Drogon's size

[noobilly]

"DRACARIS!", Daenerys shouted, as the great black dragon crested the hill, suddenly darkening the massed Lannister forces below with his terrible shadow. Far below, men the size of ants scattered and ran for their lives, oaths and allegiances forgotten in the moment when Drogon pierced the air with his scrotumtightening scream. The cry of a predator come upon his unsuspecting prize just at the moment of its greatest vulnerability.

Unfortunately, Dany, having rounded the field to establish just that element of surprise, was now flying in the face of a gentle prevailing breeze, and as Drogon reared and spat the first great gout of boiling flame, the superheated air lifted dragon and rider high into the clear morning sky. Tossed by the cool seaside zephyr like a ribbon from a maiden's hair, the dragon, with his brittle hollow bones, tiny torso and enormous papery wings, was powerless to alter his course as the Breaker of Chains implored him to attack. "Dracaris, dracaris," she pleaded, but by then the lilting current had puffed them in range of the catapults of King's Landing. A rain of stones tore the frail balsa-wood dragon apart even where he floated and bobbed like a child's toy upon the Long Lake. The dragon evaporated in midair like an alchemist's trick, but Daenerys survived until the stones of Westeros rushed up to welcome her home at last.

THE END

I have to say this is one of the most hilarious endings imaginable.

Based on the chapter where Quentyn tries to catch a dragon, I recall the dragon was looking down on Quentyn, so Drogon should definitely be taller than Dany. Unless you mean his torso, which I think is pretty low-slung.

[boojam]

This did not make sense to me.

"Drogon gliding on torn and tattered wings....."

What the heck.

Ok so Drogon is kind of an 'adolescent' , tho he seems more mature than the other two, and bigger.

So my recollection is that George tells at one point that , well at least mature dragons, have almost plate armor scales, or something like that... almost impossible to bring down. The ones in ADwD seem to be able to be punctured, tho that seems to not really have much effect.

So one would expect even a not fully grown dragon to have wings stronger than Kevlar.

So where does this 'tatter' in the wind biz come from?

That on page 932 of my Kindle edition.

Also George drives me crazy, so in those last two Dany chapters he seems to say Dany has flown on Drogon several times.... yet , as much as George like to shmooze he only get a few details about Dany's riding.

After all Drogon shows up , at the end, apparently looking for her, ...

[StarkofWinterfell]

This did not make sense to me.

"Drogon gliding on torn and tattered wings....."

What the heck.

Ok so Drogon is kind of an 'adolescent' , tho he seems more mature than the other two, and bigger.

So my recollection is that George tells at one point that , well at least mature dragons, have almost plate armor scales, or something like that... almost impossible to bring down. The ones in ADwD seem to be able to be punctured, tho that seems to not really have much effect.

So one would expect even a not fully grown dragon to have wings stronger than Kevlar.

So where does this 'tatter' in the wind biz come from?

That on page 932 of my Kindle edition.

Also George drives me crazy, so in those last two Dany chapters he seems to say Dany has flown on Drogon several times.... yet , as much as George like to shmooze he only get a few details about Dany's riding.

After all Drogon shows up , at the end, apparently looking for her, ...

Except wings aren't made of scales....

[boojam]

Except wings aren't made of scales....

If these Dragons are as tough as George describes them their wings are not made out of tissue paper either.

My impression the wings are not webbed like bats, but are made of tougher stuff.

[Kadence]

Yeah I was kinda surprised at the "twenty foot wingspan" thing myself when I read it. As a reader I just ignored it, and pretended in my head that the dragon was bigger.

It's something I don't think Martin put much thought into and just thought "hey, twenty feet, that's big right?" without realizing that it really wasn't big at all. Even if the torso is outsized relative to the wings compared to real flying lizards, that still isn't very big. If they are larger than horses their wings should be longer than twenty feet or they'd look like shriveled midget wings.

Horses are like 7-8 feet in length and rhinos are 10-13 feet in length. A torso in between the size of a horse and a rhino would look kinda funny with only twenty foot wings.

