Sansa's memory related to Sandor

[Été]

<snowcrash>He should have a nuclear bomb in the sidecar as well.</snowcrash>

Rule 35 of fandom: if there is no fanart of it, fanart will be made of it.

(It is known.)

[Starbird]

I'm still thinking on the memory of the kiss bit, and of course this could all be taking us down a completely wrong track, but why is she sooo sure that the kiss happened. Is she suffering from some kind of mental problem? (I mean this in the kindest way).. Is it a survival technique? To misremember things or repress them? And why the kiss part. As Rashka the Demon mentioned I think, Sansa seems like the kind of girl who would definitely remember something as monumental as her first real kiss.

Yes, I mentioned yesterday that young girls often remember the circumstances of their first kiss, who it was with, what time of day, etc. That's a real milestone event. I have a little trouble with Sansa's evidently manufacturing it in her mind and putting it into her memories. I wonder why GRRM created that little plot-wiggle; but I suppose we'll eventually find out.

I'm really struggling with this lapse in memory, too. I remember my first kiss in detail but I think I remember my disappointments even more sharply because I dwelled on them in all of my over-analyzing teenaged angst. Assuming most other teen girls are like I was, it just doesn't make sense to me that Sansa could be so wrong about something so monumental. Especially without exhibiting other mental lapses. As far as I can see, Sansa's mental abilities are being strengthened, not falling apart. After the non-kiss, she's married off to Tyrion and spends most of her time reminding herself not to trust Lannisters. Then she's in the Vale pondering 'what would Alayne do/be/say?' So I conclude that she's mentally sound, which makes this whole kiss thing really vexing.

[Tully to a T]

I don't know, to me everything seemed pretty straightforward with the exception of Sansa's "crawling". Sansa starts backing away from the window and towards the bed on which Sandor is lying, he sits up on the bed and grabs her by her wrist and puts one hand over her mouth, then he is just holding her by her wrist, she tries to wriggle out of his grasp to no result, then as she's still standing he yanks her closer (which is when Sansa thinks he's about to kiss her).. Then Sandor "gave her arm a hard wrench, pulling her around and shoving her down onto the bed." After that he makes her sing at knifepoint, while she's lying down on the bed and he's sitting on it/looming over her. When she's done singing, she reaches up for his cheek and touches it, he rises from the bed for the first time and leaves. I never felt there were more actions in that scene that we didn't get descriptions of. "Crawled out of bed" indeed doesn't sound like Sansa was just lying on the covers on one side and then got up, but I don't think she was under the covers at any point either. Since before she returned to her room Sandor was sleeping there, it could be that the blankets/sheets were in disarray and she had to kick/put them aside when she was getting up or she could have just crawled across the bed and got up from the opposite side. Just my two cents.

This description was exactly how I saw the scene in my mind as well.

[Été]

This is a bit off-topic but I'm actually really curious to see how this scene is handled in the HBO adaptation. I'm coming to view the show as a Cliff Notes for the book-series. Since GRRM writing the Blackwater episode, it'll be interesting to see if this makes the cut as an important part of the story - and if so, which version of events we see on screen (since the camera is an objective narrator). Or if it'll fade to black at any point.

[Starbird]

This is a bit off-topic but I'm actually really curious to see how this scene is handled in the HBO adaptation. I'm coming to view the show as a Cliff Notes for the book-series. Since GRRM writing the Blackwater episode, it'll be interesting to see if this makes the cut as an important part of the story - and if so, which version of events we see on screen (since the camera is an objective narrator). Or if it'll fade to black at any point.

I can't quote the source but I think I did see that this scene will be included. Thank God.

[Auska]

I'm really struggling with this lapse in memory, too. I remember my first kiss in detail but I think I remember my disappointments even more sharply because I dwelled on them in all of my over-analyzing teenaged angst. Assuming most other teen girls are like I was, it just doesn't make sense to me that Sansa could be so wrong about something so monumental. Especially without exhibiting other mental lapses. As far as I can see, Sansa's mental abilities are being strengthened, not falling apart. After the non-kiss, she's married off to Tyrion and spends most of her time reminding herself not to trust Lannisters. Then she's in the Vale pondering 'what would Alayne do/be/say?' So I conclude that she's mentally sound, which makes this whole kiss thing really vexing.

Like I mentioned earlier, everybody alters memories (your first kiss probably didn't happen exactly how you remember it). I suppose it could be a literary device, but in an emotionally stressful situation I think it's just what she for some reason thought happened.

