College Football 2011

[lokisnow]

What school would agree to play against any other school where the athletes didn't have a level playing field or an equal chance during competition? The league they are both in must have identical rules, hence 'league'.

Are you proposing some kind of Champions League of College Football with USC, Florida, Nebraska, Ohio State, etc? That would be like, the NFL, except it would be in LA, too.

Why would Notre Dame ever agree to abide by the rules of all the other teams who are still happy to play them even though they don't abide by the rules? Notre Dame doesn't have to be in a league, and rather than be ostracized they're elevated with special treatment, exceptions and cushy golden bowl-a-chutes to end even their bad seasons. They'll clearly be able and capable and willing to pay their football athletes million dollar salaries along with a host of other benefits few schools other than USC and Stanford could match. But they'd still probably get away with it, not have to be in a league and not struggle to fill out a complete schedule.

[S John]

Strong rumors floating now that WVU will be the SEC's 14th. So, that should make you happy.

I've heard the same. That would probably be the best realistic outcome at this point. However I have also heard a lot about a hybrid Big XII / Big East + TCU - minus many of the key teams, of course. That's definitely my least favorite outcome. It would probably be enough that the hybrid conference keeps its BCS auto bid, which is the most important thing, I guess. But I see it as yet another unstable arrangement and WVU has been in an unstable arrangement since 2003. I am sick to death of it.

And a lot of the WVU to the SEC rumors get pulled out of nowhere. To give one example, LSU plays in Morgantown this Saturday. A couple of ESPN analysts (Herbie for one, iirc) noted that Morgantown is an SEC-like environment, prompting many desperate WVU fans to speculate that ESPN knows something. The rest of it is mostly Tweets from sports writers. I don't buy it just yet.

Though I do think that it is probably down to Missouri vs. WVU for the 14th slot. Both are land-grant and the flagship schools of their state. Both are members of crumbling conferences with an eye on the door. Missouri has the advantage in TV markets and academics (if the SEC even cares about that). But WVU has a slight edge in recent football and basketball success. WVU also maintains the current alignment of teams by balancing the divisions - Auburn can stay in the West.

I don't know how the two compare in fan travel and merchandising, but I know that WVU is strong in both categories. I imagine Missouri is comparable, actually.

That said, I've accepted it - but I still think that the ACC is fucking stupid if they take a Rutgers / UConn combo as 15 and 16, and not WVU + either one of those. It hurts WVU more than it hurts the ACC, but if the ACC cared at all about athletic competitiveness or interesting rivalries that live outside of the state of North Carolina - WVU is a no-brainier. We bring immediate rivalries with Maryland, Virginia Tech, Pitt, Miami, and Syracuse. Its ridiculous how much sense it makes. ALL of our traditional rivals are now ACC teams. Even you, with you cold-black Hokie heart, must realize how badly the ACC has fucked WVU. Seriously took everything away from us. The SEC would be a great home moving forward but from a regional rivalry standpoint, which is a HUGE part of what makes college football so great, we are having to start completely over.

Will PITT still play WVU in OOC games? That would be a big rivalry game too lose.

103 year old rivalry down the shitter. I imagine both schools will try to keep it as an OOC game. But I don't think there are any guarantees these days. I don't believe we have played Miami, VT, or BC since they started playing an ACC schedule and we have a pretty solid history with all of those programs beforehand. Played BC and VT 50+ times each.

[Rhom]

I think by the time this all shakes out, there will be four major conferences. It has become obvious over the course of the weekend that they have now established themselves as the PAC, Big, SEC, and ACC. Now the question becomes, where do the leftovers from the Big XII and Big East wind up? And also, what happens to the castoffs with no obvious home like Louisville, Baylor, Iowa State, and Cincinnatti? Lastly, what will happen to the basketball only members of the Big East? Marquette, DePaul, Georgetown, St. Johns.

Can UofL and Cincy go limping back to C-USA with their tail between their legs?

One other concern I have is how does a 16 team conference shake out a football schedule? Assuming two divisions of 8 teams, do you have 7 games taken up with your division and then only 2 games against the other division which would leave you 3 OOC games? Or reduce that down to 2 OOC games?

[Reposado]

One other concern I have is how does a 16 team conference shake out a football schedule? Assuming two divisions of 8 teams, do you have 7 games taken up with your division and then only 2 games against the other division which would leave you 3 OOC games? Or reduce that down to 2 OOC games?

