Sansa's memory related to Sandor

[Été]

Back to the blood, though. Again, it's probably nothing but it just caught my attention that something was off. The last time we saw the Hound, he was refusing to go back into battle and he wanted to get his hands on some wine. Obviously, he did. So he leaves the gate, finds some wine, gets stinking drunk, pukes, and wanders up to Sansa's room. That sounds like a decent stretch of time. (Or maybe not, because he gets drunk quickly when he and Arya meet the Tickler and co.) Anyway, his hand is sticky with blood but his face is dry. How'd that happen?? And he's drenched in enough blood that he reeks. That's a substantial amount. And he's got vomit on him, which is disgusting. How did Sansa not smell him (or see blood on her doorknob?) when she first came into the room?? It just seems to me that something's up if the sheet of blood on his face had time to dry but his hand is still sticky. I assume it's not his blood because it's not mentioned that he's wounded.

Actually, I'm pretty sure it is the Hound's blood. From Tyrion's POV:

A shadow detached itself from the shadow of the wall, to become a tall man in dark grey armor. Sandor Clegane wrenched off his helm with both hands and let it fall to the ground. The steel was scorched and dented, the left ear of the snarling hound sheared off. A gash above one eye had sent a wash of blood down across the Hound’s old burn scars, masking half his face.

Immediately afterwards, Tyrion leads his charge out of the Mud Gate and the Hound isn't seen again until Sansa's POV. I think the blood on his face was from that cut, and was either dry or drying. The blood on his fingers is presumably from other wounds or other people's blood on his sword.

Sansa thinks he's drunker than she's ever seen him, but when would that be? She usually encounters him when he's on Joff detail, and I doubt he's got 3 sheets to the wind then. I'm reaching but is there another encounter we're missing? He's never been drunk during any of their other encounters. She also assumes he's been sleeping but why? That's probably nothing but her certain knowledge of his level of drunkeness is raising a red flag for me.

Tonight, Matthew, I'm going to be the keeper of the quotes. I'm pretty certain he's drunk just about every time Sansa meets him out-of-hours. The only time I can recall them meeting sober is when she goes up on the roof for some fresh air to find him up there watching the Kingswood burning. He puts his sword to her throat and tells her how awesome killing is, just as the poor girl is getting her first period. Dreamy.

There's the story about the burns:

-“Come, you’re not the only one needs sleep. I’ve drunk too much, and I may need to kill my brother tomorrow.” He laughed again. -His fingers held her jaw as hard as an iron trap. His eyes watched hers. Drunken eyes, sullen with anger. She had to look.

-“I’ll tell you what it was, girl,” he said, a voice from the night, a shadow leaning so close now that she could smell the sour stench of wine on his breath.

Then there's the rather lecherous scene on the serpentine, after she's met Dontos in the godswood for the first time:

“Think I’m so drunk that I’d believe that?” He let go his grip on her arm, swaying slightly as he stood, stripes of light and darkness falling across his terrible burnt face. “You look almost a woman . . . face, teats, and you’re taller too, almost . . . ah, you’re still a stupid little bird, aren’t you? Singing all the songs they taught you . . . sing me a song, why don’t you? Go on. Sing to me. Some song about knights and fair maids. You like knights, don’t you?”

He was scaring her. “T-true knights, my lord.”

“True knights,” he mocked. “And I’m no lord, no more than I’m a knight. Do I need to beat that into you?” Clegane reeled and almost fell. “Gods,” he swore, “too much wine. Do you like wine, little bird? True wine? A flagon of sour red, dark as blood, all a man needs. Or a woman.” He laughed, shook his head. “Drunk as a dog, damn me. You come now. Back to your cage, little bird. I’ll take you there. Keep you safe for the king.”

I think we can safely say he was off his face in the battle too.

I think it was Alexia who mentioned wondering why Sandor hates Tyrion. I agree that Sandor's got an ax to grind following Tyrion shaming him for not going back into battle but it sounds like the Hound has been holding a grudge for quite a while. "Bloody dwarf. Should have killed him. Years ago." So we don't know what the original issue was but it sounds like a showdown in the making.

