Sansa's memory related to Sandor

[littlebird_]

But, overall, the scene is intensively suggestive of rape, and Sansa's mental response to it -- to revisit it over and over in her mind so that it's less frightening, and so that she has more control whereas really she had none -- seems to be that of someone who has experienced trauma. I think it would be interesting, when or if she meets up with Sandor again, if she were to remember what actually happened there. I do think he has a lot to answer for in this respect.

That was a great post littlespider and I do think that the underlying threat and trauma of the event sometimes get overlooked because of the romantic implications of the relationship but the experience as she experienced it was not a romantic one, it was a traumatic one. She does go back to it perhaps to rectify it in her mind, to make it less traumatic. The traumatic events of that night and her other experiences with men have made her scared of sexual encounter and by going back to that night she is trying to reclaim her own sexuality. But because it is in her imagination she can also control unlike real life situation with a man, she can define the contours of the story and limit it to a kiss, or to him climbing the bed and not go further.

Why she does this with the night with Sandor rather than Tyrion might be because she does feel safer with Sandor but also because her experience with Sandor was more traumatic or because she feels that since Tyrion is still her husband there is still the danger of a sexual encounter with him whereas imagining Sandor is safer since he has no claim on her.

I am always surprised people find that scene romantic actually, I remember being terrified for Sansa while reading it. In hindsight their interactions do take a new meaning but the first time I read it I was afraid for Sansa.

[Alexia]

Interesting post, littlespider. My thoughts:

I think Sandor definitely had sex on the brain when he went to Sansa's room but I'm not sure that he wanted to rape her. I think he wanted to take her away with him and wanted to have consensual sex with him, that he thought she'd fall into his arms for the rescue. Of course, nothing went as planned when she arrived -- he acted like a complete scary loon and Sansa was not interested in falling in anyone's arms at the time, rescue or no rescue, and especially not when they act as frightening as he did.

The world of ASoIaF does not share our condemnation of young girls' sexual activity with older men, in fact many girls are married before they are 14, often to older men, in Westeros.

Disagree. The three marriages you mention, Jeyne, Sansa, and Daenerys, were all made under exceedingly abusive circumstances. Viserys, the guy brokering one of the marriages, asks if Khal Drogo really likes his women so young and then compares it to the idea of fucking horses. Tyrion calls Sansa a child and says that she is too young to have sex. I can't discuss Jeyne's marriage in this forum just yet but will point out that characters also expressed disapproval related to age.

Cersei and Catelyn both married at 18. Myrcella's marriage was brokered for 14. I believe that the original Sansa-Joffrey marriage was supposed to take place when she was 16. In AFFC, the lords make fun of Sansa's insistence that she is not a child and Corbray's rude comment implies that she's not quite ready for sex just yet. The world of ASOIAF does not, by any means, approve of early sex and numerous characters express disapproval of it. I never understand why the rare abusive marriages somehow get upheld as being the norm.

[Starbird]

One huge problem with the idea of a Sandor/Sansa relationship is that he's a psychologically messed up loose cannon and she was a scared little girl. I think they did share a sweet moment, one that surprised both of them, when Sansa sang and touched his cheek and he wept; but it could have gone down a lot worse. I am not sure Sandor intended rape when he came to her room; but he might have struck out at her in anger if she had said something different or shown anger.

I have to disagree, to a degree. It DID go down a lot worse, from Sandor's perspective. She didn't look at his face and she didn't take him up on his offer of help. That's 2 rejections. She also said repeatedly that she was scared, that he was hurting her, etc., which, based on his confession to Arya, ate at him afterwards. (To paraphrase, "she didn't give the song, I took it.") Further, she told him his escape plan wouldn't even work. He didn't get angry about it, though. It wasn't until she closed her eyes for the kiss-that-never-happened and he took it as she couldn't stand to look at his face, that he got upset. But that's pain, not true anger. He just doesn't know how to express that so everything comes out angry.

