Sansa's memory related to Sandor

[seadragon]

I actually think one of the most telling things about the Hound is the bit of his deathbed confession that doesn't warrant as much discussion on these boards: "I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her." This is the guy who spits on knights and their vows, but clearly the white cloak does represent something to him - some sort of ideal that he feels he's let down. We also saw that during the battle when Sansa brought him back to his senses and he tore off the cloak.

I agree with you here. I think that he actually believes in the ideals linked to knighthood, but despise the real knights who take vows, and do nothing to respect them. He says something on these lines several times.

Sorry to nitpick, but when he travels with Arya, there are no horrendous rumours about him - just the gossip about him deserting at the Blackwater.

Actually Sandor has quite a reputation of a dangerous man. Eddard mentions it two or three times, Tyrion too as well as some other people. On the other hand, no one seems to think he'd do something really ugly: Thoros or Lord Beric says that he won't attack them during their sleep, and Jamie doesn't believe he's behind the Saltpans attack. Probably his reputation comes from being a formidable warrior, but one with a really bad temper :).

LittleDragon mentions Arya and how Sandor treats her quite decently in spite of his harsh words (again - he is really good at communication and social interactions!). Someone else has already mentioned somewhere here the Sandor- Arya interaction and I think it is almost as interesting as with Sansa. Arya seems to have a lot in common with Sandor, and to me it looks like she is on her way to become a Sandor in skirts – well, she is more often than not in breeches, but you get my point. They are both full of anger and it is rage and hate that keep them going; Sandor’s only wish is to kill his brother, and Arya… well, she has an entire list of people she wishes to see dead. Arya has lost everything and everyone she loved, and Sandor lost all his dreams around the age of 6 or 7, when his brother shoved his face into the fire. There is that passage about Arya having a hole where her heart had been, that shows how terribly lonely she has become, while no one seems to like Sandor, even less love. And they are both dangerous in the sense that they’re able to kill if needed, without too much thinking about. On the other hand, they are still capable of a healthy dose of compassion, which disqualifies them for the psychopath slot. But Sandor finally seems to find redemption in the Quiet Isle, while Arya gets training to become an assassin. Maybe the Faceless Men are just a respite for Arya, a place where she is (more or less) safe and where she has the time to breathe and to settle down a little after being on the run for so long. I am not sure however she will become a faceless one, at least not as long as she keeps her connection to Nymeria and continues to recite her list of “future dead people”.

This said, I am curious to see how Arya will evolve, and I am quite eager to see her reunited with Sansa and see how they interact. And I’d also like to see Arya meeting again Sandor too, just for her reaction given that she thinks him dead:

A.: “Sandor, you’re not dead ????”

S.: “Do I look dead, girl? Rar!” - runs quickly to make penance, because he’s just realised he broke his vow of silence…

[littlespider]

That Sandor. What a catch. :rolleyes:

Yeah. Re: serpentine exchange. My reaction was "smoove, dawg."

I completely agree with his use of "song" as a euphemism for sex.

I sort of like this idea. Perhaps he has been reading his Chaucer and follows the "making melody" euphemism.

Sure, but did she close her eyes in anticipation or did it look more like flinching?

It was definitely not anticipation. She thinks very clearly to herself "He was too strong to fight." She closes her eyes wishing for it to be over. I don't actually think he was trying to kiss her; rather, I think he was trying to make her look at his face again. Poor bastard. But it's a terrifying moment for Sansa.

Regarding the Tyrion issues: besides the comment "Bloody dwarf. Should have killed him" there's a very early moment in clash of kings when Tyrion and the Hound look at each other. This is right after Joffrey's name day tournament, Sansa's "rescue" of Dontos, and right when Tyrion returns to King's Landing. Sansa sees Tyrion's mismatched eyes, and notes that both "are cool" when looking at Sandor. Possibly this is because Tyrion resents Sandor for sort of being a dick to him (the "spirits of the air" routine must get kind of old). Or it could be more evidence that the dislike is mutual and not just Sandor's hatred for Tyrion after the humiliation of the Blackwater. I'm interested to see if there's a story behind this, though I think it's possible that they just really dislike each other.