[A Maidens Fantasy]

He also asked her if she liked wine, said he'd had too much of it, and then announced that wine and women were all that a man needs. It is all way too fresh in my mind from a recent reread, especially since I found his behavior rather amusing there.

Also, I'd think he'd been drinking during the AGOT chapter when he tells her the story of his burns. He was the tourney champion, after all.

I don't think he planned to rape her, but I do think that she was laying on her back with him leaning over her. Actually, I'm not sure what the hell was beating around in his head or if anything coherent was going on in there. He was using the the term "song" as a euphemism for having sex with her (which went straight over her head) earlier in the book and then shows up in her room saying that he was there because she promised him a song. His behavior here is really scary, on all counts.

It is wine OR a woman: "A flagon of sour red, dark as blood, all a man needs. Or a woman". So basically already there he tells her what he wants from her ;-)

Have any of you wondered what would have happened if he had crowned a queen of love and beauty at the tourney? He did win, so it was his right to do so.

I also think she was lying on her back, with him leaning over her. I don't see him as sitting up either.

[Starbird]

It was in the chapter where she was returning from the godswood where she met Dontos for the first time (her second chapter in ACOK). She ran into him on the serpentine (quite literally), he declared himself drunk as a dog after almost falling down, said that she looked almost like a woman (taller, breasts, et al), then said that she was still just a little bird singing what she was told to sing and asked for her to sing him some song about knights and fair maids.

He also asked her if she liked wine, said he'd had too much of it, and then announced that wine and women were all that a man needs. It is all way too fresh in my mind from a recent reread, especially since I found his behavior rather amusing there.

Also, I'd think he'd been drinking during the AGOT chapter when he tells her the story of his burns. He was the tourney champion, after all.

I don't think he planned to rape her, but I do think that she was laying on her back with him leaning over her. Actually, I'm not sure what the hell was beating around in his head or if anything coherent was going on in there. He was using the the term "song" as a euphemism for having sex with her (which went straight over her head) earlier in the book and then shows up in her room saying that he was there because she promised him a song. His behavior here is really scary, on all counts.

I stand corrected! I also find him amusing, when he's not being terrifying. I do recall his being drunk after the tourney, now that you mention it. I don't think he planned to rape her (or would want to), either, and I completely agree with his use of "song" as a euphemism for sex. Okay, so she's got 2 past experiences with a drunk Hound prior to finding him in her bed. :thinking: I guess that's enough to go on to state that he's drunker than ever.

Don't we all :blush:

As for the blood, he could easily have other wounds than the one on his face. It was a pretty rough battle. If it is on his hands, he will probably rip it open when he moves his hand and grips the flagon/knife whatever. An as for Sansa not smelling him, well she is pretty upset about everything and has a right to be distracted. And she probably thinks her room is her safe haven since she goes there, so she focuses on that and doesn't notice the smell.

And I also noticed that he doesn't like Tyrion even way before the battle.

Re: blood - possibly. The description of his stench is just revolting, though.

I'm rethinking my stance on his dislike of Tyrion. Now I'm interpreting it as "if I'd killed him year ago, he wouldn't have been around today to humiliate me." When we first see them, the Hound is mocking Tyrion by pretending not to see him when he's speaking. So, if he's just thought of Tyrion as a pain in the ass all this time, maybe there is no prior history.

[seadragon]

I also think people are way overthinking the battle scene. I don't think he kissed her, and I don't think he did anything to her that wasn't detailed in her thoughts as it was happening. For one thing, it would be pretty lame but also it would really detract from the idea that she is misremembering a kiss.

