on the map where he believes Rickon and osha went.I

bet is it hardhome North of the wall. Briene is undoubtably taking Jaime to Cat and he will have to either die or do something on the spot that can be taken as trustworthy. Stannis as Lord Commander of the Nights Watch sounds good. Bran is the big question mark as far as whether he stays in the cave and becomes a tree or loves and lives with Meera or returns to claim Winterfell of which he is the rightful lord. There are so many loose ends. I thought for sure that Sansa and the Vale would be in this but apparently not.

I am pretty convinced that Davos is going to Skagos to look for Rickon, as he mentions that there are cannibals where he is going, and Skagos has been described as being peopled by cannibals.

[Maria26]

I'll be happy if and when Danny and Jon finally meet. I alwayz thought their lives were intertwined. How and when will they met is still a question and what willhappen when they do? Will they work together? Will one kill the other at the end? Will a romance happens (is the blue flower from the prophecy and I believe the mount to love for Dany)?

I've seen a recent itw with Kit Harrighton basically saying that he'd love to work more with Peter Dinklage and for Jon/Daenerys to meet...To quote what he said "But obviously I never cross paths with Daenerys in the first season, maybe not for awhile, who knows, that would be one of the goals I suppose."

[Knight of Ashes]

Exactly. Until the dragons come and turn it all into Mordor, of course. But yeah, I like my North to be awesome, and I like it to go down in glory. I even stopped hating Jon after reading Dance.

You forgot Reek and Ramsay locked in fatal combat as they fall into a fiery pit. Where they would find a fiery pit in the North at the height of Winter, I don't know.

Edit:

Grrrrrrrreat. Now, I have this image of Theon holding up his penis and wailing "my preciousssss".

[Layne]

How is Loras going to do anything significant in Winter other than die? Everything reliable from the story says he had boiling oil poured on him. There's no need to get intensely graphic, but there's no way he recovers from that with the limited medical knowledge of Westeros. Infection will do him in for sure, if his lungs, eyes, etc haven't been destroyed rendering him an invalid.

[ThinkerX]

My predictions, such as they are:

- Jon is dead. His replacement is almost immediately confronted with both an enraged Ramsey Bolton turning up on his doorstep AND a major invasion of undead (former wildings from what used to be Hardhome). In the course of this fiasco, somebody blows the wrong horn, and the Wall comes tumbling down, letting the creatures of the ice roam to the south. Pretty much the end of the Watch.

- No big battle at Mereen. Somebody - probably Beristan (sp?) - decides it is time to go, packs up and heads out, marching along the coast. *BIG* reason for the pullout: the 'pale mare', that very nasty plague running rampant through the Yunkai camp and Mereen both. Some of the mercenary companies will have the same idea. Dany will link up with them - sort of - as she'll be in an uneasy position with the horse folk that found her. The Ironmen will get a dragon out of this, but whether they get said dragon back to Westeros is another matter. End of the book, middle of the next one, though, all three of the cities in Slavers Bay are effectively empty or near empty ruins.

- The dornish rebellion/dragonlord invasion stalls out big time, maybe collapses altogether. Most likely Dorne becomes truly independant.

- Chaos in Kings Landing, what with the death of the Hand and Maester. Those two were among the very few capable of keeping the wheels turning. Cersi is likely to have a very short future as a direct result. The Spider is also likely to arrange for a few more deaths to keep things from settling down.

This is an *epic* story. Stories, at their core, are about *change*. Hence, an epic story would require some really big change. And this world has been in an effective state of cultural, political, and technological stasis for thousands of years.

Valria (sp?) conquored much of the eastern world, turning it into a set of giant slave states. Slave states *cannot* abide change of any real sort; it threatens their power. Note how concerned both Volantis (sp?) and Qor(sp?) are about the mess in Slavers Bay - that isn't just an anoyance, it threatens the entire structure of their world.

The horse people have been making the same circuits of the plains for millenia, and actually *depend* on things remaining as they are to maintain their own lifestyle - note that Dany's first hubby, despite being the mighty leader, had no real interest in conquoring Westeros.

As to Westeros, it too has been in a state of stasis. The wall has stood for thousands of years - and so did the the seven kingdoms to its south. Yes, they had their nasty feuds and attempted invasions, but by and large nothing major changed in a social sense. There were two changes of sorts: first the dragonborn showed up and conquored the place - but even then, the former royal families still remained as provincial overlords - and a decade prior to the first book, Robert tossed out the dragonlords. Yet again, nothing really changed. Note how all through the series, the various noble chararcters - and even the better educated not so noble ones will offhandedly talk about this or that ancestors actions in events of centuries or even millenia ago, and still regard those actions as worthy of vengeance or alliegance or whatever.

