Sansa's memory related to Sandor

[Été]

That's exactly what I think! Now, maybe they simply dislike each other with no particular reason. However, Sandor is clearly humiliated by Tyrion (a dwarf!) during the battle, and it's probably when he decides he is done with the Lannisters. What is interesting, is that actually Tyrion realises almost immediately that he acted in a wrong way towards Sandor, as he clearly sees that the Hound is terrified by the fire ranging on the river.

Is that then, or during the bread riot, or both? I seem to remember Flea Bottenham *cough* I mean Bottom burning in the riots.

[Alexia]

Actually, when Sandor hears Tyrion is accused of the murder, he says that the dwarf should be dropped in wildfire and burnt, which coming from him is quite a strong statement. I'd say that probably he was really attached to Joff in the beginning - he knows him since he was a baby - but at some point he began to realise he's in reality a spoiled brat, on his way to become a monster. And, as he says it at some point, even the most faithful dog can have enough of being kicked.

No way, he said that because Tyrion married Sansa. Here is the quote.

"King Joffrey is dead, you know," he added. "Poisoned at his own wedding feast."

"So uch for my brave brothers of the Kingsguard." The Hound gave a snort of contempt. "Who killed him?"

"The Imp, its thought. Him and his little wife."

"What wife?"

"I forgot, you've been hiding under a rock. The northern girl, Winterfell's daughter. We heard she killed the king with a spell, and afterward changed into a wolf with big leather wings like a bat and flew out a tower window. But she left the dwarf behind and Cersei means to have his head."

That's stupid, Arya thought. Sansa only knows songs, not spells, and she'd never marry the Imp.

The Hound sat on the bench closest to the door. His mouth twitched, but only the burned side. "She ought to dip him in wildfire and cook him. Or tickle him till the moon turns black." He raised his wine cup and drained it straightaway.

*snip*

"The little bird flew away, did she? Well, bloody good for her. She shit on the Imp's head and flew off.

"They'll find her," said Polliver. "If it takes half the gold in Casterly Rock."

"A pretty girl, I hear," said the Tickler. "Honey sweet." He smacked his lips and smiled.

"And courteous," the Hound agreed. "A proper little lady. Not like her bloody sister."

The man showed complete indifference when they said that Joffrey was killed, but he had to sit down to absorb the news of Sansa's marriage to Tyrion. And as an aside, I think it is rather interesting that the first thing the Tickler mentions is how pretty he heard Sansa was but Sandor Clegane promptly responds by referencing her courtesy. I really think that Sansa's elegance and courtesy are traits that attract him to her.

[FacelessGirl]

No way, he said that because Tyrion married Sansa. Here is the quote.

"King Joffrey is dead, you know," he added. "Poisoned at his own wedding feast."

"So uch for my brave brothers of the Kingsguard." The Hound gave a snort of contempt. "Who killed him?"

"The Imp, its thought. Him and his little wife."

"What wife?"

"I forgot, you've been hiding under a rock. The northern girl, Winterfell's daughter. We heard she killed the king with a spell, and afterward changed into a wolf with big leather wings like a bat and flew out a tower window. But she left the dwarf behind and Cersei means to have his head."

That's stupid, Arya thought. Sansa only knows songs, not spells, and she'd never marry the Imp.

The Hound sat on the bench closest to the door. His mouth twitched, but only the burned side. "She ought to dip him in wildfire and cook him. Or tickle him till the moon turns black." He raised his wine cup and drained it straightaway.

*snip*

"The little bird flew away, did she? Well, bloody good for her. She shit on the Imp's head and flew off.

"They'll find her," said Polliver. "If it takes half the gold in Casterly Rock."

"A pretty girl, I hear," said the Tickler. "Honey sweet." He smacked his lips and smiled.

"And courteous," the Hound agreed. "A proper little lady. Not like her bloody sister."

The man showed complete indifference when they said that Joffrey was killed, but he had to sit down to absorb the news of Sansa's marriage to Tyrion. And as an aside, I think it is rather interesting that the first thing the Tickler mentions is how pretty he heard Sansa was but Sandor Clegane promptly responds by referencing her courtesy. I really think that Sansa's elegance and courtesy are traits that attract him to her.

I interpreted that scene as a guy who was uncomfortable with another guy discussing the beauty of the girl he likes. He averts it to something lesser than, her manners. What do you think?

[Alexia]

I interpreted that scene as a guy who was uncomfortable with another guy discussing the beauty of the girl he likes. He averts it to something lesser than, her manners. What do you think?