Except wings aren't made of scales....

I'm not sure this is actually true - have we gotten a description of their wings? I myself didn't picture them as leathery on the bottom and not scaled, but with the top of the wing scaled. But that's just my mental image based on nothing. I'm not sure we've gotten a good description.

In any case the wings seem rather tough, much tougher than non-magical skin.

[Lord Damian]

Given Winters could last 2-4 years, Dany will prob invade Westeros in a year or less. The dragons will most likely be freed from the dongeons and feast on burned flesh of conquered enemies. they could grow more or atleast enough to bear more weight.

[alguien]

Don't have much to contribute to this thread, besides mentioning that I misread the topic as:

DROGO'S size

--and thought, "Jesus, we've officially spent too much time on this board."

[Spring Bass]

I remember reading somewhere that 10 kg/square meter is about the maximum wingload for sustained, powered flight in a realistic animal (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). You'd need something like 100 square meters of wing area to support a 1,000 kg flying creature (which includes the weight of the wings). I question whether such a creature could even get off the ground - and once it did, it would be much more of a glider than the active flapping fliers that Daenerys' dragons appear to be.

What Martinworld Dragons have is unrealistically strong muscles, going in tandem with their solid, heavy-in-iron-content bones (meaning that they're actually denser than normal creatures of the same size, but their bones are probably stronger pound for pound). It's unrealistic, but we're talking about creatures that have a core temperature hot enough to melt iron. The only thing that's realistic about them is that they're mostly wing and tail.

[11th Heaven]

Is it ever mentioned at what age/size a dragon is considered adult? Or is such a definition rendered obsolete due to the fact that they can keep growing indefinitely?

[Aegar]

I was just wondering (wandering? wtf. I've never been able to remember which is which.) if it makes any difference as to whether their wings are attached to their arms, or if they're separate. I know in ASOIAF they're attached, making the dragons more like wyverns, but does that change how flight works?

[noobilly]

Yeah I was kinda surprised at the "twenty foot wingspan" thing myself when I read it. As a reader I just ignored it, and pretended in my head that the dragon was bigger.

It's something I don't think Martin put much thought into and just thought "hey, twenty feet, that's big right?" without realizing that it really wasn't big at all. Even if the torso is outsized relative to the wings compared to real flying lizards, that still isn't very big. If they are larger than horses their wings should be longer than twenty feet or they'd look like shriveled midget wings.

Horses are like 7-8 feet in length and rhinos are 10-13 feet in length. A torso in between the size of a horse and a rhino would look kinda funny with only twenty foot wings.

I'm not sure this is actually true - have we gotten a description of their wings? I myself didn't picture them as leathery on the bottom and not scaled, but with the top of the wing scaled. But that's just my mental image based on nothing. I'm not sure we've gotten a good description.

In any case the wings seem rather tough, much tougher than non-magical skin.

I remember reading somewhere that 10 kg/square meter is about the maximum wingload for sustained, powered flight in a realistic animal (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). You'd need something like 100 square meters of wing area to support a 1,000 kg flying creature (which includes the weight of the wings). I question whether such a creature could even get off the ground - and once it did, it would be much more of a glider than the active flapping fliers that Daenerys' dragons appear to be.

What Martinworld Dragons have is unrealistically strong muscles, going in tandem with their solid, heavy-in-iron-content bones (meaning that they're actually denser than normal creatures of the same size, but their bones are probably stronger pound for pound). It's unrealistic, but we're talking about creatures that have a core temperature hot enough to melt iron. The only thing that's realistic about them is that they're mostly wing and tail.

At the moment, I think Drogon's torso would be smaller than a horse, since dragons are basically "snakes with wings", I would imagine his torso as maybe, twice of a large anaconda at most, which would still be smaller than a horse's torso. Don't think he would be 1000 kg yea, maybe 200 kgs at tops at the moment I think.

Though yes, if he reached a ton in weight, it would be very hard for me to imagine how he could fly properly without a magical explanation.

[JagLover]

Martin has said that Dragons don't make aerodynamic sense, and that they fly by magic.