[littlebird_]

I don't have the source but I think he confirmed it on his blog and in one fan encounter that the scene will be included which might just answer our questions if they show a kiss or not. It is going to be hard putting Sansa remembering the events differently into the story in later seasons though. So I don't know maybe they'll just put the kiss in and not give her memory issues, depends on how important GRRM and the producers think this issue actually is.

I'm really struggling with this lapse in memory, too. I remember my first kiss in detail but I think I remember my disappointments even more sharply because I dwelled on them in all of my over-analyzing teenaged angst. Assuming most other teen girls are like I was, it just doesn't make sense to me that Sansa could be so wrong about something so monumental. Especially without exhibiting other mental lapses. As far as I can see, Sansa's mental abilities are being strengthened, not falling apart. After the non-kiss, she's married off to Tyrion and spends most of her time reminding herself not to trust Lannisters. Then she's in the Vale pondering 'what would Alayne do/be/say?' So I conclude that she's mentally sound, which makes this whole kiss thing really vexing.

I do believe she's getting stronger mentally so this is not something to show her 'losing her mind' on the contrary I think this is her making sure she doesn't. She's giving herself a lesson in reality in her mind. As she grows I think she is just creating a memory that serves her grown self. Sansa Stark was a 12 year old scared girl but she isn't so she would not have been as scared as she was, she would have kissed him, she would have done it different.

It goes back to the little details she adds about Alayne, Alayne is 14 not a little girl like Sansa Stark, and then she also wonders about whether or not Alayne should like dancing .. we don't hear her decision but I think Alayne might not, so she's forging a new identity but this starts before the Alayne business, the Sansa Stark she wants to be as opposed to the Sansa Stark she is, she doesn't want to be the little scared girl, she wants to be the girl who kissed him, maybe it also relates to her wanting to be the girl who actually went with him but she couldn't because that Sansa was a scared little girl.

I've been discussing identities and how GRRM is breaking them down to rebuild them back up again in the books and this is something that fits Sansa's story, her identity is slowly lost and she is trying to rebuild a new one.

I do think it also relates to her omitting more stuff out of her narration though, I did check that part in ASOS where Tyrion is asking her about Bran and she does not even once think to herself about her escape, she just omits it from her thoughts. She thinks 'is this one of his Lannister tricks' but then does not continue the thought to think 'what if he found about my escape' plan, it is not in her thoughts. And I keep going back to her AFFC chapters to see if I can spot something but I can't right now but I'll keep trying :D

Like I mentioned earlier, everybody alters memories (your first kiss probably didn't happen exactly how you remember it). I suppose it could be a literary device, but in an emotionally stressful situation I think it's just what she for some reason thought happened.

Deep down I am sure it is just that, she remembers it differently because of stress and it becomes a plot point the next time she sees Sandor but its not as exciting as the thought of Sansa telling us all sweet little innocent lies as she tells the story, at least for me :D

[littlespider]

I can't quote the source but I think I did see that this scene will be included. Thank God.

One of the commenters on Not a Blog asked if it would be included. He replied in the comments that it would. The link is somewhere over on the GoT show threads but i don't know how to link it.

I've got my own reading of the BBB (Blackwater Battle Bedroom) scene but don't have time to post it right now, grr..

[Été]

I don't have the source but I think he confirmed it on his blog and in one fan encounter that the scene will be included which might just answer our questions if they show a kiss or not. It is going to be hard putting Sansa remembering the events differently into the story in later seasons though. So I don't know maybe they'll just put the kiss in and not give her memory issues, depends on how important GRRM and the producers think this issue actually is.

Found it. Shibby! ^_^

[brashcandy]

It's interesting that Sansa only starts remembering the kiss when she is speaking to Margaery's cousins; before then I don't think she mentions it. So of course this supports the idea that it could all be a figment of her imagination. Which is to some degree troubling, since as others have noted, she doesn't seem to be losing her mind or even prone to fantasies anymore. Contrary, she is getting quite stronger and assertive.

Let's remember what started us down this theory. It had to do with GRRM stating somewhere that he deliberately included this wrong memory in Sansa's story and it is something of a habit with her... Am I correct?

So, let's go with GRRM and assume that the kiss bit is important, but important how and why??