This is probably because Sansa overthinks about it in the first place :). And every time, it is a little different; we also have a hint that she is an unreliable narrator, so the question is: what really happened??? I hope we’ll have an answer someday…

Following directly on this is when Sansa has her terrifying/erotic dream:

"That night Sansa scarcely slept at all, but tossed and turned just as she had aboard the Merling King. She dreamt of Joffrey dying, but as he clawed at this thoat and the blood ran down across his fingers she saw with horrow that it was her brother Robb. And she dreamed of her wedding night too, of Tyrion's eyes devouring her as she undressed. Only then he was bigger than Tyrion had any right to be, and when he climbed into the bed his face was scarred only on one side. I'll have a song from you," he rasped, and Sansa woke and found the old blind dog beside her once again. "I wish that you were lady," she said.

Ok, so I'm thinking that all these references to this dog being around Sansa are meant to highlight that close relationship she has with Sandor, and the fact that he did and will act as her protector. However, I do think that Sansa's dream of the Hound climbing in her bed speaks volumes about the erotic nature of that relationship and the fact that the Hound can never simply be a protector to her. Even if she doesn't realise she wants more at this time, her dreams and thoughts certainly seem to indicate it.

I forgot this dream sequence… I don’t take it to be important however; she is at the age of awakening sexuality (and raging hormones), so it is kind of normal given the circumstances (LF's wedding night). She probably projects her desire onto Sandor simply because she thinks he’s less creepy than the other men around her. But I agree with the fact that for her he represents a protector. Now, that I think about, dogs represent protection in general, and Sandor, aptly named the Hound, is a sworn shield to Joff, and quite known for his loyalty… It looks like from the beginning, GRRM tried to portray him as THE protector figure.

It was in the chapter where she was returning from the godswood where she met Dontos for the first time (her second chapter in ACOK). She ran into him on the serpentine (quite literally), he declared himself drunk as a dog after almost falling down, said that she looked almost like a woman (taller, breasts, et al), then said that she was still just a little bird singing what she was told to sing and asked for her to sing him some song about knights and fair maids.

I actually found the scene on the serpentine much more unsettling than the bedroom one, but this is probably because of his direct sexual allusions... He knows how to seduce a girl, that one, obviously... ;)

He was using the the term "song" as a euphemism for having sex with her (which went straight over her head) earlier in the book (...).

I've never thought about the song thing as being an allusion to sex, but now it makes me see things under a much creepier light... Ugh!

[Alexia]

I don't think he planned to rape her (or would want to), either, and I completely agree with his use of "song" as a euphemism for sex.

If anything, I thought his deathbed confession to Arya showed was that what he really wanted was for Sansa to want to give him a song (both literal and metaphorical). He spent a book bragging about that song to annoy Arya and then he is crying and says that he took it but she never gave it.

I actually found the scene on the serpentine much more unsettling than the bedroom one, but this is probably because of his direct sexual allusions... He knows how to seduce a girl, that one, obviously... ;)

I mostly laughed at the serpentine scene. He was trying to make a pass at her and he did it in such an inappropriate way, that I couldn't help it.

[Été]

It is wine OR a woman: "A flagon of sour red, dark as blood, all a man needs. Or a woman". So basically already there he tells her what he wants from her ;-)

I read that as meaning wine being all a man/woman might need, rather than wine/women being all a man needs, but it's definitely open to either.

I also think she was lying on her back, with him leaning over her. I don't see him as sitting up either.

It's funny how we've all pictured it differently. My play-by-play has him sitting on the bed the whole time. Sansa thinks he was sleeping in her bed when she came into the room. Something stirs behind her; I think he sat up to grab her wrist and cover her mouth.

Once he's told her not to scream, he lifts his hand away to take his wine from the nighttable and pat the pommel of his sword. The other hand is holding on to her arm throughout. When he "yanks her closer" he's pulling her down towards him. She shuts her eyes and he gets all pissy. "He gave her arm a hard wrench, pulling her around and shoving her down onto the bed," using the other hand to draw his dagger. I think he's still sitting but looming over her, hence he "rose from the bed" at the end of the scene.

If anything, I thought his deathbed confession to Arya showed was that what he really wanted was for Sansa to want to give him a song (both literal and metaphorical). He spent a book bragging about that song to annoy Arya and then he is crying and says that he took it but she never gave it.