Well the presumed PAC 16 was talking about 4 divisions of 4 where you play everyone from your division. 3 then two of the other divs on a rotating basis 6, so that would be 9. i would hate to see that mean that cal doesnt play usc every year, etc

The PAC 16 also splits up really nicely

Wash, Wash St, Or, Or ST

Cal, Stan, Utah, Colo

USC, UCLA, AZ, AZ St

Tex, Ok, OSU, Tex Tech

Although, I don't see why you couldn't keep California together and put the new schools with the AZ schools, besides balance

For the SEC 16

Mizzou, Ark, A&M, LSU

Bama, Auburn, Ole Miss, MSU

Vandy, Kent, Tenn, West VA

UGA, Florida, SC, ??

not bad, im not sure who the SECs 16th is

[S John]

not bad, im not sure who the SECs 16th is

That's a pretty good question and one that concerns me. TCU? Louisville? I don't know.

I think that if the SEC went to 16, and OU was definitely off the table, then WVU is definitely going to be one of the teams. But if the SEC looks to add in pairs to keep an even number of teams then they probably won't want to add #15 until #16 is also lined up. The ACC looks off limits. So the concern is that rather than add 15 without a 16th lined up the SEC may stand pat at 14 for a while. So if WVU or Missouri is not #14 they may have to wait a few more years in football limbo. If the uncertainty wasn't bad enough - you just know that whatever shitty patchwork conference Missouri or WVU ends up stuck with in that scenario is going to impose a nasty buyout clause.

Edit - though I guess if superconferences went with a 'pod' model like the one you described above then the SEC could stay at 15 with three 5 team pods. You could still install some permanent 'cross-pod' rivalries. So if you had to split of UF and UGA or Auburn and Alabama you could make those games permanent.

[Kalbear]

Obsidian, how is that different from what we have now? We have plenty of schools paying huge salaries to NFL coaches, 100 mil facilities, and plenty of exposure to the world via big contracts. Schools are already hugely unequal. Did you think it was coincidence that Oregon became good just when Phil knight started dumping money into the program?

We are already in a big state of inequity. I fail to see how paying the kids changes that.

[ObsidianEdge]

Obsidian, how is that different from what we have now? We have plenty of schools paying huge salaries to NFL coaches, 100 mil facilities, and plenty of exposure to the world via big contracts. Schools are already hugely unequal. Did you think it was coincidence that Oregon became good just when Phil knight started dumping money into the program?

We are already in a big state of inequity. I fail to see how paying the kids changes that.

I don't think I am disputing the fact that some schools have dinero and that money makes it easier to win. If what I wrote looked that way, I apologize.

I am saying that as it is now, every school has the same opportunity to get money as every other, and these opportunities are governed by rules and regulations set forth by the NCAA. Clearly, some schools are A] better at profiting within the limitations of the regulations and B] better at disguising how money gets distributed that exceeds the letter and spirit of the regulations. However, that doesn't change the fact the Rules and Regulations that govern college sports set up a level playing field.

Any change that happens that results in a set of regs put in place to compensate student athletes must create a level playing field or else it's a non-starter.

[Eponine]

I keep being about to type something and then changing my mind lest John decide not to be friends with me anymore.

[Kalbear]

I am saying that as it is now, every school has the same opportunity to get money as every other, and these opportunities are governed by rules and regulations set forth by the NCAA. Clearly, some schools are A] better at profiting within the limitations of the regulations and B] better at disguising how money gets distributed that exceeds the letter and spirit of the regulations. However, that doesn't change the fact the Rules and Regulations that govern college sports set up a level playing field.

Yeah, and so what? So Temple has the same opportunity to get the money that Phil Knight funnels to Oregon - do you think that that's a level playing field? That's ridiculously naive bordering on willful stupidity. College is about as unlevel a playing field as you can get. Why do you think USC gets top 10 recruiting classes while on probation? Why is it that Ohio State is continually playing for the Big-10 title and Northwestern isn't? Why is Alabama usually so great?

It's because they have tons and tons of money. Now, that money doesn't go to the kids directly (at least documented) but it goes to those schools. They are able to hire top coaches, make top facilities and get exposure to the next level for their kids. How level do you really believe it is when teams like Duke have had decades of failure? How level is it when only one or two teams have won their division championship each year?