[Alexia]

Sansa sees Tyrion's mismatched eyes, and notes that both "are cool" when looking at Sandor. Possibly this is because Tyrion resents Sandor for sort of being a dick to him (the "spirits of the air" routine must get kind of old).

I thought that was related to his irritation that Sandor had been named to the KG in place of Selmy, as Tyrion's entire mission there was to start fixing the botch of things that Cersei had made.

[littlespider]

sorry for the double post.

[littlespider]

I thought that was related to his irritation that Sandor had been named to the KG in place of Selmy, as Tyrion's entire mission there was to start fixing the botch of things that Cersei had made.

This is definitely a possibility as well. Hadn't thought of that.

Though it's so tempting to speculate on some terrible scandalous backstory to their mutual dislike! :)

[seadragon]

Regarding the Tyrion issues: besides the comment "Bloody dwarf. Should have killed him" there's a very early moment in clash of kings when Tyrion and the Hound look at each other. This is right after Joffrey's name day tournament, Sansa's "rescue" of Dontos, and right when Tyrion returns to King's Landing. Sansa sees Tyrion's mismatched eyes, and notes that both "are cool" when looking at Sandor. Possibly this is because Tyrion resents Sandor for sort of being a dick to him (the "spirits of the air" routine must get kind of old). Or it could be more evidence that the dislike is mutual and not just Sandor's hatred for Tyrion after the humiliation of the Blackwater. I'm interested to see if there's a story behind this, though I think it's possible that they just really dislike each other.

I have the impression that they both dislike each other previously to events in the books. Tyrion could envy Sandor for being this big guy, "muscled like a bull"; plus, Sandor is quite insolent with him, while being only a sworn sword relatively lowborn. Sandor is also one of the queen's men, and Tyrion and Cersei positively hate each other. On the other hand, Sandor sees Tyrion just like an arrogant dwarf, who'd be no one if it weren't for his birth, while he is only a sworn shield despite his fighting skills. It must also be linked to Joff: Tyrion dislikes the boy at least as much as he hates Cersei (I love the slapping scene! :)), while Sandor appears genuinely attached to him and doesn't like the way Tyrion treats him.

[Alexia]

It must also be linked to Joff: Tyrion dislikes the boy at least as much as he hates Cersei (I love the slapping scene! :)), while Sandor appears genuinely attached to him and doesn't like the way Tyrion treats him.

I really think that Sandor despises Joffrey. He hears that Joffrey died and he doesn't even care. He was much more concerned about the Sansa news he got. He also seemed to be laughing IIRC when Tyrion slapped Joffrey, telling him that the prince would remember that.

[littlespider]

I love the slapping scene!

Moi aussi. Looking forward to the second season and the riot in KL: Joff's face date with dung and the moment when Tyrion kicks the crap out of him after the return to the Red Keep should be very popular moments!

As should the Hound's heroic rescue of Sansa, if they pull it off well.

[seadragon]

I really think that Sandor despises Joffrey. He hears that Joffrey died and he doesn't even care. He was much more concerned about the Sansa news he got. He also seemed to be laughing IIRC when Tyrion slapped Joffrey, telling him that the prince would remember that.

Actually, when Sandor hears Tyrion is accused of the murder, he says that the dwarf should be dropped in wildfire and burnt, which coming from him is quite a strong statement. I'd say that probably he was really attached to Joff in the beginning - he knows him since he was a baby - but at some point he began to realise he's in reality a spoiled brat, on his way to become a monster. And, as he says it at some point, even the most faithful dog can have enough of being kicked.

[brashcandy]

Regarding Sandor's hatred of Tyrion, I always surmised that it was because Tyrion, although a dwarf and deformed, was a lot more witty and fortunate than Sandor could ever be. If yo think about it, Tyrion is a lot "cooler" than Sandor. He has a way with words and is able to get women easily, given that he is a Lannister. Who knows what Sandor's status is with women really? Outside of the vague references that he or others make - we never see him with a woman directly. Tyrion also really loathes Joffrey and would have obviously not respected the Hound's role as Joffrey's protector.