Well, I think its partially that but the Tickler and Polliver and the others don't give a shit about Sansa Stark's good manners. And saying "a proper little lady," yes, I think he really dug that. Actually, going all crackpotty for a moment -- I was watching an interview with D&D where they talked about Sandor's attraction to Sansa as the kind of girl who would never look twice at him...give me a sec and I'll pull it up. Anyway, I think it is partially that: Sansa is beautiful and we all know quite well that he likes this. But he also is fascinated by her innocence, and I think that he is attracted by her courtesy. So she represents for him in a way what she represents for Tyrion, the sort of elegant, beautiful lady that he would like be spending time with if he had the option. Whereas Tyrion doesn't like the Castle Wall of Courtesy at all and prefers the sassy girls, for Sandor I think it represents that this is a really classy girl and he wants a really classy girl. Am I making any sense at all?

I'm going to look for that interview now but hope someone else can lend their analysis or tear mine apart, as the case may be!

[FacelessGirl]

Well, I think its partially that but the Tickler and Polliver and the others don't give a shit about Sansa Stark's good manners. And saying "a proper little lady," yes, I think he really dug that. Actually, going all crackpotty for a moment -- I was watching an interview with D&D where they talked about Sandor's attraction to Sansa as the kind of girl who would never look twice at him...give me a sec and I'll pull it up. Anyway, I think it is partially that: Sansa is beautiful and we all know quite well that he likes this. But he also is fascinated by her innocence, and I think that he is attracted by her courtesy. So she represents for him in a way what she represents for Tyrion, the sort of elegant, beautiful lady that he would like be spending time with if he had the option. Whereas Tyrion doesn't like the Castle Wall of Courtesy at all and prefers the sassy girls, for Sandor I think it represents that this is a really classy girl and he wants a really classy girl. Am I making any sense at all?

I'm going to look for that interview now but hope someone else can lend their analysis or tear mine apart, as the case may be!

I usually do understand what you're saying, Alexia and I tend to agree. Sandor and Tyrion are attracted to beautiful women, although Sandor would probably be the last to admit it. But what comes with in these pretty packages that matters to them it seems: Shae was gorgeous, a firecracker in bed, and said whatever the hell she wanted. Tyrion liked that because he himself is a bucket of witticism. Sandor teases Sansa for being courteous, a little talking bird and all that, but it's pretty clear it's attractive to him. This is a guy who'll tell you to fuck off! in a heartbeat if it suits him. Sansa is more refined and polite, the ultimate woman some would say in certain circles. I believe in their case it's a matter of opposites attract. :)

What do you think?

[brashcandy]

Well, I think its partially that but the Tickler and Polliver and the others don't give a shit about Sansa Stark's good manners. And saying "a proper little lady," yes, I think he really dug that. Actually, going all crackpotty for a moment -- I was watching an interview with D&D where they talked about Sandor's attraction to Sansa as the kind of girl who would never look twice at him...give me a sec and I'll pull it up. Anyway, I think it is partially that: Sansa is beautiful and we all know quite well that he likes this. But he also is fascinated by her innocence, and I think that he is attracted by her courtesy. So she represents for him in a way what she represents for Tyrion, the sort of elegant, beautiful lady that he would like be spending time with if he had the option. Whereas Tyrion doesn't like the Castle Wall of Courtesy at all and prefers the sassy girls, for Sandor I think it represents that this is a really classy girl and he wants a really classy girl. Am I making any sense at all?

I'm going to look for that interview now but hope someone else can lend their analysis or tear mine apart, as the case may be!

I do tend to agree with you here. Of course Sandor notices that Sansa is beautiful, but I think what really gets his fires burning (probably not an appropriate metaphor to use here :)

is the fact that Sansa is so pure, polite and innocent. It annoys the hell out of him, but he still wildly attracted to her for that very reason. He can't understand why she is so naive and optimistic about the world around her, in particular knights, but he still wants to somehow live up to that ideal for her.

It's funny cause it just supports the old cliche that opposites attract but in this case it is really true; that's why he could never fall for someone like Arya, she's just too mouthy and cynical. Sandor is probably accustomed to world weary whores, and Sansa is like this new born babe that he gets to poke fun at but secretly desires.

Oh and the fact that he had to sit down after hearing the news that she was married was hilarious! Never noticed that before, so thanks!

[FacelessGirl]

I do tend to agree with you here. Of course Sandor notices that Sansa is beautiful, but I think what really gets his fires burning (probably not an appropriate metaphor to use here :)

is the fact that Sansa is so pure, polite and innocent. It annoys the hell out of him, but he still wildly attracted to her for that very reason. He can't understand why she is so naive and optimistic about the world around her, in particular knights, but he still wants to somehow live up to that ideal for her.