Also, parity for salaries is overrated, especially with college kids. Baseball has no parity of salary whatsoever and while the same teams tend to compete year in and year out, plenty of teams compete for titles. And then you have teams mired in crap. But they still play each other.

Put it another way, Obsidian - right now teams like Missouri State are scheduling games against Oregon. Why would they do that? How is scheduling a division-2 opponent having any semblance of parity? Did Missouri State think it was going to win? Or did they do it like cupcakes across the nation have done for decades - because it was a payday?

[Bronn Stone]

You are neglecting to look where the money goes now. I'd rather have the dollars going to allowing the volleyball teams to exist. Because ultimately, the players are irrelevant. If every NFL prospect skipped college football for some other hypothetical example, I'd be perfectly happy. I don't really care how well they play, as long as it is a little bit better than USC and Stanfurd. I really wish the illusion were the reality; that the teams were composed of college students facing off against each other for the glory of their schools and little else.

I can say this. If players were paid, that would be the final straw in the eyes of the Academic Senate at Cal. They'd either close the program down or downgrade to a level where players weren't paid. An academic institution has little enough interest in an amateur football team. It has absolutely none in a professional one.

Construction in California is expensive. Doubly so in Berkeley (Google "Hayward Fault" if you really want to know why). Cal's new stadium will cost around $321M. That is where the 'extra' money in Berkeley will be going for the foreseeable future. And they aren't building an especially luxurious facility. They just want one that is reasonably comfortable and won't crush the alumni in the earthquake it will almost inevitably see.

[lokisnow]

You guys really have to read the Atlantic story on the shistory of the NCAA. Right now, listening to the argument is like listening to a creationist who hasn't read the bible. We're not even operating from the same contexts, just assumptions and erroneous beliefs/mythologies.

I can say this. If players were paid, that would be the final straw in the eyes of the Academic Senate at Cal. They'd either close the program down or downgrade to a level where players weren't paid.

I wasn't aware that Cal athletes stopped competing in the Olympics when they ended the farcical amateur myth.

[ObsidianEdge]

Anyway Kal, there will be no system setup in the future where one school has better access to revenue to compensate players than another. What they do with that setup is completely up to the schools to pursue.

Have a nice day and Go Bears!

[Bronn Stone]

You guys really have to read the Atlantic story on the shistory of the NCAA. Right now, listening to the argument is like listening to a creationist who hasn't read the bible. We're not even operating from the same contexts, just assumptions and erroneous beliefs/mythologies.

I wasn't aware that Cal athletes stopped competing in the Olympics when they ended the farcical amateur myth.

They weren't paid by Cal. And if they were they paid by the Olympics, they didn't compete again for Cal. I suppose you could have come up with a stupider response, but I don't see how.

[Caliban2]

Just read the espn article about the NCAA firing off some allegations at the gamecocks. I hope the NCAA dies.

[S John]

Hmm some pretty consistent rumors today that WVU is going to be left out altogether.

If that happens... I'm probably not going to post here anymore. It will be years before my fury calms to a level where I can rationally discuss anything remotely related to college football. Martin will have probably finished the series by then.

[Rhom]

Martin will have probably finished the series by then.

Surely you jest!

[lokisnow]

They weren't paid by Cal. And if they were they paid by the Olympics, they didn't compete again for Cal. I suppose you could have come up with a stupider response, but I don't see how.

Cal doesn't pay their Olympians, but they do have to compete with athletes who are paid. Cal won't have to pay their football players, but they may have to compete with athletes who are paid.

The ending of amateur status in the Olympics wasn't armageddon, that was the point, if anything, the Olympics became better without that particularly absurd fiction.

[Rhom]

So wait... seriously... there are rumors that the SEC will turn down WVU on the basis of academics?!!?

[S John]

Louisville ranks academically lower than WVU, iirc. I don't believe that article. I could see taking Missouri, WVU, and Louisville, but Louisville alone and stopping does not increase the SEC footprint at all.

And make no mistake - academics has nothing to do with any of this. The biggest problem WVU has is its population of 1.8 million. TV is driving this and its sickening. It doesn't matter that WVU games consistently receive high ratings, all that matters is that West Virginia does not add a large market for a cable package. I'm sure that WVU's academic reputation doesn't help, but if West Virginia's population were around 10 million, we'd have been snatched up a looong time ago.

[Kalbear]

Kentucky would veto Louisville anyway. So it's a moot point.