[TWoW Spoilers] Arianne I

[Calibandar]

I've been thinking that, too, but on the other hand so far he's come across as more of a spoiled brat than anyone you'd want to cheer for

Not to me Jon. He comes across quite ok from what I have seen, but I will say we have been given very little of Young Griff to decide whether or not he will become a great leader/character. He seems to be daring, willing to take risks. Also a bit hot tempered as per Tyrion's observation. He froze when the stone zombies attacked, but then on the other hand we also hear that he is as good in a one to one fight as "Duck", though he still has to grow before he reaches full adulthood. His choice to keep Duck as his first Kingsguard against Connington's counsel, and his decision to lead the attack to Storm's End, again against Connington's counsel, do not speak badly for him.

But as with so many things we are discussing, we really need Winds to show us the character for real, cause ADWD has only small snippets.

[Middy]

Im curious, a few people have mentioned the Boltons and how they are on the side of the lannisters. Currently that is true, but what happens when Jon announces that " Arya" is infact still missing and it is a random common girl the bastard has wedded.

If it was me, I would be very pissed at my new allies, and now months of work rallying the north, will have been wasted because he has no line to Winterfell, or the starks who have come for Arya the remaining heir to Eddard Stark.

Frankly, I dont see the Bolton / Lannister alliance lasting because of this blatant betrayel.

Edit.

I remember a few topics that hinted that the Boltons may realise she is not indeed the real Arya, but if the truth was out and she was declared false, surely this issue would still apply.

[longlivestark]

Im curious, a few people have mentioned the Boltons and how they are on the side of the lannisters. Currently that is true, but what happens when Jon announces that " Arya" is infact still missing and it is a random common girl the bastard has wedded.

If it was me, I would be very pissed at my new allies, and now months of work rallying the north, will have been wasted because he has no line to Winterfell, or the starks who have come for Arya the remaining heir to Eddard Stark.

Frankly, I dont see the Bolton / Lannister alliance lasting because of this blatant betrayel.

Edit.

I remember a few topics that hinted that the Boltons may realise she is not indeed the real Arya, but if the truth was out and she was declared false, surely this issue would still apply.

The Boltons knew from the start she was not Arya, that's why they worked so hard to convince people she was, or at least Roose knows.

[Jaqen Fett]

The Boltons knew from the start she was not Arya, that's why they worked so hard to convince people she was, or at least Roose knows.

Agreed...this is at least partly why Roose uses Theon to present her based on the logic that if someone who grew up with Arya acknowledges Jeyne as Arya then that lends more face credence to the story.

[Jaqen Fett]

YG seems like a normal teenage boy -- I don't think he's spoiled or idiotic at all. Like Viserys, this is a kid who grew up on the run and believed his birth-right was taken from him. Unlike Vis, who live in a manse and believe he was entitled because of who he was, YG endured grew up in a company of sellswords and learned that if he wanted something he would have to fight for it. YG has also been receiving an education while in exile, whereas Dany/Vis seemed to have no idea about Westeros. All in all I kind of like the kid. Even though Tyrion may have been goading him, YG sees the benefits of immediately heading to Westeros (political turmoil, increased power when meeting Dany). Plus, for purely selfish reasons I appreciate that he didn't spend 1,000s of pages hanging out in Essos daydreaming.

If I were to bet on why Arianne is heading to him, I would guess it is for political (i.e. not marriage) reasons. As the heir to Dorne, she would be the perfect face to deal with JC and YG. Plus, I doubt Doran would like these newcomers to know how feeble he is. Elia could just be along for the ride or she might be more than meets the eye like her sisters.

[Middy]

Yeah I dont disagree that Roose may know, the question is does Ramsay? Imo this could make for a fantastic plotline in the north.

Like a few other people I understand that part of ASOIAF revolves around the older generations coming to an end and newer characters coming and starting their story. This may be a crackpot theory but im expecting Roose to die soon. Like Eddard, Tywin,Robert, Jon Arryn and others ( Soon to be doran imo seeing his health state in ADWD) I believe Roose is next. Anyhow, the way this theory is connected is because I believe Roose knows about Arya and has failed to let his son know, I reckon this could put us on the lines for a Ramsay killing Roose and a disintegration of Bolton forces.

Anyway thats my speculation ^^

Im loving the spoilers for TWOW already, thanks for the thread guys.