In regards to him using song as a metaphor for sex, I personally never saw it that way. I felt he was simply mocking Sansa's ideals with the whole life is a sweet song bit. It's a kind of grotesque teasing, with him openly mocking the idea that she could ever sing a song to someone like him. This is why I think he has those two powerful emotional outbursts during the Battle scene and later with Arya. Ironically, big bad Sandor Clegane is still a man who wants to be sung to :), and he wants a woman to want to sing to him, but in many ways he doesn't expect it, so he feels the need to force Sansa but regrets it afterward.

I would have given anything to hear his thoughts that night after he left Sansa's room and I wonder if he took any small keepsake of Sansa's to remember her. That would be sweet:)

[Été]

Tyrion seems to have a certain amount of regard for the Hound. His first admonition to Joffrey after the riot is that he's killed Clegane with his idiocy; it's the Hound he sends back out to look for the missing nobles. Sandor just doesn't like taking orders from Tyrion. He's been serving the Lannisters since he was a young teenager from the sounds of things and has no problem taking orders from Joff or Cersei. I agree that he seems - at best - indifferent to Joffrey. So what's Tyrion done over the years to piss him off so much? I wonder what he knows about Tysha,

[brashcandy]

I read so many great theories about what that kiss can mean. I read some saying how it seemed that something was missing in that scene, something was left out.

We know Sandor didn't kiss her, he was telling it while he was dying.

Now a frightening thought sent shivers down my back, and just the very idea gave me the no, no, no, no, no.

What if it was someone else on that night, kissed her and raped her as well. And the reason she envisions a kiss, because it did happen, it just she is blocking it out from her memory. And since that night Sandor was indeed there and she does have some sort of feelings towards him, she remebers him kissing her.

Please write as many things as you can to dismiss this idea.

I have put forth the rather wild theory that those footsteps she heard leaving might not have been Sandor's but someone outside the door listening, and that Sandor remains in the room to kiss her and it is just never recorded in her narrative or that when she touches his face she kisses him then.

I don't think however that anything as serious as rape ever happened, either by Sandor or anyone else. Sansa seems to still be very innocent and not suffering from any kind of trauma that an event like that would bring on. However, I must admit that I did have the fleeting thought of whether or not Sansa could be pregnant due to her complaints of feeling quite nauseous at Three Fingers with LF. But I quickly decided that the reason given was the reason, seasickness :)

[FacelessGirl]

In regards to him using song as a metaphor for sex, I personally never saw it that way. I felt he was simply mocking Sansa's ideals with the whole life is a sweet song bit. It's a kind of grotesque teasing, with him openly mocking the idea that she could ever sing a song to someone like him. This is why I think he has those two powerful emotional outbursts during the Battle scene and later with Arya. Ironically, big bad Sandor Clegane is still a man who wants to be sung to :), and he wants a woman to want to sing to him, but in many ways he doesn't expect it, so he feels the need to force Sansa but regrets it afterward.

I would have given anything to hear his thoughts that night after he left Sansa's room and I wonder if he took any small keepsake of Sansa's to remember her. That would be sweet:)

The way you just described the song, sex is the first thing that came to my mind metaphorically. Sandor is clearly attracted to Sansa, so any form of affection from her to him and vice versa would have at least a hint of eroticism. Feel free to disagree if you want. :)

[brashcandy]

Tyrion seems to have a certain amount of regard for the Hound. His first admonition to Joffrey after the riot is that he's killed Clegane with his idiocy; it's the Hound he sends back out to look for the missing nobles. Sandor just doesn't like taking orders from Tyrion. He's been serving the Lannisters since he was a young teenager from the sounds of things and has no problem taking orders from Joff or Cersei. I agree that he seems - at best - indifferent to Joffrey. So what's Tyrion done over the years to piss him off so much? I wonder what he knows about Tysha,

Interesting thought :) Maybe Sandor does know where whores go after all. I would have a hard time picturing the Hound engaging in this activity, though it's not impossible, but was he even working for the Lannisters as yet? If so, and he knows what happened to Tysha, it could be one explanation for why he feels such hatred for the man, but this would imply that Tysha was somehow personally connected to Sandor, for him to get so worked up. I don't see him reacting so violently over a random girl that was married to the dwarf.