I think, at the end of the series, this long term stasis will have been broken, one way or another, for all of these groups. Maybe for the better, maybe for the worse.

[Sword of the Morning]

I am very sure that Mereen will not be abandoned. Dany has gone too far to stop and even though she may leave herself, she will attempt to make provisions to calm the area in Slaver's Bay.

I think a significant number of people will be staying as her proxies to bring lasting stability to the region. It's just going to take way too long for any appreciable army and/or navy to go ALL the way back to Westeros after we've spent so much time and effort going there in the first place.

Also with events coming to a head in the North, at King's Landing, and even with Aegon, Jon Connington, and Dorne in the south, we really can't AFFORD to have Dany take her sweet time traveling via land or sea.

It's also very weak narratively when you have one of your main characters stuck in a very boring travelogue while events of huge import are happening in real time in the main theater of action of the series.

Somehow we have to have some sort of MacGuffin to get people from one part of the world to another FAST. Arya has a chance since Braavos is just across the Narrow Sea. Dany I think just has to fly there and I think there is enough foreshadowing that Tyrion will be able to go with her on one of the other dragons.

In my mind, that's the only way of resolving the story in Slaver's Bay satisfactorily while at the same time getting Dany over to Westeros where she is needed. This way, all those armies can be put to good use in the Mereen area.

My gut instinct would be that she'll leave either Barristan or Jorah or maybe both (wouldn't THAT be a hoot!) to be her steward.

[dvcc]

I'll be happy if and when Danny and Jon finally meet. I alwayz thought their lives were intertwined. How and when will they met is still a question and what willhappen when they do? Will they work together? Will one kill the other at the end? Will a romance happens (is the blue flower from the prophecy and I believe the mount to love for Dany)?

I've seen a recent itw with Kit Harrighton basically saying that he'd love to work more with Peter Dinklage and for Jon/Daenerys to meet...To quote what he said "But obviously I never cross paths with Daenerys in the first season, maybe not for awhile, who knows, that would be one of the goals I suppose."

honestly on the begging i agreed with you, and i thought that their relation would have 3 phases: first dany thinks jon is some bastard (maybe they get along), then finds out that he is a stark and finally that he is a targ. however with only 2 books left a world separating them and a thousand military and political decisions that have to be made they won t have time to meet each other until the end of the last book, so i don t think there will be some significant interaction between them

as for bran apparently i am the only one who hopes that he stays with bloodravens and finds out a lot of stark familly secrets, the begging of the old relligion and what happened to hardhome(basically he will see a lot more visions about the glimpses he had on one of his chapters and we will know what happened in HARDHOMEEEEEE

[ThinkerX]

am very sure that Mereen will not be abandoned. Dany has gone too far to stop and even though she may leave herself, she will attempt to make provisions to calm the area in Slaver's Bay.

I think a significant number of people will be staying as her proxies to bring lasting stability to the region. It's just going to take way too long for any appreciable army and/or navy to go ALL the way back to Westeros after we've spent so much time and effort going there in the first place

You might want to take a closer look at the last Dany chapter. She expresses considerable regret about staying for so long in Mereen in the first place, concluding it is just too alien. Also keep in mind that these cities were falling apart physically and socially before she even got there (witness the command structure of the Yunkai army and the way things just completely disintegrated in Astapor). Toss in the plague, and *nobody* is going to want to hang around in Mereen.

My gut instinct would be that she'll leave either Barristan or Jorah or maybe both (wouldn't THAT be a hoot!) to be her steward

Nope. Barristans place is with Dany - he simply will not leave her. Jorah...it is possible he might actually try to kill her when next they meet, but it is highly unlikely Dany will ever trust him again. Plus, Jorah both hates these cities and has a dang good idea what that plague is going to do.

I would also point out that in terms of 'changing the world', Dany's unintended destruction of Slavers Bay - particularly ending the slave trade - has already done that. Check out the speeches made by the fellow from Qar and the alarm expressed by those in Volantis: that entire part of the world *depended* on those cities doing what they did. With them gone, and the specter of freedom, they are looking at the end of a way of life that has persisted for millenia.

I also have a strong suspicion that when (or if) Dany returns to Mereen, it won't be as a free agent. Remember, the horse people found her at the end of the last chapter, and while her influence over the dragon might keep them from killing her outright, it is unlikely they'll just plop a crown on her either.

Also with events coming to a head in the North, at King's Landing, and even with Aegon, Jon Connington, and Dorne in the south, we really can't AFFORD to have Dany take her sweet time traveling via land or sea.

You are assuming that Dany actually makes it to Westeros and that there will be some sort of grand confrontation. That *is* the way it would be done in a simpler tale, but this is a complex epic scribed by a master.

It's also very weak narratively when you have one of your main characters stuck in a very boring travelogue while events of huge import are happening in real time in the main theater of action of the series.

