Sansa's memory related to Sandor

[brashcandy]

Yes, that's what I was trying to say. He wants a challenge. Maybe I was thinking of TV Shae rather than book Shae. (Thinking of the scene where she doesn't want to play his drinking game with him and Bronn.)

That's funny. I've never thought of Tyrion as feeling inadequate. Hmm. I don't think anyone would guess he felt inadequate, given his penchant for mouthing off. He's definitely got daddy issues.

I think Sandor knows he's a capable guy. Even his peers are afraid of him.

I agree they perceive validation differently. They're nearly polar opposites. (Tall, short; skilled at arms, not; loves Sansa, doesn't love Sansa; not married to Sansa, married to Sansa, new money, old money. About the only thing they have in common is their deficiency in the looks department.)

Yeah, Tyrion definitely feels inadequate, he knows that women just sleep with him because he's a Lannister, and he's constantly searching for validation that they truly want him. Sandor on the other hand, seems to be more of a realist. He knows he's no prize catch, but he also can't abide by lies and flattery either. This is why when he sees that Sansa still won't look at him, he gets so mad, because it appears as though she won't face the reality of him and how he looks. It's like, take me as I am or don't take me at all. It might hurt a lot now, but it'll hurt more in the long run when I find out that you never wanted me. He isn't a gentleman, he isn't a knight, he isn't Loras Tyrell - not even with the lights off. So Sansa has to come to grips with the hard facts.

This is where Tyrion goes wrong. He allows himself to be bought into the fantasy of Shae really loving him, and I'm not saying he's absolutely to blame here, but he tries to be all things to her and doesn't realize the truth until it is too late.

[FacelessGirl]

LOL I'm pretty sure you Sandor would prefer her in the nu--. ;)

Lysa Arryn always creeped me out, but learning she's a screamer was just :stillsick: :shocked:

[brashcandy]

LOL I'm pretty sure you Sandor would prefer her in the nu--. ;)

Lysa Arryn always creeped me out, but learning she's a screamer was just :stillsick: :shocked:

I know! How freakyyyy was that! Westerosi women never cease to amaze :) Please reassure me that it's ok to be imagining Sandor and Sansa in bed... I mean, I blame GRRM but I just can't seem to stop my mind from going there :blush:

[FacelessGirl]

I know! How freakyyyy was that! Westerosi women never cease to amaze :) Please reassure me that it's ok to be imagining Sandor and Sansa in bed... I mean, I blame GRRM but I just can't seem to stop my mind from going there :blush:

LOL you are not alone! ;)

It makes me laugh thinking of Littlefinger going to the bedroom to perform his husbandry duties. He didn't want to but apparently he performed like a champ. ;)

[brashcandy]

LOL you are not alone! ;)

It makes me laugh thinking of Littlefinger going to the bedroom to perform his husbandry duties. He didn't want to but apparently he performed like a champ. ;)

I know :) I mean I hate LF but you do have to admire a man who is willing to go there to get the job done.

Seriously, what is going to keep all of us going until TWOW -I love contributing to other threads but anything with SanSan is my favourite! I'm gonna have to try to draw out a new theory about them...:)

[FacelessGirl]

I know :) I mean I hate LF but you do have to admire a man who is willing to go there to get the job done.

Seriously, what is going to keep all of us going until TWOW -I love contributing to other threads but anything with SanSan is my favourite! I'm gonna have to try to draw out a new theory about them...:)

I'm waiting for a few more Ayes before I start the Sandor Clegane Appreciation Thread. ;)

And Littlefinger... if there was ever a time you wanted to be laid properly, apparently go to him. ;)

[Tully to a T]

I'm waiting for a few more Ayes before I start the Sandor Clegane Appreciation Thread. ;)

Loving this thread with some of my favorite SanSan posters! Just had to jump in and say sign me up when you start the Sandor Clegane Appreciation Thread ... I'm in!

I had the saddest thought while reading through all the replies to Sansa's memory of the "Kiss That Wasn't" ... someone (in this thread or another one, not sure) said something like "I don't see the Hound as having loads of ex-girlfriends," a thought that had occurred to me as well, and it got me to wondering if he had ever had a woman who wasn't bought and paid for. Not that I have a problem with that, mind you, but then I thought about Tyrion's comment to (Jaime?) where he says that whores never kiss you on the mouth.