I agree that she diffused the situation with her song (wasn't that a prayer, really?) and by touching his cheek but I'm not convinced he would have hit her. He knew things weren't going his way very early on. I'd love to hear GRRM's take on this.

[Été]

I'm extending an idea, and quite possibly stretching it too far.

Sansa mainly associates the Hound with protection when he's not around to scare her. Maybe he thinks of her with attraction when he can't see just how young she is. Even in the pervy scene on the serpentine, he acknowledges that she's "almost" a woman, but is essentially still a child.

Sansa keeps getting reminded that the Hound is actually a bit douchey and feels naive. Sandor keeps getting reminded that the little bird is actually only a chick and feels like a paedo. Both get annoyed with themselves and each other, because the other can't live up to the ideal they've created, and they shouldn't have been dumb enough to have that ideal in the first place.

[Alexia]

Even in the pervy scene on the serpentine, he acknowledges that she's "almost" a woman, but is essentially still a child.

I kind of thought that Sandor thought that she was a woman because she flowered. There's no way that he and every other person in that castle didn't hear about how she set her mattress on fire panicking over it. There's no way the relationship wasn't inappropriate even in Westeros for numerous reasons -- I think that maybe in Westeros Sansa is seen in the light that a 14 or 15 year old modern day girl would be seen in, and the appropriateness of a relationship seen under that light. So Sandor was perceiving that she was a young woman when he went to "rescue" her, despite the fact that his attraction towards her would be seen as inappropriate by the cultural standards.

[Tully to a T]

I think she might be filling the missing pieces of blacking out with a kiss, if she did black out we don't know what she exactly did or said there but neither does she and putting a kiss there is something that gives her agency and power rather than making her the victim of the situation. So it might be her way of rectifying the situation as it were. She was helpless then but as she grows and matures her memories of Sandor and that night change and intensify, at first its a kiss and then its him entering her bed in the place of Tyrion. Don't know if this makes sense but the change in those memories might mirror her own internal development

when it happens she's just a scared little girl who blacks out

next time she remembers she is more confident so she kisses him

next time she remembers again she is becoming a woman so he is entering her bed

next time she remembers ......

I don't know if we can have a timeline as to what she changes at which time frame it might mirror how Sansa herself is changing

A lot of posters have described Sansa as revising or refining or improving her memories of that night as a process of giving herself more power than she actually had ... more of a PTSD-type disassociation process. I read it as almost the opposite ... as she gains strength as Alayne, she loses her fear (which was such a huge part of the description of her interaction with the Hound that night ... she seemed completely convinced that he might kill her, which I think was a real "heat of the moment" mis-read of his intentions). I feel like the stronger she gets in the persona of Alayne, the more she understands that his intentions that night were not to kill or rape her, but to take her with him ... hence her subsequent questioning about whether or not she should have gone with him, a possibility that she did not seem to give much consideration to at the time (understandably).

He really did blow it with the dagger and the unnecessary roughness and scared the crap out of her ... I think she understands in hindsight that there was a missed opportunity there to escape. I'd agree though that it is much better for the story development that she did not go with him ... too much potential for icky awkward horribleness having them wander the countryside together. For now they are both much better off where they are (if she can keep LF's icky fingers off of her, that is ...). I would like them to meet again when she's older, and he doesn't have a sword or a dagger in his hands.

[Été]

^^ I think it had less to do with Sansa mis-reading the Hound's intentions and more to do with him presenting them incredibly poorly.

I kind of thought that Sandor thought that she was a woman because she flowered. There's no way that he and every other person in that castle didn't hear about how she set her mattress on fire panicking over it. There's no way the relationship wasn't inappropriate even in Westeros for numerous reasons -- I think that maybe in Westeros Sansa is seen in the light that a 14 or 15 year old modern day girl would be seen in, and the appropriateness of a relationship seen under that light. So Sandor was perceiving that she was a young woman when he went to "rescue" her, despite the fact that his attraction towards her would be seen as inappropriate by the cultural standards.