[Aeryk Targaryen]

we really need Winds to show us the character for real, cause ADWD has only small snippets.

Agreed. I think Aegon is just more in a hurry to prove himself worthy and to make sure he doesn't fail all those depending on him rather than being a spoiled brat (Viserys) scheming to get his "birthright" back. It's probably quite frustrating to be trained from birth (more or less) on how to lead and be a semi-decent human being and then when the moment comes be told to just sit back and enjoy the ride; granted he's only 16, and all the rashness and naivety that comes with that, but I don't blame him for wanting to assert himself and make some actual decisions. I think we'll get a better feel for his character in tWoW and I expect to be pleased... of course liking a character seems to have a 50/50 shot at putting them on death row.

[Aeryk Targaryen]

If I were to bet on why Arianne is heading to him, I would guess it is for political (i.e. not marriage) reasons. As the heir to Dorne, she would be the perfect face to deal with JC and YG. Plus, I doubt Doran would like these newcomers to know how feeble he is. Elia could just be along for the ride or she might be more than meets the eye like her sisters.

I think that's pretty spot on; I don't really see Doran making it to the end of tWoW. But I think Doran sent Elia just to piss off Arianne, which is pretty damn funny.

[kg1982]

I've been thinking that, too, but on the other hand so far he's come across as more of a spoiled brat than anyone you'd want to cheer for.;)

He most certainly does. I think that is the point. We're not supposed to like him and think that he's an entitled snot.

[Jon Snow's Bastard]

So the other information that I have seen Trebla post from the Con is George confirming that the Ice Battle and the Fire Battle were both cut from ADWD. Massive shame of course, but goiod to see it confirmed again that we will definitly see the outcome of Stannis vs Bolton at Winterfell, and of course that we will see the Siege of Meereen. I wonder what role the Volantes will come to play in that siege by the way, but I am getting off topic.

What! This really makes me mad, and I am just left with disapointment. ADWD was a solid novel, despite Danys rambling nonsensical story line. (She had defeated the army besieging her before and she had taken the city she was in before. Just march out and meet the besiegers in open combat, where her unsullied couldnt be matched, and then come back and take the Meereen if it was foolish enough to rise) A nice fire battle would at least have moved the plot forward instead of leaving it in the exact place it started at the begining of the novel. He literally wasted all those pages on that story, he could have started ADWD with the battle he plans to start TWOW and nothing would have been lost artistically, it will be thrown into the novel the same way.

Dany was made to regress (to a normal level) in maturation so we could see her growth, into the great leader she will be, in a believable way. She did that, I think going forward she comes into her own (blood and fire) but I already believed it before ADWD and I found the backsliding offputting. Besides that, nothing else was accomplished on that side of the globe.

As for losing the ice battle in ADWD, oh well. That was a great story line and it would have been nice to have that bonus on the end, at the expense of a little less wordiness or a redundant point of view. Having that bit of closure would have made this current wait a little more bearable, but that is what you get for rushing an author (though this one seems to need it). If had the decades that tolkien had to perfect his entire work before he began publishing, I cant but help to think this glaring failure of self editing would have been rectified.

[Jon AS]

Not to me Jon. He comes across quite ok from what I have seen, but I will say we have been given very little of Young Griff to decide whether or not he will become a great leader/character.

YG seems like a normal teenage boy -- I don't think he's spoiled or idiotic at all. Like Viserys, this is a kid who grew up on the run and believed his birth-right was taken from him. Unlike Vis, who live in a manse and believe he was entitled because of who he was, YG endured grew up in a company of sellswords and learned that if he wanted something he would have to fight for it.

I think the best hint as to his character in ADWD was really his reaction to losing at Cyvasse: he simply can't handle it, displaying an attitude in the process that is, well, bratty. In light of this his insistence to lead the attack on Storm's End himself, despite his complete lack of experience and the fact that he is surrounded by people who have that experience in spades, comes off a lot less like Robb Stark leading the relief of Riverrun and a lot more like Joffrey wanting to attack Renly's army leading the city guard. And of course he is supposedly 18 years old, one would have thought that he'd be a bit more mature than either of the two.

The idea that behind his upbringing may have been a good one, but on the other hand, he actually has never known hardship the way Viserys or Danaerys have. He grew up protected, cared for and was told that not only was it his right to become king of Westeros, some very powerful people would see to it that this would happen when the time was right. On top of that he is supposed to be the perfect king. I think that situation is at least as likely to produce an arrogant, entitled egomaniac as it is a good leader and ruler.