We never see Sandor reminiscing about any kiss, although we do know that he has pretty strong feelings for her. You don't just want to fuck someone bloody and rip their heart out if you feel all nonchalant about them.

So, let's imagine the kiss really did happen in the room. Why wouldn't she have mentioned it when she got up and went under the cloak. Something like "Oh my god, I can't believe he kissed me, or I kissed him!" So given that we see no reaction or reference to anything like that it would seem to indicate that the kiss did not take place, at least not there.

I know I'm reading too much into that scene, believe me I know :) But what if those soft footseps retreating were not the Hound's. Maybe someone outside listening in to their conversation... Far fetched I know!

I find it interesting that sometime after she remembers that the Hound had come to her room to take her away that night; but this is strange in that I didn't think this was his express purpose in coming to her room, and I didn't think Sansa thought so either. He does mention that she would be safe with him and no one would hurt her, but it was really random interjection in their conversation, and I don't think Sansa even responds.

So is she simply projecting her fantasies onto Sandor? She wants to be kissed, so she imagines he kisses her. She wanted to be rescued, so she imagines that he came to rescue her. We know that Sansa does have a habit of seeing people how she wants to see them until she can no longer deny the stark :) truth about them, i.e. Joffrey and Cersei, Ser Dontos and Loras. But surely we assume that now she is at the Vale, these blinders have been wiped clean... so I'm lost!

She is at the Vale now with LF and the last we know is that he plans to marry her off to Harry the Heir. She will not have to pretend to be Alayne much longer if this plan is real and comes to fruition... So how could a memory about a kiss that never happened figure into this?

[Starbird]

Found it. Shibby! ^_^

Thanks! I was looking for it everywhere! Highly anticipating that scene. I hope they do it justice.

[Starbird]

It's interesting that Sansa only starts remembering the kiss when she is speaking to Margaery's cousins; before then I don't think she mentions it. So of course this supports the idea that it could all be a figment of her imagination. Which is to some degree troubling, since as others have noted, she doesn't seem to be losing her ... Contrary, she is getting quite stronger and assertive.

...

So given that we see no reaction or reference to anything like that it would seem to indicate that the kiss did not take place, at least not there.

But what if those soft footseps retreating were not the Hound's. Maybe someone outside listening in to their conversation... Far fetched I know!

... the Hound had come to her room to take her away that night; but this is strange in that I didn't think this was his express purpose in coming to her room, and I didn't think Sansa thought so either.

So is she simply projecting her fantasies onto Sandor? She wants to be kissed, so she imagines he kisses her. She wanted to be rescued, so she imagines that he came to rescue her.

You raise some interesting questions, BrashCandy. Here's what I think:

1) I think Sansa is mentally sound and not suffering from any PTSD or some other affliction.

2) I think she and the Hound were alone the whole time. When she's on her way back to her room, she only passes 1 looter. There was a hell of a battle going on outside and I doubt anyone was paying a lot of attention to where someone like the Hound was, especially since he was disgraced by Tyrion.

3) I'm not sure the Hound came into her room with a plan. He knew he was going to have to bolt from KL but he waited for her to come back to her room. Maybe he just put it out there as a, "hey, I'm leaving, wanna come with?" and was feeling rejected when she didn't jump on the idea, or he might have just wanted some comforting before he took off. Either way, I don't think any premeditation on his part is significant.

4) I don't think there was a kiss at all. One or the other of them would certainly have reacted to it, either just afterwards or later in memory. She's definitely projecting her fantasies onto Sandor.

5) I think it's GRRM who's toying with us. The timing of that scene is just suspect. The crawling out of bed, the wet/dry blood . . . I just can't let it go. :-)

I think it's possible that we haven't yet seen whatever it is that the non-kiss is supposed to tie in to. I'm going to have to go back and see what other definitive statements Sansa makes.

[Été]

5) I think it's GRRM who's toying with us. The timing of that scene is just suspect. The crawling out of bed, the wet/dry blood . . . I just can't let it go. :-)

I agree with your entire post, but - what wet/dry blood? Sorry, I must have missed that bit.

When we see the Hound at the Mud Gate in Tyrion's POV, half his face is covered in blood from the last sortie; by the time Sansa sees him it's dried. I don't recall any other blood (though Sansa should still be 'flowering', not sure if that's relevant at all).