He's so ashamed of taking a (literal) song when it wasn't given voluntarily that I find it difficult to believe he would have taken anything else against Sansa's will.

I mostly laughed at the serpentine scene. He was trying to make a pass at her and he did it in such an inappropriate way, that I couldn't help it.

That Sandor. What a catch. :rolleyes:

[Starbird]

If anything, I thought his deathbed confession to Arya showed was that what he really wanted was for Sansa to want to give him a song (both literal and metaphorical). He spent a book bragging about that song to annoy Arya and then he is crying and says that he took it but she never gave it.

I thought the same. He wants to be wanted! :thumbsup:

It's funny how we've all pictured it differently. My play-by-play has him sitting on the bed the whole time. Sansa thinks he was sleeping in her bed when she came into the room. Something stirs behind her; I think he sat up to grab her wrist and cover her mouth.

Once he's told her not to scream, he lifts his hand away to take his wine from the nighttable and pat the pommel of his sword. The other hand is holding on to her arm throughout. When he "yanks her closer" he's pulling her down towards him. She shuts her eyes and he gets all pissy. "He gave her arm a hard wrench, pulling her around and shoving her down onto the bed," using the other hand to draw his dagger. I think he's still sitting but looming over her, hence he "rose from the bed" at the end of the scene.

He's so ashamed of taking a (literal) song when it wasn't given voluntarily that I find it difficult to believe he would have taken anything else against Sansa's will.

That Sandor. What a catch. :rolleyes:

I agree with your entire post. He could easily loom over her while both are seated. I had the same interpretation as to their positions. He hangs on to her wrist with one hand and does all that other stuff with his other hand. So, not only is he a catch, he's ambidextrous!

[seadragon]

That Sandor. What a catch. :rolleyes:

Quite so :D

Now that I've re-read back to back some of his encounters with Sansa off-duty, they look hilarious indeed. He obviously has no idea how to interact with a lady, so he goes all tough and rough, when all Sansa dreams about are gallant knights... It makes one wonder how she can later fantasise about him. He's probably unable to imagine that a girl like Sansa could actually appreciate him. If only instead of waving a knife at her that night, he'd said "Pack your bags, girl, we're leaving!", she'd have left KL without the slightest hesitation...

[Starbird]

If only instead of waving a knife at her that night, he'd said "Pack your bags, girl, we're leaving!", she'd have left KL without the slightest hesitation...

At that point, all he needed was a red rose. :)

[Été]

At that point, all he needed was a red rose. :)

I think a large dose of sobriety would have done a lot more for his cause.

[FacelessGirl]

LOL I just reread the serpintine scene. He was so drunk off his ass I doubt he even realized he was coming on to Sansa. He would have been much guarded with his true feelings if he'd been sober. Haha or a woman... ^_^

[littlebird_]

I just had a disturbing thought what if Sansa adding the kiss into that moment is supposed to parallel how Littlefinger continues to believe had sex with Catelyn.

3. When Lysa lost her virginity to Petyr, Littlefinger was drunk. Did the state he was in cause him to believe that he actually slept with Catelyn? Because of his numerous claims throughout the series that he took both of the Tully girl's maidenheads. I always suspected that he was lying through his teeth deliberately, but now I kind of think that Littlefinger thinks the deed actually happened, at least in his mind.

I think that's quite likely, yes.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Comments_and_Questions/

Yes Lysa tells him she's Cat but you would think that a man as clever as Littlefinger would figure out that he was being lied to but he doesn't because he wants to believe he slept with Cat, just like Sansa wants to believe she kissed the Hound. Who knows if we had a LF POV we would also see that he misremembers some events with Cat to make it seem to him that Cat was actually interested.