[brashcandy]

The way you just described the song, sex is the first thing that came to my mind metaphorically. Sandor is clearly attracted to Sansa, so any form of affection from her to him and vice versa would have at least a hint of eroticism. Feel free to disagree if you want. :)

Haha! Yeah I read it over and sex does come to mind! But no, no :) I still don't think he was referencing sex. I think in this case he just wanted to tease her about her foolish ideals, but in the end he realises that songs and life do have a sweetness to them.

[littlespider]

I wonder if he took any small keepsake of Sansa's to remember her. That would be sweet:)

Well, you know that later that week, Sansa was looking through her chest and realized that half her smallclothes were missing.

Sorry, couldn't resist! Carry on...

[FacelessGirl]

Haha! Yeah I read it over and sex does come to mind! But no, no :) I still don't think he was referencing sex. I think in this case he just wanted to tease her about her foolish ideals, but in the end he realises that songs and life do have a sweetness to them.

Totally agree, I mean imagine it: having your brother Gregor singing the Bear and the Maiden Fair while kicking your ass everyday. Songs would lose their sweetness to me, too.

[FacelessGirl]

Well, you know that later that week, Sansa was looking through her chest and realized that half her smallclothes were missing.

Sorry, couldn't resist! Carry on...

Well I do declare, Miss. littlespider. ;)

[Été]

Interesting thought :) Maybe Sandor does know where whores go after all. I would have a hard time picturing the Hound engaging in this activity, though it's not impossible, but was he even working for the Lannisters as yet? If so, and he knows what happened to Tysha, it could be one explanation for why he feels such hatred for the man, but this would imply that Tysha was somehow personally connected to Sandor, for him to get so worked up. I don't see him reacting so violently over a random girl that was married to the dwarf.

The clash of personalities and power discrepancy (physically-powerful Sandor is 100% subordinate to socially-powerful Tyrion) explain any low-grade animosity all along. Tyrion pisses Sandor off; usually the Hound can deal with stuff that annoys him by hitting it, but Tyrion is untouchable. At the battle of the Blackwater, it sounds like Sandor is one of the few left behind when Tyrion rallies the men and that's got to smart. He's broken in combat, which is pretty much all he's good for as a man-at-arms.

OMG Tysha was Sandor's long-lost sister!!! j/k

That whole episode is so inherently distasteful, I wonder how the Hound reacted to it if he was around back then. It's another case of the Lannisters having a woman at their mercy, far from her home; the Hound seems to have personal ideas about how to treat young girls who've wound up in a den of lions. And as of ACoK it's definitely the biggest skeleton in Tyrion's cupboard.

[seadragon]

The clash of personalities and power discrepancy (physically-powerful Sandor is 100% subordinate to socially-powerful Tyrion) explain any low-grade animosity all along. Tyrion pisses Sandor off; usually the Hound can deal with stuff that annoys him by hitting it, but Tyrion is untouchable. At the battle of the Blackwater, it sounds like Sandor is one of the few left behind when Tyrion rallies the men and that's got to smart. He's broken in combat, which is pretty much all he's good for as a man-at-arms.

That's exactly what I think! Now, maybe they simply dislike each other with no particular reason. However, Sandor is clearly humiliated by Tyrion (a dwarf!) during the battle, and it's probably when he decides he is done with the Lannisters. What is interesting, is that actually Tyrion realises almost immediately that he acted in a wrong way towards Sandor, as he clearly sees that the Hound is terrified by the fire raging on the river.