The "almost a woman" scene on the serpentine is fairly early on in ACoK; she's only just made contact with Dontos. Her flowering doesn't happen until near the end of the book - that happens after their scene on the roof when the Kingswood is burning. With Stannis closing in on KL and battle imminent, Sansa's period-related freakout might not have been priority court gossip right then (though it certainly would have been at any other time).

[Alexia]

^^ I think it had less to do with Sansa mis-reading the Hound's intentions and more to do with him presenting them incredibly poorly.

Agreed. I think that any woman would read them in a very negative way.

The "almost a woman" scene on the serpentine is fairly early on in ACoK; she's only just made contact with Dontos. Her flowering doesn't happen until near the end of the book - that happens after their scene on the roof when the Kingswood is burning. With Stannis closing in on KL and battle imminent, Sansa's period-related freakout might not have been priority court gossip right then (though it certainly would have been at any other time).

Yes, but likewise, she doesn't really associate Sandor with protection until he cuts her out of the mob. At that point, it is all over and she starts wishing Dontos was like him and that he was there every time she is afraid of something.

Sandor definitely knew that she wasn't a woman and that she was still too young during the serpentine scene, he flatly says that she isn't but that she looks like one. But by the end of ACOK, I do think he thought that he saw her as a woman at the same time she started thinking of him as protection, even though she really is not.

I just cannot believe the freakout was not being gossiped about, impending battle or no impending battle. It is way too juicy and besides that, quite a bit of work would have been required to restore her room to its normal condition.

[littlebird_]

A lot of posters have described Sansa as revising or refining or improving her memories of that night as a process of giving herself more power than she actually had ... more of a PTSD-type disassociation process. I read it as almost the opposite ... as she gains strength as Alayne, she loses her fear (which was such a huge part of the description of her interaction with the Hound that night ... she seemed completely convinced that he might kill her, which I think was a real "heat of the moment" mis-read of his intentions). I feel like the stronger she gets in the persona of Alayne, the more she understands that his intentions that night were not to kill or rape her, but to take her with him ... hence her subsequent questioning about whether or not she should have gone with him, a possibility that she did not seem to give much consideration to at the time (understandably).

What if its a mixture of both? There is the need to rewrite a traumatic events in order to gain more agency (she does add the kiss before becoming Alayne) but also and in relation to that as she does become more powerful as a person her reaction and understanding of the kiss also change.

i need to make some sort of graph of the evolution of her reactions and descriptions of the kiss :P but essentially I do think its about reclaiming her own sexuality, if I am not mistaken it increasingly comes back to her whenever there is a sexual discussion or someone kissing her so this is her way of reclaiming her sexuality since in reality she does not have much control over it, and inversely as she gets to embrace and utilize her sexuality more she might not need that memory as an anchor to keep her going. Am I making sense? Right now it might be just her way of saying, let them kiss me all they want, I can't change that but I have my memories, as she takes more control and starts to kiss on her own she will be making the choice and will no longer be in need of those memories.

I have thrown so many theories around that I ended up confusing myself :D

[littlespider]

Well said, littlespider. I'll admit that, on first reading this scene, I just found it straight-up hot.

At times I feel the same. And by my post I also do not intend to contradict the copious evidence to indicate the Hound's smoking hawtness. The "who is the sexiest" thread is great, btw, and I think that if one were to tally up the results, in the male category he would clearly come out on top. *wink, wink*

As to male readers and extremely young girls, I remember a couple of male friends indicating that Emma Watson was hot when the second HP movie came out. THE SECOND. How old was she then, 10, 11? And clearly still a kid. I told them they were disturbing perverts. I still really hope that these guys were the exception and not the rule.

Why she does this with the night with Sandor rather than Tyrion might be because she does feel safer with Sandor but also because her experience with Sandor was more traumatic or because she feels that since Tyrion is still her husband there is still the danger of a sexual encounter with him whereas imagining Sandor is safer since he has no claim on her.