Which of course made me think ... and it breaks my heart to say this, but ... I think it's possible that our beloved Hound has even less experience with kissing than Sansa. Somehow this thought made me really sad. :frown5: I'm not trying to woobify, really I'm not, but it makes me sad to realize that this guy has probably rarely if ever been touched gently -- except by Sansa. I noticed during my second reading of the books just how many times he touches her with steel, though -- that's how he's used to expressing himself, showing that he's worth something -- even how he expresses desire. Okay, I know, sometimes a dagger is just a dagger (sorry, couldn't resist!), but the guy does seem to like to stick her with the pointy end ...

He gave her arm a hard wrench, pulling her around and shoving her down onto the bed. "I'll have that song. Florian and Jonquil, you said." His dagger was out, poised at her throat. "Sing, little bird. Sing for your little life."

Her throat was dry and tight with fear, and every song she had ever known had fled from her mind. Please don't kill me, she wanted to scream, please don't. She could feel him twisting the point, pushing it into her throat, and she almost closed her eyes again, but then she remembered.

This isn't the first time he has put steel to her throat, either ... one of my favorite scenes in the series so far is their conversation at the top of the tower where he basically tells her how he sees the world – he is harsh, yes, but also brutally honest:

"What do you think a knight is for, girl? You think it's all taking favors from ladies and looking fine in gold plate? Knights are for killing." He laid the edge of his longsword against her neck, just under her ear. Sansa could feel the sharpness of the steel.

This point in the book is literally when she turns the corner into adulthood – her body is flowering at literally the same moment as Sandor deflowers, if you will, her illusions:

”There are no true knights, no more than there are gods. If you can’t protect yourself, die and get out of the way of those who can. Sharp steel and strong arms rule this world, don’t ever believe any different.”

Sansa backed away from him. “You’re awful.”

“I’m honest. It’s the world that’s awful. Now fly away, little bird, I’m sick of you peeping at me.”

"I'm honest. It's the world that's awful." Seriously, if this scene, and that line, don't make it into the show, they will have really missed one of the great moments in the books. One of the things that makes this pairing amazing is that they take "Opposites Attract" to a crazy extreme, with Sandor at the one end speaking these almost nihilistic truths as he perceives them, and Sansa at the other end telling herself "some of the songs had to be real, they just had to." Somewhere in the middle is a healthy, functioning individual, but these two, sitting as they do at opposite ends of the fairy tale spectrum, have something really meaningful to teach each other.

[FacelessGirl]

Loving this thread with some of my favorite SanSan posters! Just had to jump in and say sign me up when you start the Sandor Clegane Appreciation Thread ... I'm in!

I had the saddest thought while reading through all the replies to Sansa's memory of the "Kiss That Wasn't" ... someone (in this thread or another one, not sure) said something like "I don't see the Hound as having loads of ex-girlfriends," a thought that had occurred to me as well, and it got me to wondering if he had ever had a woman who wasn't bought and paid for. Not that I have a problem with that, mind you, but then I thought about Tyrion's comment to (Jaime?) where he says that whores never kiss you on the mouth.

Which of course made me think ... and it breaks my heart to say this, but ... I think it's possible that our beloved Hound has even less experience with kissing than Sansa. Somehow this thought made me really sad. :frown5: I'm not trying to woobify, really I'm not, but it makes me sad to realize that this guy has probably rarely if ever been touched gently -- except by Sansa. I noticed during my second reading of the books just how many times he touches her with steel, though -- that's how he's used to expressing himself, showing that he's worth something -- even how he expresses desire. Okay, I know, sometimes a dagger is just a dagger (sorry, couldn't resist!), but the guy does seem to like to stick her with the pointy end ...