It's funny cause it just supports the old cliche that opposites attract but in this case it is really true; that's why he could never fall for someone like Arya, she's just too mouthy and cynical. Sandor is probably accustomed to world weary whores, and Sansa is like this new born babe that he gets to poke fun at but secretly desires.

Oh and the fact that he had to sit down after hearing the news that she was married was hilarious! Never noticed that before, so thanks!

:agree:

[Alexia]

I do tend to agree with you here. Of course Sandor notices that Sansa is beautiful, but I think what really gets his fires burning (probably not an appropriate metaphor to use here :)

is the fact that Sansa is so pure, polite and innocent. It annoys the hell out of him, but he still wildly attracted to her for that very reason. He can't understand why she is so naive and optimistic about the world around her, in particular knights, but he still wants to somehow live up to that ideal for her.

I think it is most interesting in comparison with Tyrion's feelings about her courtesy. Tyrion thinks of the courtesy with resentment, he wants to breech her castle walls (and of course she's freezing him out). Sandor never got the Ice Queen treatment that Sansa gave Tyrion (what with her asking him if he was afraid of hell and all LOL) but I still don't have the sense that he wants to break down the walls of courtesy and bring out a spunky, sassy girl that I got with Tyrion. Rather that the courtesy, or her being a "proper little lady," gets him all hot and bothered. Since it is such a core part of her personality, that cool reserve, I think it is interesting to see how the various men who are interested in her respond to it.

[Starbird]

This is actually something that tells us how little experience the man has with women. You are supposed to close your eyes when you kiss, staring soulfully into each other's eyes throughout sounds...creepy. Sansa was reacting instinctively to an impending kiss (even though she didn't actually want him to kiss her in the moment).

I agree but I also think he's got issues with his burnt face, as in, it appears he thinks it makes him unlovable. He's forever demanding that Sansa look at his face. When she closes her eyes for the kiss, he says, "Still can't bear to look, can you?" So I don't think he was on the same mental path as she was. (If he'd thought even for a second she'd tolerate being kissed, I think he might have gone for it.) I think he needs to know that she can see past his face, even though I doubt he could articulate that to himself.

I actually think one of the most telling things about the Hound is the bit of his deathbed confession that doesn't warrant as much discussion on these boards: "I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her." This is the guy who spits on knights and their vows, but clearly the white cloak does represent something to him - some sort of ideal that he feels he's let down. We also saw that during the battle when Sansa brought him back to his senses and he tore off the cloak.

I have a different interpretation. Sandor knows what the white cloak represents to Sansa and he recognizes that he didn't live up to her, albeit unrealistic, standards. She may have been living in a fantasy world then but it seems he wanted to live up to her fantasy. When he tore the cloak off in her room, he was quite literally throwing in the towel. He (clumsily and drunkenly) tried to be what he thought she would want, and rescue the damsel in distress, and she unknowingly rejected him. So he gave up, ditched the cloak, and got the hell out of there.

Sure, but did she close her eyes in anticipation or did it look more like flinching? He was putting himself out there (albeit in a scary forceful way) and I think the slightest hint of fear, hesitation or revulsion would have put him off and made him angry.

She didn't want to kiss him. She was too afraid to refuse. Plus, as I suggested above, he's got face issues.

No way, he said that because Tyrion married Sansa. Here is the quote.

"King Joffrey is dead, you know," he added. "Poisoned at his own wedding feast."

"So uch for my brave brothers of the Kingsguard." The Hound gave a snort of contempt. "Who killed him?"

"The Imp, its thought. Him and his little wife."

"What wife?"

"I forgot, you've been hiding under a rock. The northern girl, Winterfell's daughter. We heard she killed the king with a spell, and afterward changed into a wolf with big leather wings like a bat and flew out a tower window. But she left the dwarf behind and Cersei means to have his head."

That's stupid, Arya thought. Sansa only knows songs, not spells, and she'd never marry the Imp.

The Hound sat on the bench closest to the door. His mouth twitched, but only the burned side. "She ought to dip him in wildfire and cook him. Or tickle him till the moon turns black." He raised his wine cup and drained it straightaway.

*snip*

"The little bird flew away, did she? Well, bloody good for her. She shit on the Imp's head and flew off.

"They'll find her," said Polliver. "If it takes half the gold in Casterly Rock."

"A pretty girl, I hear," said the Tickler. "Honey sweet." He smacked his lips and smiled.

"And courteous," the Hound agreed. "A proper little lady. Not like her bloody sister."