[Starbird]

Okay but you're assuming she was lying down. If she was standing and was then shoved down onto the bed, I'm thinking she's sitting. It's hard to shove someone down onto a bed so their entire body is on the mattress. That wouldn't require a crawl out. Another thing, the Hound and his cloak were bloody so wouldn't there be (other people's) blood on her sheets? Who wants to curl up in that? Yuck.

Another point: during that scene, blood is wet and dry and wet again, if I'm remembering correctly. If someone has the quote handy, I'd be grateful. I don't remember exactly what but I think it's the blood on Sandor's face. It's fresh at one point, which is strange, given that he's been waiting for her for some length of time. Then it's wet again later. I don't think his tears were enough to saturate all the blood (which wouldn't make it like-new again anyway) so it struck me as fishy.

I agree with your entire post, but - what wet/dry blood? Sorry, I must have missed that bit.

When we see the Hound at the Mud Gate in Tyrion's POV, half his face is covered in blood from the last sortie; by the time Sansa sees him it's dried. I don't recall any other blood (though Sansa should still be 'flowering', not sure if that's relevant at all).

It's obnoxious to quote oneself so I apologize. I loaned ACOK to a slow reader so I can't pull the exact reference but there's blood (on his face?) that's dry in the beginning of the scene but then it's wet again later. Maybe it's nothing but it just seemed strange to me, timing-wise. Actually, it might be on his sword or cloak . . .

[Été]

It's obnoxious to quote oneself so I apologize. I loaned ACOK to a slow reader so I can't pull the exact reference but there's blood (on his face?) that's dry in the beginning of the scene but then it's wet again later. Maybe it's nothing but it just seemed strange to me, timing-wise. Actually, it might be on his sword or cloak . . .

Ahhh gotcha now. Here's the quote:

Some instinct made her lift her hand and cup his cheek with her fingers. The room was too dark for her to see him, but she could feel the stickiness of the blood, and a wetness that was not blood.

I think the blood is sticky because he'd cried over where it had dried (or mostly dried).

[LittleDragon]

Well, wasn't Dontos all over her? He was always asking for a kiss from his Jonquil. Or maybe I missed it because I was cringing. Unless I'm missing something, Sansa kisses Dontos (cheek only?), Tyrion at their wedding, and LF at the Vale. If she kissed Sweet Robin at all, I would think it would be as one kisses a child. I don't think she and Joffrey kissed. She was later repulsed by his lips but doesn't mention kissing them, if I remember correctly.

I think the kiss to Dontos was cheeks only, it was some kind of play between them behaving as they were actors of a song. Regarding Sweetrobin, it is in the Feast for Crows, last Alayne scene:

"Before she could summon the servants, however, Sweetrobin trew his skinny arms around her and kissed her. it was a little boys kiss, and clumsy. Everything Robert Arryn did was clumsy. If I close my eyes I can pretend he is the Knight of flowers. Ser Loras had given Sansa Stark a red rose once, but he never kissed her... and no Tyrell would ever kiss Alayne Stone. Pretty she was, she had been born on the wrong side of the blanket.

As the boy's lips touched her own she found hershelf thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak.

It made no matter. that day was done and so was Sansa.

Alayne pushed her little lord away. "That's enough. You can kiss me again when we reach the Gates, if you keep your word.""

Reading these paragraphs for the second time (I've just finished the Feast for Crows three days ago...), I think this part is more and more interesting! Robert's kiss seems to be a long one, she has some time thinking along it, so it is not a short something on the cheeks as one could expect from a boy of eight. She has time to think to Ser Loras and her disappointment because of the rose, thinking about her new status as a bastard daugther and the limited possibilities it means, and also to a kiss given by a cruel mouth. first time, I thought it's Littlefinger's kiss in the garden, but she countinues the memory with the scenes in her room. Is it possible she mixes the two events? Than she continues as it's no matter, it was Sansa, who doesn't count any more. and she pushes the little lord away (as if this time she faced someone less strong than her and she could ended a non-wanted kiss), but promises more ones if he does something promised. she starts to use kissing to achieve something she wants. this is why I think she has stepped to a dangerous road.

[littlebird_]

5) I think it's GRRM who's toying with us. The timing of that scene is just suspect. The crawling out of bed, the wet/dry blood . . . I just can't let it go. :-)

I think it's possible that we haven't yet seen whatever it is that the non-kiss is supposed to tie in to. I'm going to have to go back and see what other definitive statements Sansa makes.