This isn't the first time he has put steel to her throat, either ... one of my favorite scenes in the series so far is their conversation at the top of the tower where he basically tells her how he sees the world – he is harsh, yes, but also brutally honest:

This point in the book is literally when she turns the corner into adulthood – her body is flowering at literally the same moment as Sandor deflowers, if you will, her illusions:

"I'm honest. It's the world that's awful." Seriously, if this scene, and that line, don't make it into the show, they will have really missed one of the great moments in the books. One of the things that makes this pairing amazing is that they take "Opposites Attract" to a crazy extreme, with Sandor at the one end speaking these almost nihilistic truths as he perceives them, and Sansa at the other end telling herself "some of the songs had to be real, they just had to." Somewhere in the middle is a healthy, functioning individual, but these two, sitting as they do at opposite ends of the fairy tale spectrum, have something really meaningful to teach each other.

Aww. Sorry but I can't help but woobify now. Thinking of it like that, no wonder the Blackwater episode was so awkward and desperate. If the only women he's been with were paid whores, Sandor truly doesn't know how to react and respond to normal women. He wants Sansa's admiration, affection and trust but just doesn't know how to express that. We won't even talk about the loveless household he grew up in. When he's faced with the prospect of genuine affection from a beautiful girl the vulnerable man beneath runs from it, unable to handle it so he begins to cry. But then the trained aggressive reactor in him tries to force it from her, hence the knife. Its like a battle of emotions within this man and even he didn't know what will win.

Am I rambling or did I make my point? :blush:

[brashcandy]

No, no rambling ;), and Tully to a T, thanks for bringing that down to a T for us :)

I think you're absolutely right by the way, that Sandor may really not have kissed ANYONE, not even Sansa, and dare I say that this could shed some light on the mismemory of the kiss? Don't see how yet though... but hey a new perspective is always good.

It's interesting cause I've always wondered if Sansa was correct in her view that the Hound pulled her closer in order to kiss her. Maybe this is simply what she thought... maybe he merely wanted her to get a good look at his face, and she brought her own desires into the mix.

It certainly would make sense that the Hound has never kissed before, if he only had whores, coupled with his ruined face...

Plus Tully to a T - those quotes about putting the dagger to her neck all the time - that naked steel- talk about phallic imagery! this is the only way he knows how to "make love" to her; but of course it's a very messed up way.

And one more point to what you said Tully, Sansa, at least symbolically, isn't a virgin anymore. She's been deflowered by the Hound :) Somehow, I'm really glad I got to write that. We'll always have that if we have nothing else :blush:

[FacelessGirl]

Hey ladies, the new Sandor Appreciation thread has been created! :D

[FacelessGirl]

No, no rambling ;), and Tully to a T, thanks for bringing that down to a T for us :)

I think you're absolutely right by the way, that Sandor may really not have kissed ANYONE, not even Sansa, and dare I say that this could shed some light on the mismemory of the kiss? Don't see how yet though... but hey a new perspective is always good.

It's interesting cause I've always wondered if Sansa was correct in her view that the Hound pulled her closer in order to kiss her. Maybe this is simply what she thought... maybe he merely wanted her to get a good look at his face, and she brought her own desires into the mix.

It certainly would make sense that the Hound has never kissed before, if he only had whores, coupled with his ruined face...

Plus Tully to a T - those quotes about putting the dagger to her neck all the time - that naked steel- talk about phallic imagery! this is the only way he knows how to "make love" to her; but of course it's a very messed up way.

And one more point to what you said Tully, Sansa, at least symbolically, isn't a virgin anymore. She's been deflowered by the Hound :) Somehow, I'm really glad I got to write that. We'll always have that if we have nothing else :blush:

I agree. I wrote earlier that Sandor was right on time in awakening Sansa's sexuality after her flowering. It's rather symbolic, if you ask me. ;)

[littlebird_]

It looks like I missed some interesting discussion. The point about Sandor liking that Sansa is a lady I think is very important and deep down this might be why Sansa goes back to him in her thoughts because he does seem to be the only man that liked her rather than her claim or her name. Also with Tyrion and Littlefinger, more so with Littlefinger, there was this need to have Sansa change, be someone else, be more affectionate and no real understanding of who Sansa is, it is more about their needs than Sansa's. Of course, Sandor and Sansa did not know each other either but Sandor seems to envy and hate the courtesy with which Sansa defines herself.