But yeah, obviously he hasn't messed terribly so far, so maybe there's hope for him.

[Wouter]

What! This really makes me mad, and I am just left with disapointment. ADWD was a solid novel, despite Danys rambling nonsensical story line. (She had defeated the army besieging her before and she had taken the city she was in before. Just march out and meet the besiegers in open combat, where her unsullied couldnt be matched, and then come back and take the Meereen if it was foolish enough to rise)

Not the same army. Yunkai hired a lot of new sellswords (the original ones had defected to Dany, mostly), raised some troops (Ok, of dubious quality) itself and got a lot of reinforcements from allies like new Ghis and Tolos. Moreover, Volantis and Qarth are also supporting Yunkai now and a Volantene fleet is approaching.

Dany's forces aren't like they were in late ASOS either, because Dany felt she couldn't trust and control the dragons anymore, whereas she counted on them without reserve in the earlier battles.

She didn't take the city easily either, her knights had to come up with the "sewers plan" for that. It is noted more than once in ADWD that Meereen's walls are strong and the city won't go down easily.

As for "Aegon", jury is still out on him. He doesn't appear to be another Joffrey but so far he doesn't seem to be the idyllic prince that the Varys PR team portrays in their advertisements, either.

[kg1982]

YG seems like a normal teenage boy -- I don't think he's spoiled or idiotic at all. Like Viserys, this is a kid who grew up on the run and believed his birth-right was taken from him. Unlike Vis, who live in a manse and believe he was entitled because of who he was, YG endured grew up in a company of sellswords and learned that if he wanted something he would have to fight for it. YG has also been receiving an education while in exile, whereas Dany/Vis seemed to have no idea about Westeros. All in all I kind of like the kid. Even though Tyrion may have been goading him, YG sees the benefits of immediately heading to Westeros (political turmoil, increased power when meeting Dany). Plus, for purely selfish reasons I appreciate that he didn't spend 1,000s of pages hanging out in Essos daydreaming.

If I were to bet on why Arianne is heading to him, I would guess it is for political (i.e. not marriage) reasons. As the heir to Dorne, she would be the perfect face to deal with JC and YG. Plus, I doubt Doran would like these newcomers to know how feeble he is. Elia could just be along for the ride or she might be more than meets the eye like her sisters.

I actually think that Aegon had a much nicer upbringing than Dany and Viserys. They lost both of their parents when they were very young as well as their protector and surrogate father. They had to flee their home, Dragonstone, when they were very young and spent their childhoods fleeing across the free cities ahead of assassins. The only people who took them in were people who saw them as useful pawns or curiosities to amuse their dinner guests. Illyrio and Varys, who were so concerned about Aegon's upbringing, could have cared less that there were two other helpless Targaryen children wandering around the Free Cities. Illyrio only housed them once they fit into the plan and likely didn't care if Dany and Viserys ended up dead.

In contrast, Aegon had private tutors provided for him by Varys and Illyrio. He had a constant protector, Jon C. Illyrio provided him with all he needed to live comfortably. An army was given to him without him lifting a finger for it. I also got the sense that Jon C. wasn't that strict a disciplinarian and that Aegon basically got his way because he was the prince.

[History of Westeros]

I actually think that Aegon had a much nicer upbringing than Dany and Viserys. They lost both of their parents when they were very young as well as their protector and surrogate father. They had to flee their home, Dragonstone, when they were very young and spent their childhoods fleeing across the free cities ahead of assassins. The only people who took them in were people who saw them as useful pawns or curiosities to amuse their dinner guests. Illyrio and Varys, who were so concerned about Aegon's upbringing, could have cared less that their were two other helpless Targaryen children wandering around the Free Cities. Illyrio only housed them once they fit into the plan and likely didn't care if Dany and Viserys ended up dead in Westros.

In contrast, Aegon had private tutors provided for him by Varys and Illyrio. He had a constant protector, Jon C. Illyrio provided him with all he needed to live comfortably. An army was given to him without him lifting a finger for it. I also got the sense that Jon C. wasn't that strict a disciplinarian and that Aegon basically got his way because he was the prince.