But I raised the point before that a 20 foot wingspan still makes Drogon less than twice as big as an Albatross, which can have a 13 foot wingspan.

Daeny's dragons are still pitifully small when compared to Balerion the Black Dread, who cast entire villages into shadow when he flew over them, and who could swallow an aurochs whole. From that description, I would give Balerion a wingspan of at least 300 feet.

The point is, at this rate, Daeny's dragons will need another 10 years at least before they approach a size that will allow her to invade Westeros like Aegon the Conqueror did.

So we can expect Daeny to arrive in Westeros when the next summer arrives.

Daeny probably doesn't actually need the dragons as more than a symbol in order to conquer Westeros (though she will need them against the Others). If she hadn't hung around in Mereen she could have matched west with over ten thousand unsullied, two mercenary companies, and tens of thousands of freed slaves of varying fighting ability and enough gold to hire the ships to take her to Westeros and once there Dorne for certain, and possibly many others, would have flocked to her banner.

What forces she will eventually command is open to question after the mess in Mereen. It could be more if the slave army revolts and joins her and she adds more as she marches west. Or it could be allot less as plague and war reduce her army. But even so it is still entirely possible she will not need the Dragons to do any actual fighting.

[Calibandar]

Yeah I was kinda surprised at the "twenty foot wingspan" thing myself when I read it. As a reader I just ignored it, and pretended in my head that the dragon was bigger.

I think that is the idea that George is aiming for. George had planned that the dragons would grow to size in the 5 year gap. Now that that has been cut, he will use authorial fiat to make them big enough to matter. I don't think fans should look for too much consistency in this matter, going forward. They will grow as much as George needs them to grow, whether that makes sense with what seems likely or not. Personally I am fine with that. It is along similar lines as the young Stark children doing things above and beyond the call of duty for children of their age, because they were never supposed to be this young.

This is hwy George often refers to the chronology as his big headache.

[K-Raptor]

Yeah I was kinda surprised at the "twenty foot wingspan" thing myself when I read it. As a reader I just ignored it, and pretended in my head that the dragon was bigger.

It's something I don't think Martin put much thought into and just thought "hey, twenty feet, that's big right?" without realizing that it really wasn't big at all. Even if the torso is outsized relative to the wings compared to real flying lizards, that still isn't very big. If they are larger than horses their wings should be longer than twenty feet or they'd look like shriveled midget wings.

Horses are like 7-8 feet in length and rhinos are 10-13 feet in length. A torso in between the size of a horse and a rhino would look kinda funny with only twenty foot wings.

I'm not sure this is actually true - have we gotten a description of their wings? I myself didn't picture them as leathery on the bottom and not scaled, but with the top of the wing scaled. But that's just my mental image based on nothing. I'm not sure we've gotten a good description.

In any case the wings seem rather tough, much tougher than non-magical skin.

The wings are described in Quentyn's last chapter.

"Viserion launched himself from the ceiling, pale leather wings unfolding, spreading wide."

That said though, they could look like leather but might be much stronger than that.

[Ser Viserion Blackfyre]

I was rereading ADWD, and in the scene where Drogon carries Danaerys off from the fighting pits, his wingspan is described as "twenty feet from wingtip to wingtip", which seemed pretty big to me....

actually, i had the exact opposite reaction, "wow, 20' is incredibly small."

Martin has said that Dragons don't make aerodynamic sense, and that they fly by magic.

But I raised the point before that a 20 foot wingspan still makes Drogon less than twice as big as an Albatross, which can have a 13 foot wingspan.

Daeny's dragons are still pitifully small when compared to Balerion the Black Dread, who cast entire villages into shadow when he flew over them, and who could swallow an aurochs whole. From that description, I would give Balerion a wingspan of at least 300 feet.

The point is, at this rate, Daeny's dragons will need another 10 years at least before they approach a size that will allow her to invade Westeros like Aegon the Conqueror did.