I definitely feel like GRRM is toying with me :D

Yes, I read her chapters in AFFC today and I really was unable to see how a non-kiss could be important in the way her story is going, I don't know really.

While trying to make sense of it all I decided to visit tv tropes Unreliable Narrator don't click it though :D They actually mention Sansa and Sandor also calling it the Bodyguard Crush.

but this one was interesting

To a degree, Nick Carraway in The Great Gatsby - most events that he describes you can accept are true, but there's one point where he claims to have said something to Gatsby that it's possible he merely wishes he'd said. It also seems possible that he's intentionally omitted some pieces of information about Gatsby due to his desire to see and portray Gatsby as in a favourable light.

[Été]

I definitely feel like GRRM is toying with me :D

Yes, I read her chapters in AFFC today and I really was unable to see how a non-kiss could be important in the way her story is going, I don't know really.

Apparently her first chapter in TWoW introduces a new plotline - presumably one which will lead her through to the finale - so I think we're theorising from a dead end here. The imminent twist could completely change the game. I really hope GRRM uses it as one of the preview chapters.

[littlebird_]

Apparently her first chapter in TWoW introduces a new plotline - presumably one which will lead her through to the finale - so I think we're theorising from a dead end here. The imminent twist could completely change the game. I really hope GRRM uses it as one of the preview chapters.

OMG really, I don't know if I am excited or scared right now :D do you know where GRRM said this? Would he put something with a twist in his preview chapters?

Reading these paragraphs for the second time (I've just finished the Feast for Crows three days ago...), I think this part is more and more interesting! Robert's kiss seems to be a long one, she has some time thinking along it, so it is not a short something on the cheeks as one could expect from a boy of eight. She has time to think to Ser Loras and her disappointment because of the rose, thinking about her new status as a bastard daugther and the limited possibilities it means, and also to a kiss given by a cruel mouth. first time, I thought it's Littlefinger's kiss in the garden, but she countinues the memory with the scenes in her room. Is it possible she mixes the two events? Than she continues as it's no matter, it was Sansa, who doesn't count any more. and she pushes the little lord away (as if this time she faced someone less strong than her and she could ended a non-wanted kiss), but promises more ones if he does something promised. she starts to use kissing to achieve something she wants. this is why I think she has stepped to a dangerous road.

I think she's thinking of her imagined kiss with Sandor. But yes this is also what Littlefinger is conditioning her for, 'look I have a present for you, don't I get a kiss' it implies that if she kisses him less dutifully she will get more from him, its interesting that rather than using it with Littlefinger she uses with Robert. I think this has always been part of her story (and her parallel arc with Cersei) she's a pretty girl who until now had not fully realized her effect on men and more importantly she had not had a sexual awakening, through her thoughts of Sandor we know she is so what will she do once she realizes the power she does have? I think this is why we have the Harry arc, to get to see her consciously manipulate a man using her charms until now it has happened without her intending it but because of Littlefinger's plan's she now will actually have to use them and what will she learn from that experience?

[LittleDragon]

It's interesting that Sansa only starts remembering the kiss when she is speaking to Margaery's cousins; before then I don't think she mentions it.

Maybe it's still a childish thing, she tries to convince hershelf that there are mysterous or interesting elements of her life too.

So, let's go with GRRM and assume that the kiss bit is important, but important how and why??

To answer to Brashcandy's question above: if we presume that Sansa is on the way to develop a new personality called Alayne, and sink more and more deeply in lies and conspiracies lead by Littlefinger, this kiss element can be important when she meets next time with Sandor. I can imagine some conversiation like:

Sandor: what are you doing Sansa? How can you see into your mirror after doing so many shameful things and lies? Where is my innocent Littlebird?

Sansa: How you dare to say it burned-face, it's your fault, your kiss was the first step in this way! you've kissed me and left alone with all my shame!

Sandor: I've never kissed you!

Sansa: yes, you do, after the battle.

Sandor: stupid girl, i've never kissed you, let me show it (and kisses her)

Sansa: huh, OK, I was misremembering, to such a kiss I should have had a clear memory. It was so easy to hate you to push me to this road of lies, but now I have to find someone else to blame for it. Was it Lord Baelish perheps?

Sandor: good choice. Shall I kill him?

Sansa: Oh, yes please.

Or something like that... Pshychologically, after a time she will need to have someone to blame for the situation in which she is or she will be. Regarding the way how this misremembering is more and more serious and complicated, Sandor can be an easy choice.