This has been my contribution to the crackpot theories of the day :D

[LittleDragon]

If I remember well, Sandor was drunken nearly every time we see him with Sansa. I think the reason is simple: thses were his free time periods, otherwise he was on duty besides Joffrey, and as Varys said somewhere he was drinking and whoring at free time. So Sansa had comparisons to know if he was more drunken than usual or not. The day of the Blackwater Battle must have been one of the worst one for Sandor too, not only for Sansa. He had to face with his biggest fear, fire, all along the day, and lead his people into it. he has done it three times. the discription of the wildfire is really horrible, and he had to experiance and see unspeakable things. At the end of the day, the wildfire consumed not only his courage but his loyalty to House Lannister as well. Someone earlier said that he had no specific purpose with the visit to Sansa. i think maybe unconciously but he wanted also protection. Sansa was needed physical protection, and he was needed emotional support, to speak someone who knows and understands him. Sansa knows much on him, even his biggest secret. The way he told her that he has lost everything is really desperate. He really has lost everything: his position, future, selfestimate etc. He was in a desperate situation, really not knowing how to go further. But Sansa was terrified, forgetting even her usual empty polite words, she was not able to say him any comforting words.

Regarding Sansa's feeling towards him, he is more or less the knight she is dreaming on. Tall, strong, brave, champion of a tournement, shield of the king, warrior in the battlefield etc. If we read again the description of him in the Game of Thrones, if he would not be burned, he would not be ugly. He had saved Ser Loras at the joust, saves Sansa from the mob, tried to save her from beating etc. So I think when Sansa is dreaming about him, and have even sexual dreams about him is because of these elements. But in reality Sansa is scared because of his scares and because of his rudeness. He has been grown up and lived in his whole life in a very macho environment. I don't remember any mentioning of his mother or sisters, so it seems to me to loose her mother at an early age, having a cold childhood, and spent all his life at the Lannister court, so between lies. He have no trust in anyone. This is why it's interesting he telles his story to Sansa. But all the time when he shows his weaknesses, he immidiately treatens her, as if he feels shame of being weak or having emotions. Altogether he doesn't know at all how to express his emotions.

When we see Sandor next time, he is drunken - as usual, and not a surprise regarding his situation - and have to face with fire again, but he does it, so his lost of courage was only temporaly. But all his journey with Arya shows a man, who have really lost everything at the Blackwater Battle, including his reference points, he is in a crises of shelf-definition. But he never touches or abuses her (OK he has hit her with the flat side of a battle axe, but it was to save her life). i think it's important especially because of the roumors of his deeds at Saltapans. He is rude with Arya, and as the girl realises, he threatens her routinly, but these are empty words. He simply don't have tools to express feelings. He is a warrior, but it seems he has killed only at battlefields or tournaments, not as a free time amusement like his brother. The only exeption is the Mycah-story, but i have the impression, he feels ashamed for it. or at least his answer to Arya is more ashamed one than angry.

So altogether, I sincerely hope to see him again somewhere in the story, and see how he faces the fact someone uses his helm and kills in his name, and how he will meet again with Sansa, and how develop their story further.

[FacelessGirl]

I agree with everything you said. That's why the dynamic of Sandor and Sansa is so compelling. They were both in need of support and protection, but couldn't get it from the outside so they somehow fount it in each other. Also, it's been hinted that Sandor had a little sister, but the big bastard Gregor murdered her and their father. Wouldn't be surprised if he offed their mother too...

[Alexia]

When he "yanks her closer" he's pulling her down towards him. She shuts her eyes and he gets all pissy.

This is actually something that tells us how little experience the man has with women. You are supposed to close your eyes when you kiss, staring soulfully into each other's eyes throughout sounds...creepy. Sansa was reacting instinctively to an impending kiss (even though she didn't actually want him to kiss her in the moment).

LOL I just reread the serpintine scene. He was so drunk off his ass I doubt he even realized he was coming on to Sansa. He would have been much guarded with his true feelings if he'd been sober. Haha or a woman... ^_^

Isn't that just the most hilarious come on line ever? :lol: Poor Sandor.

[Été]

I just had a disturbing thought what if Sansa adding the kiss into that moment is supposed to parallel how Littlefinger continues to believe had sex with Catelyn.

Well spotted! I think in Petyr's case it was probably 80% honest mistake, 20% allowing wishful thinking to cancel out any doubt, and that he genuinely believes he slept with Cat.