So we can expect Daeny to arrive in Westeros when the next summer arrives.

am i the only reader who has no problem with this? just by my physics/ scientific intuition makes me feel that dragons, with all there might, magic, and power of a nuclear bomb, would need years to grow and mature from the size of a gecko in to anything useful. and by useful i mean 1/2 or maybe even 1/3 of Aegon's monstrosities. my "suspension of disbelief" switch switched off at 20'. and even if it's wingspan was 3 to 5 times that it would be harder for me to believe because they're still only 1 to 2 years old!!

[MikeL]

Well there's realism and then there's realism right?

Can we stop comparing dragons to the flight dynamics of either pterosaurs or albatrosses? In contrast to those *gliders*, dragons *flap* their wings (and each flap sounds like a clap of thunder - which is pretty much would need to happen in order to get the down force required).

I guess I always imagined their growth to be somewhat like a tree - an early growth spurt followed by more gradual/continual development:

In ACOK they were described as being roughly the size of chickens (~10kg)

In ASOS they had quickly grown to be too big/heavy to sit on her shoulder - maybe 4ft long/wide ~40kg, with Drogon closer to 5/6ft (50kg)

In early AFFC/ADWD they were 10-12ft long/wide (120kg), Drogon 15ft (160kg)

By late AFFC/ADWD they are 15ft (160kg), Drogon 20ft (220kg),

Presuming Dany is ~50kg and Drogon is working hard, I'd imagined him being just big enough to take her weight. If she sits on his "shoulders" where his neck joins his torso, he's probably about as round as a horse at the time she rides him. Drogon is able to break the back of a horse in the end of ADWD, in much the same way that a peregrine falcon (which weighs about 1 kg) attacks birds 2-3x its own weight (horses can weigh up to 500kg).

If Balerion the dread was 300ft at 200 years old (~5 tonnes?), I'm thinking we can expect to see Drogon get to at least 80ft (1000kg) by the end of ASOIAF, at which point he will be closer to 10 years old. There are all sorts of physiological reasons why real flying creatures (as opposed to gliders) can't get this big, but at a certain point I think you have to accept this is fantasy.

[Cyl]

There is also Sequential hermaphroditism in which a male can change into a female and female into a male.

It is not uncommon in fish, gastropods and plants.... as for dragons... do they have taxonomic rank?

IIRC, Maester Aemon's description sounded a lot like they were sequential hermaphrodites.

But while we're on the subject, there's also a such thing as simultaneous hermaphrodites (male and female parts at the same time).

[QhorinHalfhand]

well, GRRM also never refers to dragons taking a shit. therefore, they probably use the waste for a: napalm batches, b: jet drive( they kind of fart violently beneath scales which might open freely, like kind of hatches, depending on the way they wanna go). and wings are there just for the show. and, also, if they are controlled, well trained, they can, without ignating fire in their mouth simply spit pepperspray/teargas like fluid, which turns out to be splendid way to deal with rioting mob.

[FittleLinger]

Rhaegal's head was bigger than a horse so we can assume that Drogon's is much bigger. I think 20 feet tip to tip is a bit smallish to be called a "monster sized" dragon. That would give the dragon around 7-9 foot wings if you give a slinder 2-4 foot body. My body stretched out as far as it can go is about 8-9 feet which is not very big for a huge dragon.

An F-15 has a 42 foot wing span and is a "smallish" plane. From the description I would assume at least twenty feet for each wings and a body that's at least 4 feet wide. Especially if arrows and crossbolts had little effect besides tattering wings a bit. From the TV show the dragons are bat winged/like bipeds http://1.bp.blogspot.../dragonsice.jpg so there wings would be very big in comparison to their bodies.

What? No, it was not. That was allegedly Balerion, and even probably overestimeted as he is almost mythical now.

We don't know what's the relation between a dragon's body and their wingspan, but they have been compared with serpents a few times, so I think their bodies are larger (as compared to birds with the same wingspan). But yeah, they are not that big, I imagine Drogon as a large winged stallion.

[Edtard]

Dragons fly by eating particularly spicy Dornish food and propelling themselves with highly explosive fire farts.