This, I agree with.

I'll be happy if and when Danny and Jon finally meet. I alwayz thought their lives were intertwined. How and when will they met is still a question and what willhappen when they do? Will they work together? Will one kill the other at the end? Will a romance happens (is the blue flower from the prophecy and I believe the mount to love for Dany)?

If it is Jon Snow you are talking about, it ain't gunna happen - he's dead.

My suspicion is that many of the major characters simply are not going to ever really encounter each other or directly work together.

There was some forshadowing about Jon from the moment he became Lord Commander of the Night Watch - he was the 998th person to hold that position - one short of the magic 999th (or possibly thousandth) that an epic would really require.

There is also a bit of foreshadowing about Dany - she is barren - which creates major problems in a queen (being able to bear children is a major part of the job description)

[Ivy Snow]

I kinda hope Danny wont make it to Westeros, or if she does, she will die soon lol.

[cabo]

I kinda hope Danny wont make it to Westeros, or if she does, she will die soon lol.

I'm new to the forum, and I've read every page of this thread, seeing a lot of things that I agree with, disagree with, and things that have been brought to light for me. SO here are my thoughts:

-Jon's ascension was planned by Mel to bring about the rebirth of AA. Mel has told Jon he is/has more power than he realizes, and sets into motion a plan for Jon to become AA. Marsh and co are only too willing to help Mel, since they disagree with what Jon was doing as LC. Borroq warged into Wun Wun to create the distraction for the NW. Marsh and co. do the deed, but are sad for doing so and thus the tears. Jon wargs into Ghost and eventually returns to his body and is freed from his vows. Leads the wildlings/Tormund to Winterfell. Jon becomes King of the North. Jon's discovers his lineage. R+L=J.

-Ramsay is the new Reek. The forces of Winterfell have left to face Stannis and they battle it out with no clear winner determined. Eventually, Jon shows up with Mel, wildlings, as AA and true heir to Winterfell, unites the Northmen, the Queensmen, and Wildlings. Stannis cannot kneel but takes up LC of the NW and continues Jon's work in preparing for the Others. When Jon and his ever growing army reach Winterfell, they find the true author of the letter:Mance Rayder. Under orders from Mel, he has taken Winterfell with the knowledge gained from Theon. Theon took W'Fell when it was poorly manned, and so did Mance. He forced Roose's hand to meet Stannis in the field, thus leaving W'Fell sparsely defended(Just as Theon took it). Mance makes Ramsay his new Reek, to Theon's delight. In the letter to Jon, Ramsay/Mance, wants Jon to bring everything that is dear to Mance with him, to W'Fell. Mance joins Jon and commands his Wildling army.

Theon's redemption. In part to help turn the remaining Northmen away from the Bolton's, Theon let's it be known that Ramsay married Jeyne Poole and that Bran and Rickon are alive. Swears fealty and the Iron Islands to Jon, as the rightful heir to the Seastone Chair. Rickon emerges with Davos and joins with Jon. Jon continues to march South, but leaves Rickon as the Stark in W'Fell. Tormund/Mance/Davos, one of these guys are lfet as Castellan of W'Fell, and help to raise and advise Rickon.

Varys vs Littlefinger Little finger plots to kill SweetRobin, however, Varys learns of Baelish's plans to command the Vale. Hires the FM to kill Littlefinger or Aleyne Stone. Arya, is sent back to Westeros for this job and is reunited with Sansa. She kills Littlefinger and leaves the FM when she hears about Jon marching South with an army. Sansa and new hisband Harry, ally the Vale with Jon and his army.

The Mad Queen. Tommen and Myrcella are discovered to not be of Robert's lineage. Although Cersei wins her trial through her champion, Gregorstein. Cersei plots with Qyburn to regain control of KL. Eventually, Qyburn helps Cersei to win over control of the High Septon and his army of followers. But to do so, Cersei must remarry someone of the High Septon's choosing. Cersei, upset with Jaime for not coming to her defense, agrees to this since the High Septon's choice is the son of the man she had often dreamt of marrying. Aegon comes to sit the Iron Throne as the armies of KL and the Golden Company join together, much to the dislike of Doran and the Sandsnakes, who had pledged their fealty to Aegon.

Jaime and Brienne. join with UnCat and the brotherhood, to take down Walder Frey and the Twins. Jaime denounces his title of LC of the KG, but is mortally wounded in the battle at the Twins. UnCat learns that her sons and daughters are alive, and with the help of Thoros, she resurrects Jaime and his right hand, with the promise that hopes of Jaime becoming LC of the King of the North's Guard.