He was super, super drunk, and Cat was flirting with him earlier in the night (then wouldn't let him kiss her). The fact he called her Cat at the time suggests it wasn't a retcon: either he genuinely thought it was her, or he did know it was Lysa but was consciously fantasising about the other sister.

Regarding Sansa's feeling towards him, he is more or less the knight she is dreaming on. Tall, strong, brave, champion of a tournement, shield of the king, warrior in the battlefield etc. If we read again the description of him in the Game of Thrones, if he would not be burned, he would not be ugly. He had saved Ser Loras at the joust, saves Sansa from the mob, tried to save her from beating etc. So I think when Sansa is dreaming about him, and have even sexual dreams about him is because of these elements. But in reality Sansa is scared because of his scares and because of his rudeness. He has been grown up and lived in his whole life in a very macho environment. I don't remember any mentioning of his mother or sisters, so it seems to me to loose her mother at an early age, having a cold childhood, and spent all his life at the Lannister court, so between lies. He have no trust in anyone. This is why it's interesting he telles his story to Sansa. But all the time when he shows his weaknesses, he immidiately treatens her, as if he feels shame of being weak or having emotions. Altogether he doesn't know at all how to express his emotions.

I actually think one of the most telling things about the Hound is the bit of his deathbed confession that doesn't warrant as much discussion on these boards: "I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her." This is the guy who spits on knights and their vows, but clearly the white cloak does represent something to him - some sort of ideal that he feels he's let down. We also saw that during the battle when Sansa brought him back to his senses and he tore off the cloak.

But all his journey with Arya shows a man, who have really lost everything at the Blackwater Battle, including his reference points, he is in a crises of shelf-definition. But he never touches or abuses her (OK he has hit her with the flat side of a battle axe, but it was to save her life). i think it's important especially because of the roumors of his deeds at Saltapans.

Sorry to nitpick, but when he travels with Arya, there are no horrendous rumours about him - just the gossip about him deserting at the Blackwater. It's not until after Arya leaves him for dead that his helm is abandoned by the Trident for Rorge to find, and wear in his infamies.

This is actually something that tells us how little experience the man has with women. You are supposed to close your eyes when you kiss, staring soulfully into each other's eyes throughout sounds...creepy. Sansa was reacting instinctively to an impending kiss (even though she didn't actually want him to kiss her in the moment).

Sure, but did she close her eyes in anticipation or did it look more like flinching? He was putting himself out there (albeit in a scary forceful way) and I think the slightest hint of fear, hesitation or revulsion would have put him off and made him angry.

[FacelessGirl]

Isn't that just the most hilarious come on line ever? :lol: Poor Sandor.

LOL yes that entire sequence has me laughing on the reread. I'm like damn Sandor, if you wanted a bone all you had to do was beg a little. :P

[LittleDragon]

I agree with everything you said. That's why the dynamic of Sandor and Sansa is so compelling. They were both in need of support and protection, but couldn't get it from the outside so they somehow fount it in each other. Also, it's been hinted that Sandor had a little sister, but the big bastard Gregor murdered her and their father. Wouldn't be surprised if he offed their mother too...

Thanks, it seems I've missed this information. Maybe a re-read will help :-)

[FacelessGirl]

Thanks, it seems I've missed this information. Maybe a re-read will help :-)

No worries, that's why I love this forum. Helps you to read between the lines. ;)

[LittleDragon]

I actually think one of the most telling things about the Hound is the bit of his deathbed confession that doesn't warrant as much discussion on these boards: "I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her." This is the guy who spits on knights and their vows, but clearly the white cloak does represent something to him - some sort of ideal that he feels he's let down. We also saw that during the battle when Sansa brought him back to his senses and he tore off the cloak.

Good point! He doesn't want wealth or knighthood, but want to be a respected member of a small, choosen group. Interesting.

And you are right, Eté, I was misunderstandable, I've meant the Arya scenes were important for us, readers, to help us not to believe the roumors about the Hound, until Brienne got answers.