I find this interesting as well. Tyrion was not overtly threatening to her but somehow she focuses on the BBB moment as a more erotic/fond memory. I agree with you: Tyrion is still potentially on the horizon if he returns. I found it odd, btw, (and earlier more evidence of the rape scenario) that Sansa indicates to Randa that she knows exactly what goes on between men and women in the bedroom, when my sense is that nobody really gave her the birds and bees talk prior to her wedding. And yet she associates both men with this knowledge.

As for GRRM being a pervert in the writing of Dany's wedding night, I don't see it that way. The world of ASoIaF does not share our condemnation of young girls' sexual activity with older men, in fact many girls are married before they are 14, often to older men, in Westeros.

I'm with Alexia here on my strong disagreement with this frequently made argument. In addition to the reasons she stated above, the whole "but that's the normally accepted culture in Westeros" I think does not exculpate George Martin from the strangeness/creepiness of the hypersexualization of very young women/girls. Yes, it's fiction. Yes, we all enter the willing suspension of disbelief when entering that world, but we still think about the ethical implications, yes? What if I wrote a novel wherein it was normally accepted that people under a certain IQ were universally sterilized so as to prevent them having children? And where this practice was not only condoned by "bad" characters but assumed to be a good in society? Perhaps readers might judge me (the speculative author) a little and assume that I had some personal investment in this principle.

But I do think it's a complicated issue, and overall it's one that I'm not too worried about since I'm able to detach from it enough to enjoy the novels.

There's a lot more I could respond to but very sadly I have to go do Real World Things. Boo.

[Été]

Re: really young girls - from a plot point of view, powerlessness and the paedo factor are important parts of Dany and Sansa's relationships with men.

But after ASoS, we should have had the five-year gap, which would have made all the girls in the story conscionably marriageable - even Arya. So when we're talking about plot developments in romantic terms, I tend to take the ages more lightly than earlier in the series.

[Alexia]

I find this interesting as well. Tyrion was not overtly threatening to her but somehow she focuses on the BBB moment as a more erotic/fond memory. I agree with you: Tyrion is still potentially on the horizon if he returns. I found it odd, btw, (and earlier more evidence of the rape scenario) that Sansa indicates to Randa that she knows exactly what goes on between men and women in the bedroom, when my sense is that nobody really gave her the birds and bees talk prior to her wedding. And yet she associates both men with this knowledge.

1) I think Sansa perceives Tyrion as being more of a threat to her because he is a Lannister and he actually married her and made her strip for him, whereas Sandor only made her sing for him.

2) Sansa has known all along what sex is, I think. When she had the period freakout, she specifically said she was afraid they would marry her to Joffrey and make her lay with him. She might not have understood the emotions or been able to really relate to the act, but she certainly knows what it is.

I'm with Alexia here on my strong disagreement with this frequently made argument.

It is one thing I really don't get. You literally have characters (popular characters, even) hopping up and down condemning it ("you are a child, but I still want you" "I'd make you fuck all 40,000 men and their horses too, if it got me my army" "Sansa is too young" "Does Drogo truly like his women so young?" :stunned: ) and people still say that it is somehow normal or acceptable behavior. It just isn't portrayed that way at all -- it happens but that isn't the same thing.

[brashcandy]

I see the discussion has resumed nicely... so I'll just insert my two cents...

I've said it before, but just to recap, Sansa is the most sexually threatened character in this whole series, yet by luck and fortune, she keeps escaping the worst of these threats. I'm thinking her time has to run out soon, but I also think that if there is a next time she is threatened with rape, she'll be the one to rescue herself. As others have theorised on Sansa's misremembering of the kiss, at first she thinks of it as a kind of bragging, then when she is in the Eyrie, she seems to view it almost nonchalantly... that part of her life is over with thing.

What I found interesting is that she doesn't just have a memory of the kiss, but an actual sensory imprint of what the kiss felt like. This is why it is hard to accept how she could have just pulled this kiss from nowhere. It says, "She coud still remember, how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own."