I don't know how much that will change with her, she's a bastard girl now and she's interacting with Myranda but I am not sure the cold exterior is something she can let go now. I also tend to think she had it to some extent even before King's Landing, she just built upon it as a defense mechanism, so you know she's not going to become like Myranda I don't think.

[brashcandy]

I agree. I wrote earlier that Sandor was right on time in awakening Sansa's sexuality after her flowering. It's rather symbolic, if you ask me. ;)

Hey FG, you're a squire now! moving on up in the world I see :)

I'm still a bloody sellsword!

[FacelessGirl]

Hey FG, you're a squire now! moving on up in the world I see :)

I'm still a bloody sellsword!

Yo I am a squire! I'm going places lol! :D

Don't worry... some of the coolest characters are sellswords. Think Bronn before the knighthood. ;)

[Été]

"I'm honest. It's the world that's awful." Seriously, if this scene, and that line, don't make it into the show, they will have really missed one of the great moments in the books. One of the things that makes this pairing amazing is that they take "Opposites Attract" to a crazy extreme, with Sandor at the one end speaking these almost nihilistic truths as he perceives them, and Sansa at the other end telling herself "some of the songs had to be real, they just had to." Somewhere in the middle is a healthy, functioning individual, but these two, sitting as they do at opposite ends of the fairy tale spectrum, have something really meaningful to teach each other.

What's equally awesome is the fact that he puts a sword to Sansa's throat and she doesn't so much as bat an eye. She would have been well within her rights to completely freak out there, but she hears him out.

[seadragon]

No way, he said that because Tyrion married Sansa. Here is the quote.

"King Joffrey is dead, you know," he added. "Poisoned at his own wedding feast."

"So uch for my brave brothers of the Kingsguard." The Hound gave a snort of contempt. "Who killed him?"

"The Imp, its thought. Him and his little wife."

"What wife?"

"I forgot, you've been hiding under a rock. The northern girl, Winterfell's daughter. We heard she killed the king with a spell, and afterward changed into a wolf with big leather wings like a bat and flew out a tower window. But she left the dwarf behind and Cersei means to have his head."

That's stupid, Arya thought. Sansa only knows songs, not spells, and she'd never marry the Imp.

The Hound sat on the bench closest to the door. His mouth twitched, but only the burned side. "She ought to dip him in wildfire and cook him. Or tickle him till the moon turns black." He raised his wine cup and drained it straightaway.

*snip*

"The little bird flew away, did she? Well, bloody good for her. She shit on the Imp's head and flew off.

"They'll find her," said Polliver. "If it takes half the gold in Casterly Rock."

"A pretty girl, I hear," said the Tickler. "Honey sweet." He smacked his lips and smiled.

"And courteous," the Hound agreed. "A proper little lady. Not like her bloody sister."

The man showed complete indifference when they said that Joffrey was killed, but he had to sit down to absorb the news of Sansa's marriage to Tyrion. And as an aside, I think it is rather interesting that the first thing the Tickler mentions is how pretty he heard Sansa was but Sandor Clegane promptly responds by referencing her courtesy. I really think that Sansa's elegance and courtesy are traits that attract him to her.

As the last thing Tickler says is that Cersei wants the dwarf's head before Sandor replies "She ought to dip him in wildfire and cook him", I've always thought he means Cersei. But now that I'm thinking about, he maybe says that not because Tyrion killed Joff, but because he married Sansa...

I also agree with the fact that her elegance and courteous manners really appeal to him. This is probably because she's the only person who treats him politely at all times, even when terrified, while the other people always seem to talk to him with at least some contempt.

This is a guy who'll tell you to fuck off! in a heartbeat if it suits him. Sansa is more refined and polite, the ultimate woman some would say in certain circles. I believe in their case it's a matter of opposites attract. :)

Exactly! :agree:

Edit: Oops! I missed quite a long and interesting discussion here, I see :).

[littlespider]

Aight, well this thread seems to have moved on already from a detailed analysis of the BBB scene, but I'll post my thoughts anyway. Sorry, didn't get a chance to do it before today.

And I'd also like to say that I don't mean to rain on the woobie parade, and I respect everyone's right to woob whenever and wherever they want.