I agree with all this except I do think JC was on the stricter side, but that's just inference. Nature and nuture, perhaps, are both on Aegon's side over Viserys.

[kg1982]

I agree with all this except I do think JC was on the stricter side, but that's just inference. Nature and nuture, perhaps, are both on Aegon's side over Viserys.

It seems like he is a strict disciplinarian with everyone except Aegon. Tyrion certainly gets the brunt of his strict love over his alcohol consumption. I think that JC is a softy toward Aegon because he was Connington's best friend and secret crush.

[Jon Snow's Bastard]

Not the same army. Yunkai hired a lot of new sellswords (the original ones had defected to Dany, mostly), raised some troops (Ok, of dubious quality) itself and got a lot of reinforcements from allies like new Ghis and Tolos. Moreover, Volantis and Qarth are also supporting Yunkai now and a Volantene fleet is approaching.

Dany's forces aren't like they were in late ASOS either, because Dany felt she couldn't trust and control the dragons anymore, whereas she counted on them without reserve in the earlier battles.

She didn't take the city easily either, her knights had to come up with the "sewers plan" for that. It is noted more than once in ADWD that Meereen's walls are strong and the city won't go down easily.

As for "Aegon", jury is still out on him. He doesn't appear to be another Joffrey but so far he doesn't seem to be the idyllic prince that the Varys PR team portrays in their advertisements, either.

I dont remember the dragons playing a large role in the yunkai battle, they were to young, the only reason they played such a role in astapor was because they had no army at the time (they sold it to dany). And now yunkai had 3 sell sword companies instead of 3, but now Dany had 2 instead of O. The leavies were the leavings that werent good enough for Yunkai in the first battle, so I am not sure how they are all that terrifying.

If Dany just left her walls and swept up this rabble, their would be no rallying point for the rest of the free cities to send reinforcements. They only got there because Dany dithered, worried about losing a city that wasnt hers and which she had already taken once.

And if the walls were so fearsome, she could have always torn them down before left for battle. (conquer or die :unsure: )

[Jon Snow's Bastard]

The features aren't common - but not super rare either, at least not in parts of Essos.

We have:

Serra (and by repute, other girls in Lys with similar colouring)

Jorah's whore in Selhorys

Ashara Dayne - ser Barristan says that Dany looks like she could be her daughter

the Velaryons of Driftmark, and the Celtigars of Claw's Island (IIRC)

surviving Blackfyre offspring

surviving offspring from Targ side-branches (Aerion Brightflame, possibly others)

Lets not forget the old Free Holds blood runs strong in Lys (hence the three white haired fair skinned sailors arya saw through the cat eyes).

[Jon Snow's Bastard]

As for "Aegon", jury is still out on him. He doesn't appear to be another Joffrey but so far he doesn't seem to be the idyllic prince that the Varys PR team portrays in their advertisements, either.

Targs have a tendency toward greatness and/or madness. I dont see either in "Aegon", rather some good qualities and some bad.

[serbrc]

Targs have a tendency toward greatness and/or madness. I dont see either in "Aegon", rather some good qualities and some bad.

This is what I saw too. He seems like a pretty normal teenager so far - a little hotheaded, but underneath that he seems like a decent guy (as we can see when he nominates a loyal friend, Duck, to his Kingsguard rather than making a political choice). Of course, we all know how long decent guys last in Westeros...

[Wouter]

I dont remember the dragons playing a large role in the yunkai battle, they were to young, the only reason they played such a role in astapor was because they had no army at the time (they sold it to dany). And now yunkai had 3 sell sword companies instead of 3, but now Dany had 2 instead of O. The levies were the leavings that werent good enough for Yunkai in the first battle, so I am not sure how they are all that terrifying.

I don't think Yunkai raised many soldiers itself for the first conflict, they were mostly counting on the sellswords. Brown Ben Plumm crossed over to Dany at least partly because of the dragons, and left her again when it became evident she couldn't control them anymore. That left Dany with 1 company.

Meanwhile, the Yunkai got a number of legions from new Ghis, raised Trebuchets, extra levies, got those slinger-men from Tolos and their new sellsword companies include a pretty large one (was it 5000 men?) whereas Dany's single remaining company has 500 or so. One sellsword company isn't equal to another, look at the Golden Company which seems by far the largest and most competent of the companies. Having that one on your side may be worth as much or more as most of the other companies together.