My Three Dragons. Khal Jhaqo wants to become the new Drogo and wants his son to become the Stallion that mounts the world. Offers Dany his Khalasar if she weds him. Dany is already married but if Jhaqo kills Hzidhar, then she would be fair game. They ride against the Yunkai'i, only to find Meereen being assaulted by the forces of Selmy and Victarion. To make himself Dany's only suitor, Vic kills Jhaqo, Hizdhar, and blows the horn to prove to Dany that he is worthy. Morroqqo had forseen glory for Vic, so Vic felt he was safe to blow the horn. He will be wrong. Dany will then blow the horn, gaining control of her other 2 dragons. The remaining Iron men, pledge fealty to Dany and everyone goes West.

Tyrion, Lord of Casterly Rock. The imp leads Plumm and the Second Sons to turn cloak and join Selmy. The corpses I keep reading about, getting flung by the trebuchets, are not infected with the Bloody Flux. They are instead, Daario Naharis, Aago, and the other hostages held by the Sons of the Harpy. Tyrion then swears fealty to Dany and becomes blood of her blood, and receives a place on her council. Tyrion informs Dany of the existence of her nephew, Aegon. Everyone goes West.

[Elric of Melnibone]

How is Loras going to do anything significant in Winter other than die? Everything reliable from the story says he had boiling oil poured on him. There's no need to get intensely graphic, but there's no way he recovers from that with the limited medical knowledge of Westeros. Infection will do him in for sure, if his lungs, eyes, etc haven't been destroyed rendering him an invalid.

We only heard this second/third hand. Remember, everything we hear is not always reliable. I suspect there may have been some subterfuge here, to make Cersei think he's out of commission

In ADWD, one of the septas was babbling and about to spill the beans to Cersei about Loras but the other one shut her up-- it's pretty conspicuous we might not have the whole story here about what (if anything) really happened to him

My theory? He is not really hurt, just that the Tyrrells want to hide that info from Cersei and Kevan

[Lord Robert]

In the North: Melisandre and Tormund reveal some awesome plan Jon set up during the two hours talk. Jon 'gets better', while Tormund and many (many!) wildlings march on Winterfell and do awesome stuff. Mance Rayder, who is perfectly alive, joins them. The North rallies to Jon and the free folk and the rest of the Night's Watch. Before they do, much and more happens politically as to joining all those hairy Northern lords. The Night's Watch change their anti-wildling-rules and turn them into anti-wights-rules. Jon is freed from his vows and proclaimed King in the North. The free folk find some agreement for staying without kneeling. Davos and Rickon come back. Rickon gets to be Lord of Winterfell. They set up the wall for zombie apocalypse. What they don't know is that a true zombie apocalypse gets boring soon without funny modern gadgets (like lawn-mowers), and anyway won't happen in a book of this length. This is also because

in the slavery south, Daenerys goes more and more insane. Accordingly, her dragons get more and more unruly, eat more people and grow bigger and more hungry every day. She burns khalasars, slaver cities and everyone she doesn't trust or doesn't look handsome and manly, all for the greater good. Barristan finally realizes she is her father's daugther. Dany kills Aegon and the sellswords and marches on Westeros, her dragons burning down the countryside, which is the set up for the final book with the dragons, the Others (and some, but not so many zombies), and the awesomely united North.

Meanwhile, all other pieces are set into place in the Riverlands, King's Landing and the Vale. Cersei lives, Maergery dies. Varys does something. Several Dornish people also do something and fail. Littlefinger is killed by Sansa. Arya, Sam and Bran learn something of great value. Arya joins the game again. Sam goes back to the Wall. Bram is a tree. Jojen dies a slow death for being a lousy character with no real depth and always complaining. Meera gracefully and politically as well as gender-wise correctly catches some more frogs, then joins her brother.

Jaime and Brienne will do awesome stuff and die just to make me sad.

Much needed casualties: Stannis is bound naked to a stake and (slowly) burned alive. Melisandre realizes R'hllor is in fact the big bad Other in disguise and throws herself from the Wall in good old prophetess's tradition. Ramsay dies some horrible and unimaginable death.

Tyrion survives several dire situations and will be of highest importance to the outcome. Trees and ravens as well. Last chapter will be Bran with a horrible vision of burned lands and devastation. He decides to join the game through being a tree, rallying up other trees. One does not simply walk too far from Tolkien. Jon is too much of a Frodo, the trees are too entish, now we even got elves. Therefore: Enter the evil fire demon and his evil, evil dragons!

I can only hope Martin takes note and writes this! Awesome story line!

[Sand Snake No. 9]

I speculate that Jon does not die (for good), and that he remains Jon and does not become unJon. I hope he is a bit more Wolfish after his time with Ghost.....that would be awesome. Then we get ANGRY Jon........don't wake the wolf lol.

Angry Jon -- MUCH better than sulking Jon.