One issue that frequently comes up in discussions of everyone's favorite SanSan scene is the specter of rape. "Did he intend to rape her?" "He didn't rape her! That means he's super nice!" "Wait, did he rape her?" But the other thing that comes up in discussion of this moment is just how damn romantic/sweet/etc. it is.

It's odd to me that those two atmospheric interpretations of the scene go together; I see them both there as well, and the fact that it's one of my favorite scenes is probably one of those reasons that sometimes I like Martin's work despite myself. Take Dany/Drogo, for example. Here goes my train of thought on their wedding night: Aw, poor Dany, she's really scared but it'll be ok because our man KD is a super stud! (She's 13.) Ooh, wow, that's kinda hot; they don't even speak the same language but somehow it's hot. (She's 13, FFS!) Aw, that's nice, he's sorta seducing her so her first time won't be as painful/terrifying/rapey. SHE'S THIRTEEN FOR FUCK'S SAKE AND GETTING FINGERED BY A BARBARIAN TWICE HER AGE MARTIN YOU ARE SUCH A GODDAMN PERVERT. Then I put the book down in a feminist huff for a bit. Then I go read Jezebel. Then I pick the book up and keep reading.

So with that in mind, and acknowledging fully the fact that, depending on my mood, I think the BBB scene is very sweet, sorta romantic, and potentially hot... To my mind the scene in Sansa's bedroom between her and Sandor is dripping with the threat of sexual violence, and I think sometimes this fact gets lost amidst the romantic speculation about their very strange, kinda sweet, but seriously messed up friendship, if you could call it that. A couple of Sansa's reactions and thoughts seem significant: "He was sleeping in my bed. What does he want here?" She's "too frightened to defy him." "He was too strong to fight. She closed her eyes, wanting it to be over.""Please don't kill me." This is a girl that arguably knows what constitutes rape in theory but (to my mind at least) doesn't know much about the mechanics of the act, and hasn't really been trained to honor her gut instincts. She's afraid but she's not entirely sure what she's afraid of.

A couple of you have raised the issue of the staging or who's where when, and I also think this is important for understanding just what Sansa's going through. She goes to her bedroom because she feels safe, she backs "away from the window, retreating toward the safety of her bed" and BAM, he snatches her, pulls her toward him, they talk for a minute, he yanks her around and pushes her down on the bed beside him and leans over her. This is already after she's tried to pull out of his grasp, and she's so terrified that her breathing is ragged. Then he pulls out the knife.

Now, we all giggle about the wang/knife/sword parallels because we think of English class and the fact that our hot English professor kept bringing up phallo-logo-centrism while he was wearing those tight hipster jeans. (Heh, or at least that's why I giggle.) But I do think, like others have said, that when he pulls the dagger it's a supremely loaded sexual threat, because of the posturing, because of the power dynamic between the two, because of the almost-out-of-control situation, and because he's big and strong and angry and can take anything that he damn well pleases at that moment. (It's quite poignant to me that of all the things that he could take from her, what he actually takes is a song.)

Then Sansa miraculously defuses the sitch, touches his face where she feels tears (woob sigh) and he leaves. But the details, as many of you have noted, are extremely fuzzy. He rises from the bed. There's the curiously detached sound of fabric tearing and the retreating footsteps. Perhaps she can't see anything at this moment and that accounts for the detached sounds. Then we have a time-gap before she "crawls" out of bed -- not "rises" or "gets up" or a more assertive verb. She's cold, and she curls up on the floor (why not her bed? does it not feel safe there anymore?) under that symbolically loaded cloak.

I have to be honest, the second time I read this scene, I was dead certain he'd raped her before leaving but after the song.* I think Martin sets up the scene for us to expect that, and Sansa reacts like a trauma victim, both immediately afterward, and later on in the books, as she goes back to this moment again and again, and each time makes it a little less frightening in her mind. The tearing of the cloak, the blood on white fabric (broken innocence), the knife, his anger, and the fact that he seems so dead set on destroying the idealistic innocence she has towards "true knights" -- all this seems to set up that expectation. But, I really don't think he did, and I think the "deathbed" confession to Arya is evidence of that. My sense is that he was honestly trying to get Arya to kill him, and if he'd done something like raping her sister, he probably would have told her.