The man showed complete indifference when they said that Joffrey was killed, but he had to sit down to absorb the news of Sansa's marriage to Tyrion. And as an aside, I think it is rather interesting that the first thing the Tickler mentions is how pretty he heard Sansa was but Sandor Clegane promptly responds by referencing her courtesy. I really think that Sansa's elegance and courtesy are traits that attract him to her.

I interpreted that scene as a guy who was uncomfortable with another guy discussing the beauty of the girl he likes. He averts it to something lesser than, her manners. What do you think?

Hmm. Not sure it's Sansa's elegance and courtesy that attract him so much as her kindness, although I'm sure that's part of it. He knows he's a scary dude. He gets in her face and tells the story of what Gregor did to him and she comes out with, "He was no true knight," or something. She completely didn't react to his threatening behavior. And, IIRC, he laughs! I think that was probably when he start crushing on her.

As for the Tickler/Arya thing, I always kind of took that exchange as more of a dig to Arya. Like, 'oh, sure Sansa's pretty, unlike her pain in the ass sister who should take a page out of Sansa's book and stop trying to kill me all the time." I actually laughed out loud while reading that.

[brashcandy]

I think it is most interesting in comparison with Tyrion's feelings about her courtesy. Tyrion thinks of the courtesy with resentment, he wants to breech her castle walls (and of course she's freezing him out). Sandor never got the Ice Queen treatment that Sansa gave Tyrion (what with her asking him if he was afraid of hell and all LOL) but I still don't have the sense that he wants to break down the walls of courtesy and bring out a spunky, sassy girl that I got with Tyrion. Rather that the courtesy, or her being a "proper little lady," gets him all hot and bothered. Since it is such a core part of her personality, that cool reserve, I think it is interesting to see how the various men who are interested in her respond to it.

Yeah that will be something to see. Already in AFFC we could kinda see that it was beginning to annoy LF a bit. He was always telling her "don't you think that deserves a better kiss" etc etc.. the perve... and god only know what Harry the Heir will think, but he might be expecting someone with looser morals as well, until he discovers that she is really Sansa Stark.

But I think Sansa can be a little freak when it counts ;) She just needs to get older and more self assured and be around someone she actually likes.

Let's not forget that Sansa hides behind courtesy because that all she knows. At the Eyrie she might learn a thing or two from girls like Randa Royce.

Thoughts?

[FacelessGirl]

Yeah that will be something to see. Already in AFFC we could kinda see that it was beginning to annoy LF a bit. He was always telling her "don't you think that deserves a better kiss" etc etc.. the perve... and god only know what Harry the Heir will think, but he might be expecting someone with looser morals as well, until he discovers that she is really Sansa Stark.

But I think Sansa can be a little freak when it counts ;) She just needs to get older and more self assured and be around someone she actually likes.

Thoughts?

I think Sansa is brimming with LOADS of sexual tension and aggression. She'll release it one day... or night. And she will NEVER be the same again. Mark my words. ^_^

[Alexia]

Let's not forget that Sansa hides behind courtesy because that all she knows. At the Eyrie she might learn a thing or two from girls like Randa Royce.

Thoughts?

Haha, I thought it was hilarious when Sansa was all innocent and girly and asked Myranda if she thought Lothor Brune would like Mya better in her regular leathers or in silks and lace, and Myranda told her that he was a man and would like her better naked. :lol: Poor innocent Sansa!

I would like to see her interact more with Myranda. In her interactions with Margaery, I always felt that Margaery was an older and untraumatized version of Sansa. Myranda is a completely different personality type and I enjoyed their interactions in AFFC.

[Starbird]

Well, I think its partially that but the Tickler and Polliver and the others don't give a shit about Sansa Stark's good manners. And saying "a proper little lady," yes, I think he really dug that. Actually, going all crackpotty for a moment -- I was watching an interview with D&D where they talked about Sandor's attraction to Sansa as the kind of girl who would never look twice at him...give me a sec and I'll pull it up. Anyway, I think it is partially that: Sansa is beautiful and we all know quite well that he likes this. But he also is fascinated by her innocence, and I think that he is attracted by her courtesy. So she represents for him in a way what she represents for Tyrion, the sort of elegant, beautiful lady that he would like be spending time with if he had the option. Whereas Tyrion doesn't like the Castle Wall of Courtesy at all and prefers the sassy girls, for Sandor I think it represents that this is a really classy girl and he wants a really classy girl. Am I making any sense at all?

I'm going to look for that interview now but hope someone else can lend their analysis or tear mine apart, as the case may be!