This description doesn't actually give much insight into how she truly feels about the kiss, but rather just that she can still remember the touch of his cruel mouth. Continuing on, she says "He took a song and a kiss, and left me with nothing but a bloody cloak."

So she remembers the rest of that scene very clearly, but again the kiss stands out like a sore thumb.

It's strange when she doesn't mention anything about his attempting to rescue her during these memories when she is at the Eyrie. It simply says, "He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky." It almost sounds here as though she was waiting on him to come to her, and is left somewhat disappointed by his only taking the song and kiss :)

Nevertheless, it's a fascinatingscene, given how many times we all can nitpick it and interpret it and I agree that Sansa is gradually giving herself more agency in her recollections of the past.

[littlebird_]

I see the discussion has resumed nicely... so I'll just insert my two cents...

I've said it before, but just to recap, Sansa is the most sexually threatened character in this whole series, yet by luck and fortune, she keeps escaping the worst of these threats. I'm thinking her time has to run out soon, but I also think that if there is a next time she is threatened with rape, she'll be the one to rescue herself. As others have theorised on Sansa's misremembering of the kiss, at first she thinks of it as a kind of bragging, then when she is in the Eyrie, she seems to view it almost nonchalantly... that part of her life is over with thing.

There is definitely an evolution in her reaction to the kiss and I think that is supposed to mirror her development.

What I found interesting is that she doesn't just have a memory of the kiss, but an actual sensory imprint of what the kiss felt like. This is why it is hard to accept how she could have just pulled this kiss from nowhere. It says, "She coud still remember, how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own."

This description doesn't actually give much insight into how she truly feels about the kiss, but rather just that she can still remember the touch of his cruel mouth. Continuing on, she says "He took a song and a kiss, and left me with nothing but a bloody cloak."

So she remembers the rest of that scene very clearly, but again the kiss stands out like a sore thumb.

It's strange when she doesn't mention anything about his attempting to rescue her during these memories when she is at the Eyrie. It simply says, "He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky." It almost sounds here as though she was waiting on him to come to her, and is left somewhat disappointed by his only taking the song and kiss :)

It is interesting that she doesn't include the rescuing, does she mention him wanting to rescue her before though, in her memories of the kiss? It would fit with the theory that she has a different reaction and understanding of the kiss each time.

And she dreamed of her wedding night too, of Tyrion’s eyes devouring her as she undressed. Only then he was bigger than Tyrion had any right to be, and when he climbed into the bed his face was scarred only on one side. “I’ll have a song from you,” he rasped, and Sansa woke and found the old blind dog beside her once again. “I wish that you were Lady,” she said.

To my recollection this is the only time she completely changes the setting and the events and its right after Marillon tried to rape her and she does have a dog next to her. So its definitely something related to how unsafe/safe she is feeling at the time. But for example when she just remembers the kiss when talking with Myranda its more like a passing memory, yes I know what happens in bed and I have been kissed before but never you mind that is all in the past. There is no real danger.

[LittleDragon]

I am always surprised people find that scene romantic actually, I remember being terrified for Sansa while reading it. In hindsight their interactions do take a new meaning but the first time I read it I was afraid for Sansa.

I agree with you, for me too, as a woman reader, the scene was more terrifying than romantic. I remember afraid for Sansa, whispering all the time, Sandor, you are not that kind of guy, please don't do that!!! Even though, I like him as an interesting character of a book, and I'm arguing for him in these discussions, because it's interesting to analyse his motivations, to understand him better, to see the development of his character etc., but honestly, he is not a man I would like to see in my bed...

[Arya's Needle Work]

Can someone tell me which book this is in - her "remembering"?

Are we sure he didn't kiss her? I think I remember that scene doing kind of a fade to black kind of thing and then she wakes up and he's gone...