But, overall, the scene is intensively suggestive of rape, and Sansa's mental response to it -- to revisit it over and over in her mind so that it's less frightening, and so that she has more control whereas really she had none -- seems to be that of someone who has experienced trauma. I think it would be interesting, when or if she meets up with Sandor again, if she were to remember what actually happened there. I do think he has a lot to answer for in this respect.

(*On my first read through I didn't pick up on any suppressed sexual tension at ALL between them and when I got to this scene I was all "wtf? that was weird." *shrugs, turns page*)

And woot! 100th post!

[Raksha the Demon]

Congratulations on the 100th post, littlespider!

One huge problem with the idea of a Sandor/Sansa relationship is that he's a psychologically messed up loose cannon and she was a scared little girl. I think they did share a sweet moment, one that surprised both of them, when Sansa sang and touched his cheek and he wept; but it could have gone down a lot worse. I am not sure Sandor intended rape when he came to her room; but he might have struck out at her in anger if she had said something different or shown anger.

As for GRRM being a pervert in the writing of Dany's wedding night, I don't see it that way. The world of ASoIaF does not share our condemnation of young girls' sexual activity with older men, in fact many girls are married before they are 14, often to older men, in Westeros. If you contrast the wedding nights of Dany and Sansa and Jeyne/Fake Arya; Dany seems to have definitely had the best deal out of the three in that she did seem to derive some sexual pleasure out of the consummation, and did not feel as humiliated as Jeyne and Sansa (who Tyrion sort of deflowered with his eyes, but left her physically untouched). Some of the daughters of noble houses seem to have been married off after the age of 12; perhaps with more concerned parents thinking they need to be at least 15 before they can safely bear children - I don't think Catelyn married before the age of 16, or Cersei; and Ned was definitely concerned about 11-year-old Sansa marrying Joffrey (Robert then said they could have the betrothal and wait a few years for the marriage). We don't know what the exact customs of the Dothraki are in regard to marriage; but if their life-spans are shorter, from all that fighting, then I could see the idea of a 13-year-old becoming Khaleesi and having the marriage consummated being considered normal. I don't think GRRM believes that it's a good thing for young girls to have sex with anyone, much less older men, but wrote what he considered sensible for the world he created and the points he was trying to make (that Dany matured and took advantage of every opportunity, and had, if only for a short time, the love and security of a happy marriage; and in AGOT she went from being sold to a barbarian as a trophy wife to being a powerful player in the Game of Thrones)

[Starbird]

Well said, littlespider. I'll admit that, on first reading this scene, I just found it straight-up hot. But then, I was inserting myself into the scene and not considering it from Sansa's terrified POV. Honestly, I never think much about Sansa in that scene at all. It's all me and Sandor, alone in the dark. I suspect most of us who love the Hound are doing the same. As a reader, I was already attracted to his strength, humor, and the kindness he's previously displayed towards Sansa, so, reading that for the first time, I was already fairly confident he'd never hurt her. I was more struck that he'd made such a bold move as to offer to take her with him when he left KL.

Unless I'm much mistaken, male readers aren't inserting themselves into the Hound's role because of the distastefulness of threatening a girl as young as Sansa (or, threatening anyone at all). They seem to admire his badassery in combat but are turned off by the rapey undertones in this exchange. I further assume, because they aren't subbing in for Sansa, that they don't get why women would look past those same rapy undertones. It's an interesting dichotomy.

[Tully to a T]

(haven't figured out how to use the multi-quotes, yet...)

He took a song and a kiss, and left me with nothing but a bloody cloak.

It made no matter. That day was done, and so was Sansa.

I take that to mean that the memory belongs to Sansa, but now she's only Alayne. That false memory is one of the parts of her now that connects her to being Sansa. She keeps revisiting it and thoughts of him, to hold on to her former identity.

She might not see him again, but I think holding on to those memories is holding on to her former identity and that might be the importance of it.

Yes, I see a parallel to this moment in Arya hiding Needle behind a brick before entering the temple of the Faceless Men. They are both surviving by becoming other people, but they are also both holding something close and secret in an attempt not to completely lose their "Stark-ness" if you will.