I've seen this video before and agree with what's said. I think the Hound and Tyrion want opposite things out of the women in their lives. What woman feels she needs to impress burned,crass Sandor? So being treated with courtesy is a breath of fresh air for him. Tyrion, on the other hand, what with all of his gold and power, probably gets nothing but courtesy from the average woman at court and, so, honesty is a breath of fresh air for him.

Sandor and Tyrion are attracted to beautiful women, although Sandor would probably be the last to admit it.

Don't all men like beautiful women? :) The Hound has self-esteem issues stemming from his scars. He thinks he can't get a beautiful woman because a beautiful woman is capable of attracting a better looking man than he is. And that probably hurts him. After all, he wasn't born scarred. He's tall, heavily muscled, and has dark hair and grey eyes (right?). No one's said Gregor's a looker but it sounds like the Hound has the makings of a good-looking guy, possibly. So what might have once been in his grasp has been put out of reach by Gregor's cruelty.

[Alexia]

I've seen this video before and agree with what's said. I think the Hound and Tyrion want opposite things out of the women in their lives. What woman feels she needs to impress burned,crass Sandor?

Literally my favorite Sansa moment is when she asks him why he lets everyone call him a dog. And I love how she doesn't know what to call him since he isn't a ser and he isn't a dog, and opts for my lord all the time.

Agree with everything you said btw. :) Except that I don't think that honesty is the best word choice for what Tyrion is looking for.

[FacelessGirl]

That was an Aww moment for me, when Sansa suspects that Lothor is in love with Mya. Aww! :D

But yes I too want to see how Myranda and Sansa's relationship progresses. I was weary of her at first, but at this point Sansa really needs a female companion to teach her a few things. ;)

[brashcandy]

I think Sansa is brimming with LOADS of sexual tension and aggression. She'll release it one day... or night. And she will NEVER be the same again. Mark my words. ^_^

So true! Remember all of Lysa's Arryn's screams she had to endure :) She knows the effect she has on men, and she'll be a fierce one for sure.

Yup Alexia, Randa is pretty randy :) And she seems hell bent on bringing Sansa out of her shell!

[brashcandy]

That was an Aww moment for me, when Sansa suspects that Lothor is in love with Mya. Aww! :D

But yes I too want to see how Myranda and Sansa's relationship progresses. I was weary of her at first, but at this point Sansa really needs a female companion to teach her a few things. ;)

It was a cute moment :) and I was also thinking jeez, couldn't Jeyne have been around to ask Sansa, "So do you think the Hound prefers you in lace or... " ;)

[Starbird]

Except that I don't think that honesty is the best word choice for what Tyrion is looking for.

Okay. How about "not sucking up to him all the time because of his wealth and power?" :)

[Alexia]

It was a cute moment :) and I was also thinking jeez, couldn't Jeyne have been around to ask Sansa, "So do you think the Hound prefers you in lace or... " ;)

Bwahaha! Yeah, not going to touch that.... :lol:

Okay. How about "not sucking up to him all the time because of his wealth and power?" :)

But that is exactly what Shae and his other whores do. I think he wants a woman who makes him feel sexy (like Jaime?) and with a personality similar to his own; a girl who is fond of dirty jokes and with a sharp wit for him to go toe to toe with. With Sandor, I think he wants to be wanted but I don't get quite the same feelings of inadequacy rolling off him that I do from Tyrion. He is very cognizant of his scars and wants Sansa to look in his face but while Sandor and Tyrion both look for validation, they don't perceive validation in quite the same way.

[Starbird]

But that is exactly what Shae and his other whores do. I think he wants a woman who makes him feel sexy (like Jaime?) and with a personality similar to his own; a girl who is fond of dirty jokes and with a sharp wit for him to go toe to toe with. With Sandor, I think he wants to be wanted but I don't get quite the same feelings of inadequacy rolling off him that I do from Tyrion. He is very cognizant of his scars and wants Sansa to look in his face but while Sandor and Tyrion both look for validation, they don't perceive validation in quite the same way.

Yes, that's what I was trying to say. He wants a challenge. Maybe I was thinking of TV Shae rather than book Shae. (Thinking of the scene where she doesn't want to play his drinking game with him and Bronn.)

That's funny. I've never thought of Tyrion as feeling inadequate. Hmm. I don't think anyone would guess he felt inadequate, given his penchant for mouthing off. He's definitely got daddy issues.

I think Sandor knows he's a capable guy. Even his peers are afraid of him.

I agree they perceive validation differently. They're nearly polar opposites. (Tall, short; skilled at arms, not; loves Sansa, doesn't love Sansa; not married to Sansa, married to Sansa, new money, old money. About the only thing they have in common is their deficiency in the looks department.)