I thought that he kissed her as well. I may be misremembering, but I thought he demanded a song and forced a kiss upon her. Was this in A Clash of Kings? I want to go back and re-read the scene, but I can't remember which book it was in. I do feel that Sansa has an emotional intrigue with Sander. Not exactly an attachment, but an intrigue. He has shown her a form of kindness on several occasions and I believe Sansa now associates Sander with the "Knight in shining armor" type. He may not be the handsome, charming hero that Sansa has read about in her stories, but he saved her during the mob when she could have been in mortal danger.

[littlebird_]

I agree with you, for me too, as a woman reader, the scene was more terrifying than romantic. I remember afraid for Sansa, whispering all the time, Sandor, you are not that kind of guy, please don't do that!!! Even though, I like him as an interesting character of a book, and I'm arguing for him in these discussions, because it's interesting to analyse his motivations, to understand him better, to see the development of his character etc., but honestly, he is not a man I would like to see in my bed...

I feel like we might get a lot of disagreements on the issue but yes I agree, he is definitely fascinating but he is not a romantic hero, I think we are supposed to be on some level bothered by this relationship and what it means just like with her and Littlefinger, I find Littlefinger to be truly creepy unlike Sandor who just comes off creepy but both these relationships are not really healthy for her

[Été]

I thought that he kissed her as well. I may be misremembering, but I thought he demanded a song and forced a kiss upon her. Was this in A Clash of Kings? I want to go back and re-read the scene, but I can't remember which book it was in. I do feel that Sansa has an emotional intrigue with Sander. Not exactly an attachment, but an intrigue. He has shown her a form of kindness on several occasions and I believe Sansa now associates Sander with the "Knight in shining armor" type. He may not be the handsome, charming hero that Sansa has read about in her stories, but he saved her during the mob when she could have been in mortal danger.

The scene during the battle is in one of Sansa's last chapters in ACoK. The first suggestion that he kissed her comes in her second chapter in ASoS, when she's hanging out with the Tyrells, and she alludes to it a bunch of times in ASoS and AFFC.

[LittleDragon]

I feel like we might get a lot of disagreements on the issue but yes I agree, he is definitely fascinating but he is not a romantic hero, I think we are supposed to be on some level bothered by this relationship and what it means just like with her and Littlefinger, I find Littlefinger to be truly creepy unlike Sandor who just comes off creepy but both these relationships are not really healthy for her

Sandor loves her at least for hershelf. Sansa's relation with Littlefinger is really a very-very ill one. He uses her oneside for his conspiracies and uses her as a tool to achieve them, and he is really a good player of the game of thrones. Otherwise he is more or less a goaler for her, and I don't remember if he had ever faced her with the fact that actually she is completely in his power - just a word to Lannisters and Sansa is dead. I'm eventually wondering when she would be acccused for murdering Lysa... Thirdly, evidently he sees Catelyn in her eyes, and his feelings are contreversials towards Catelyn: he loves her, he always loved her, but he hates her for marrying to Ned. So actually Sansa/Alayne is in a constant danger.

[littlebird_]

Sandor loves her at least for hershelf. Sansa's relation with Littlefinger is really a very-very ill one. He uses her oneside for his conspiracies and uses her as a tool to achieve them, and he is really a good player of the game of thrones. Otherwise he is more or less a goaler for her, and I don't remember if he had ever faced her with the fact that actually she is completely in his power - just a word to Lannisters and Sansa is dead. I'm eventually wondering when she would be acccused for murdering Lysa... Thirdly, evidently he sees Catelyn in her eyes, and his feelings are contreversials towards Catelyn: he loves her, he always loved her, but he hates her for marrying to Ned. So actually Sansa/Alayne is in a constant danger.

I don't know if I would call it love but yes he does like her for the right reasons and not because of some obsession with her mother or her claim to Winterfell. On the list of Sansa's potential suitors Sandpr probably is the least wrong one but considering the list itself I am not sure how much of an achievement that is.

I am always creeped out when he says but that was such a dutiful kiss because I keep getting the sense that if one day he decides he is not grooming her well enough he can just about do anything.